Are you in favor of Federal funding of embryonic stem-cell research?
Kill one to save another. The ends do justify the means. Thanks machiavelli.
Kill one? Huh?
I'm against most nonessential government spending.
Remember the good ol days when universities, corporations and private donors funded research products?
That's because we weren't born then. The National Cancer Institute began in 1937, Center for Scientific Review 1946. (OK, I was born that year.) But the roots really go back at least to the 1870s when congress budgeted the National Board of Health.
Oh let the capitalist system handle it.
Then we don't need the government to fund it.
I think stem cells have some amazing powers for healing but we need to create clear and strict laws on their use. That part could be tricky
Dear Susanr - CHILL THE F OUT about the SOH 2.1 update. Holy crap, we can check our app store notifications for ourselves. CHILL with the billion comments about it
Sounds like you need to chill the fck out, snivel btch.
Hi to you too. I realize it looks a tad obnoxious, but I'm taking to people who are stuck in 2.0-land. They're seeing only 3-4 comments in each of the SOH polls. I'm willing to help them get updated, if that doesn't put you out too much.
And this is the only way I can get a message to them.
Susan, you don't owe this turd sandwich an explanation.
Just ignore him Susan, you're helping people, there's nothing wrong with that
Yeah but I understand it does look a little obnoxious, if you don't realize the 2.0 people aren't seeing any of these messages - or any 2.1-user-created polls at all.
2.1 froze up on me. I had to delete and reinstall. Anyone else have problems?
I think he ment it as kind of a joke not to be mean. I thought it was kinda funny too and rj i think she seems like she can handle herself and without the childish name calling
Thank you Steve, and yes I meant it in jest as a because I'd seen the comment EVERYWHERE & obviously she isn't Tony so I found it odd. But yes thank you RJ for flipping out and jumping into an argument you weren't involved in to namecall Very classy.
@susanr I wasn't trying to attack you or anything, I was just giving you a tough time . If I offended you I'm sorry, I like to horse around and the general climate here tends to be people taking digs at each other. No malic intended.
Now then I'm heading back out to my rare & beautiful mid 80s summer day in KC. First time in forever it isn't blistering hot out, outdoor workout machines @ volker park here I come. Woot woot!
gjb - I truly don't understand how that was supposed to be a joke. It sounded royally pissed, to me. And "billions" of messages I posted consisted of exactly 10 total in 4 polls - only 2 in this one. If I can help a few people, it's worth it, to me.
I like how 7 of the top 8 comments are RJ's. And the top comment is about him.
It's how I roll.
Because he knows what the hell he's doing. I'm so glad he's here.
I would expect nothing less!
If it isn't specifically called for in the constitution the government has no business doing it. I hate the fact that a nameless gov official is able to point the gun of the government at me demand money and spend it at will
Fight back or shut the fuck up.
All you sound like is a pissed off teenage girl who can't go to the mall.
"If it isn't specifically called for in the constitution" the govt shouldn't do it? Interesting philosophy. Would you prefer the states take over?
I'm always in favor of funding for research, no matter the source.
Or price apparently
If it is such a good idea, why don't you put your own money in.
We do. We invest our lives in it, btw.
Have you RJ
I am I biotech. I work for a company that is on the fore-front of non-embryonic stem cell research. I invest in my work, as well as in companies that do this type of work.
Congrats, thank you for your investment.
It's one of the things I actually want the govt to spend money on.
Why must everything be "federally funded."
Because no one would would spend their own money on it. Only way they can get this funded is to spend our money.
Exactly ... They're not in a position to add expenditures. Period.
Because thanks to the "perfection" of the market, private companies rarely invest when there isn't a clear chance for a R.O.I.
It seems like promising science. I'm in favor of spending our government money on any research that might make our lives better, but that might not offer an investor a clear path to profit and would therefore never be funded by the private sector.
You mean spending our money. Those of us who pay the taxes.
I know Tomm, we have it soooo bad here. So unreasonable.
I pay taxes, that's why I called it "our" government money. It's the kind of thing I pay taxes for.
