Show of HandsShow of Hands

Show Of Hands May 25th, 2012 12:00am

On economic issues, are you more liberal or conservative?

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cancerx Alabama
05/26/12 12:23 am

Yay America!!! Patriotism or irony. You'll never know.

mixhead Oregon
05/26/12 12:15 am

Sorry I had to go on a long rant. I'm very passionate about this topic. I got to go sleep now and wake up for a hike!

I love Oregon.

mixhead Oregon
05/26/12 12:14 am

And I gotta to add if it's not obvious, a centrally planned economy cannot be a free economy. That's an Austrian economics view. We've had many central banks all throughout history even before America was founded, so this debate hits the core.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/26/12 12:12 am

@mixhead: can you point to an economic bubble between WWII and 1981 that I can research?

mixhead Oregon
05/26/12 12:12 am

@Praetorian A simple way to put it is..
Keynesian economics is where the economy is centrally planned usually by a central bank.
Austrian economics is the highest theory backing a true free market.

I HIGHLY recommend looking into them both. It's a very intriguing debate and not difficult.

mixhead Oregon
05/26/12 12:06 am

So, The Federal Reserve which is "the lender of last resort" its like a giant credit card. When used, it gives the illusion that the economy is doing great. It stimulates all charts such as the GPD yet ignores all the future consequences. Bubbles get bigger until the currency is killed. The end.

mixhead Oregon
05/26/12 12:00 am

Since there was never enough capital to back the risky investments, the bill is footed through bailouts and the poor and middle class foot suffer with even more inflation.

mixhead Oregon
05/25/12 11:57 pm

When the Fed keeps interest rates low they send signals to investors that the risk is not bad. They then make risky investment which creates a boom in the market, GDP goes up, but resources are misallocated, so further down the road that bubble pops.

mixhead Oregon
05/25/12 11:52 pm

The manipulation of interest rates by the Federal Reserve is another harmful policy. Interest rates are signals for investors to determine the risk involved. High interest rates means hardly any capital to lean back on where low rates means less risk do to sufficient capital.

mixhead Oregon
05/25/12 11:47 pm

While the money has value it's also used to consume out of our productive economy.. When they print money, it's a tax on the poor and middle class which comes in the form of high prices. This is how the poor and middle class is truly robbed of their wealth.

05/25/12 11:47 pm

@Trav: I've seen it in Europe: once you pass a certain threshold you pay disproportionately more income tax.
I'm a two continent guy ;)

Otherwise : And what's Keynasian and Austrian in that respect?

mixhead Oregon
05/25/12 11:44 pm

Reagenomics had the right idea but the money trickling down had lost value. When the gov prints money, its given out usually in the form of loans to big banks then to the corporations, while the money still has value but as the money slowly trickles down to us, it lost its original value.

mixhead Oregon
05/25/12 11:39 pm

The gov does not produce anything. When we are taxed, the gov employees are first paid and use the funds to consume out of the productive economy. The rest is hopefully used for services without ever contributing any true value in forms of production. The gov FEEDS off our productive economy.

mixhead Oregon
05/25/12 11:34 pm

This hybrid is more heavily balanced towards a Keynesian system. I personally find the Austrian system far more sound and founded on moral principal.

trav Instagram, travisdover
05/25/12 11:32 pm

A rich person pays the same taxes that a poor person pays on the first $10,000 dollars. The rich person just pays a slightly higher percentage on the money they make over $100,000.

mixhead Oregon
05/25/12 11:29 pm

Sounds like to me a very stereo typical right vs left debate is occurring on this forum, which happens when the very root topics are ignored. It's really a clash between Keynesian vs Austrian economic theory but we currently have a hybrid, which obviously doesn't work.

trav Instagram, travisdover
05/25/12 11:29 pm

Praetorian: That's impossible that someone would have less take home pay from making more money

05/25/12 11:28 pm

I'm okay with tax breaks for low income households btw if they really can't make ends meet - it would be a burden if they wind up homeless.

05/25/12 11:25 pm

Also, within the middle class it would be very bad if someone declines a raise or better position because progressive taxes would make him have less in the pocket than before.
It stifles attempts at personal progress.
My suggestion: flat proportional income tax for everybody.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 11:06 pm

"But please! Don't ever raise taxes on the rich!"

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 11:06 pm

Most of those soldiers in the military are not from rich families. The poor are always the ones that have to sacrifice the most.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 11:04 pm

@mrken: again, with that conservative mindset that the poor are just leeches...smh. People with less incomes pay more of their income in sales tax, utility taxes, gasoline taxes. They give plenty. Our military is peopled by those who come from low income families.

fadinho michigan
05/25/12 10:59 pm

When you walk in a nice neighborhood you say Congratulations and I will be joining you soon, says Marco Rubio. Unless you're as smart as Zuckerberg or Gates, you are SOL in the american economic system. Capitalism is fair when the market is really free competition and not monopolized as it is now.