Zod, I didn't mean to imply you're not paying taxes. It was just meant to say it is our tax money they are spending on something I don't want.
No, I know TomM, I was just saying that of all the things we might spend tax money on, research, and especially medical research, is something I DO want my tax money spent on. Since we disagree, what if we spend some, but not all of it on this?
Compromise, how can I say no to that.... But spending more money is hard for me.
I do think research is very important. I work for a company that spends hundreds of millions on research annually. This is the way I think it should work. The federal...
...government can make attractive rules and regulations, such as an effective patent administration. However, this shouldn't cost the tax payers anything, fees can fund it. There's so much which I find more important than stem cell research.
I find the government deficits and debt alarming and I want our focus to be on fixing the economy.
That makes sense TomM, but it remains true than a lot of research has inestimable value to us as a society but has no real potential for profit, and therefore just won't attract private resources. Medicine for example shouldn't be profitable.
I agree not all research has profit potential, my example would be the environment, there I am ready to fund through taxes.
Medicine shouldn't be profitable? Would you want all medical research to be funded by taxes?
I think medicine in general ought to be run or funded by the government and non-profits. That's a separate issue. A lot of research in many diverse fields is made possible by government grants. I'd expand that in all fields - a lot.
Zod basically said what I think, but more concisely and elegantly than I could phrase it. Thanks Zod!
As you can probably guess I cannot support that, but I'm interested in why you think it should be tax payer funded?
TomM I think medicine in general should be treated as the furtherance in one of the three intrinsic rights, life, and should be available to all, equally. It isn't free, obviously, but I think pooling our resources is the best way to reach the goal.
Likewise, research in general adds to our knowledge as a group and should not be limited to those few things that appear profitable, but should include everything knowable. It benefits us all and should be paid for by us all.
NO NO NO - Adult stem cells or umbilical cord blood cells only. These are the only ones that show any promise anyway. But unborn humans should not be treated like animal carcasses.
Rjs well thought out argument aside, he is correct that unborn humans are not treated as carcasses to get the stem cells. No babies or possible babies or aborted babies are hurt getting them....
But I do think adult stem cells have shown more promise
@ thephlegm - Thanks for the more intelligent reply. I'll read up some more.
Absolutely not, my tax dollars should not be going toward this.
Thank you a voice of reason finally
Your whopping contribution? What should your tax dollars be going toward, in your opinion?
When the debt has been paid, any additional funds (not likely there's any) should be paid back to those who paid.
Giving the government more control sound like a great idea!!!
Hi - do you know there's an SOH 2.1 update available?
Does it block spam posts?
What "spam posts"?
It's a necessary upgrade. Scroll down the poll list to find a message from Tony about it a few days ago, & also read a recent blog post (June 28).
God, I've missed you ❤
Luv you EB!
I'd rather have the government spend it on cell research than some other useless thing.
Like a hundred million dollar vacation.
Better than private funding. I shudder to think where corporations would take it.
Where could they take it, what's the worst thing they could do with stem cells, take your tin foil hat off.
Private individuals and claimed have invented most of the cures we have, not government.
... Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure private corps WITH federal funding may have done this, but not entirely private entities.
What I DO know is that private corporations sure have found ways to "treat" symptoms... Usually with side-effects way worse than the original illness
Palin: links please
Links to what? I haven't made a claim. But I would like to see links to support the claim that private entities have come up with most cures
I just did a basic search and found that government research and contributed IMMENSELY more to our society than private and most private research breakthroughs ride off the work done by governmental research: Human Genome Project, the Internet,
I don't have any links. Why should I provide links? I didn't make the claim that private was better than public funding.
Uhh, but just off the top of my head,
-Human Genome Project and all the subsequent findings
- NASA and all the
the technology that was taken from NASA and defense technology and adapted for commercial use : microwaves, sonograms, I mean the list can go on to write a book.
But let's hear some links proving the contrary
You did "private corporations sure have found ways to "treat" symptoms...
Usually with side-effects way worse than the original illness"
The burden of proof rests with the original asserter.