05/25/12 10:43 pm

Tony, wrong!!! It's about teaching value and making sure everyone has a vested interest in the success of OUR society. I don't want to have the "givers and takers" or "have and have nots." We all owe something!

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 10:42 pm

@praetorian: raising taxes on the rich is not the end all, be all solution (I don't think anyone has made that assertion). It's only one part of the solutions I described earlier for returning to fiscal responsibility.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 10:39 pm

@tcby: then this is where we disagree compadre. I just find it incredible that conservatives are really convinced that the people are not rich because they want to be and are just too lazy/undisciplined. Conservatives would rather see the poor pay more taxes than raise the rate on the rich 1 cent.

05/25/12 10:37 pm

The rich are a minority but contribute a lot to the economy by investing and creating jobs.
Punishing them with outrageous taxes would not bring that much revenue but send the wrong signal.

05/25/12 10:17 pm

@Tony, not if that means taking half the earnings of the top 10%.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 10:15 pm

How about the fact that wages have remained stagnant for the past (you've guessed it) 30 years? Reaganomics strikes again. Is it so unreasonable to think we should return to economic policy that was in place before things started getting bad?

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 10:13 pm

@tcby: totally agree, household debt has risen and is out of control. In your mind could it be possible other factors are in play besides mismanagement? The #1 reason for bankruptcies is healthcare costs. Could another cause be that purchasing power has gone down whole cost of living gone up?

05/25/12 10:00 pm

And, FYI, 70% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck ... but carry (tens of) thousands in credit card debt and car loans.

There IS a gross mismanagement of personal funds because people have NO self-discipline or concept of saving for what they desire.

The wealthy should NOT pay for that mess.

05/25/12 9:54 pm

Tony2k79, from my experience, people with the earnings you describe DO pay it forward. Maybe not to the causes you support and not to the FED GOVT.

Altruistic & benevolent giving should not be dictated, but from the heart.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 9:49 pm

@tcby: yes, duty. Paying it forward so that this land of opportunity that allowed them to be wealthy, remains a land of opportunity. I dont know what to tell you if you think that the only thing holding people back is mismanagement of funds. Things are more complex than that.

05/25/12 9:43 pm

Stupidity & selfishness.

05/25/12 9:42 pm

@tony2k79, it's the "duty" of top 10% earners to give up HALF of their earnings?!

If the bottom 90% learned to manage their income (i.e. not accumulate thousands in credit card debt, car loans, etc) & live within their means, they too could quickly build wealth. Too bad our govt rewards stupidity.

05/25/12 9:37 pm

I'm with you Tony2k79

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 9:30 pm

@tcby: it's not a favor or a handout. It's a duty. The past 30yrs have proven that wealth gets hoarded at the top, decreasing upward mobility. Reaganomics has failed, it's only justice that we put the taxrates back to where they were b4 he even took office. Like when we had a strong middle class.

05/25/12 9:16 pm

@Tony2k79, raise taxes of the top 10% to 40-50%?! Seriously? Why punish people for being successful in the land of dreams & opportunity? Tax rates shouldn't change based on income. The rich don't owe anyone a favor or a handout.

NYevo NY
05/25/12 9:09 pm

Most laws passed by the government were agreed upon by both parties. Dont like medicare/medicaid/social security. Blame your party. They were involved. Ask them why they didnt fully fund it with tax dollars or paygo. They made an unfunded law.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 9:06 pm

Unfortunately the oligarchy will not allow this since they're making too much money. The golden rule: whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

tony2k79 Victorville
05/25/12 9:05 pm

Cut defense spending by 10%. Eliminate ALL subsidies. Raise taxes of top 10% earners to 40-50%. End the drug war. Expand Medicare to everyone, use the buying power of the people to FORCE health care costs down. Allow importation of prescription drugs. You're welcom, I just solved Americas problems.

NYevo NY
05/25/12 9:04 pm

@cws: sooo if i support gay marriage, i'm fiscally conservative? That makes no sense

05/25/12 9:01 pm

+1 gunfighter. And look up the Libertarian party and people like Gary Johnson as well.

Libertarian party is gonna be the great new thing cuz like these polls show, most people are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. So were our founding fathers. It's the all American party.

05/25/12 8:56 pm

If you're socially liberal and fiscally conservative, look up Ron Paul. Educate yourself.

05/25/12 8:34 pm

Why should the govt be better than the people who elected it?
Less govt is fine but imagine everything went to ballot.
The majority knows little about complicated economic issues, it's like giving a loaded gun to a toddler.
But more govt oppresses freedom.
It's bad either way.

MDB Texas
05/25/12 8:09 pm

Bri-and, The problem is that you want to be altruistic with MY money. I can do that myself.