What's the big deal about a little anal leakage?
Oh, that's why you need leaks to. I'm going off what I see in the commercials for anti-depressant medication. Anti-allergen medication, the medication that treats high blood pressure, blood clots, high cholesterol.... Even medication for erections!
Wow. I'm watching a commercial as we TYPE for a drug called "Xarelto"-- didn't catch what it treated but my God, "side effects may include uncontrollable bleeding which may rarely lead to death"?!
I suppose I should take another treatment for that?
So you're saying that because medicine can have side effects that government is god?? I don't understand that formula. You do realize side effects are rare right? and you do realize government medication can also have side effects right??
Uhh, please quote me where I said ANY if that
Palin: what you're saying is that corporate healthcare is bad because it has side effects. The facts are that government healthcare can also have side effects, it's not just a corporate thing. Side effects have no relevance to this conversation.
I NEVER said ANY of that. Go home. You're just making up BS
Jokes on you I am home.
"Wow. I'm watching a commercial as we TYPE for a drug called "Xarelto"-- didn't catch what it treated but my God, "side effects may include uncontrollable bleeding which may rarely lead to death"?!"
What did you mean then?
I'm talking about the horrible side-effects a lot of these pharmaceutical drugs have and they don't even cure anything. They only treat them. Idk why you decided to jump in. But that was a response to the original comment about how private companies
have found most of the cures, not government..
*not the original comment. The comment by liberty
Please read the question. The question is whether the federal government should fund it. Not whether it should be allowed.
This is silly, private organizations can fund this just as well as the Feds can, there is no reason to be wasting funds on this when they can do it as well or better than the Feds.
No they can't.
Private organizations could have put a man on the moon too, right? Did they? Have they yet?
SpaceX has made remarkable progress in space, also a Dutch company is planning a trip to Mars
Yeah, uh....how many years since then? Great call!
You would be surprised the funds private organizations can pull together.
Since when SpaceX? About zero.
Yeah I'm for it and women should drink their placenta after birth as well. Anything to help those in need. Just kidding about the placenta thing I just read something about January Jones drank hers because we are the only mammals that don't.
Wha... I don't even....
Yeah......I know I guess sometimes just like to add something so stupid that it will cause someone to put a link to youtube up, sorry!
Ok, from this time forth....
As of now, there is no proper substitution for embryonic stem cells, for most applications. We are working to change that. Until then, it is the technology.
Embryonic stem cells can save lives. Period.
And adult stem cells HAVE saved lives.
We can rebuild you, we have the technology.
Arkansas, yes they have. The company I work for is a major reason for that.
What I say stands.
Well aren't you special. I agree with your premise about stem cells, however the Feds have no business spending our money on it. If you think they can do it better than the private sector, you are delusional.
Ok chance. Ok. They have no business running our country, which is what they are supposed to do. You've nailed it.
Yes. RJ is delusional.
Yes. So very, very delusional.
At this point if the government wants to spend any money they need to ask China's permission first.
Yeah, good one.
Uh, what's the Yuan pegged to again? Oh yeah, the dollar. That's right.
Apples net worth is more than what we owe china.
Wait, what we owe china? We don't owe china anything. They invest in us. They choose to buy our bonds, just like the rest of the world. Why? They can make money off of the world's #1 economy.
Rj, try to pay attention you twit. China buys our debt, they can, at anytime call those bonds, of they do that. We are screwed.
Oh, wow! You are totally in la-la land, aren't you?!
The yuan is not "pegged" to any, RJ. It is fiat currency, as is the dollar.
I know you can insist from this day forward it is whatever you decree..... You still have no effect on reality.
Oh really? It's not pegged to the dollar, huh? So, the currency of a communist country is held in high regard, huh. How is that possible?
I can't wait to hear this nugget of insight.
RJ, why don't you link us to a site which explains the current agreement between the US and China pegging the Yuan at a set ratio to the US dollar? Do you not see how foolish you look?
I don't think there's a single currency that wouldn't change if the dollar went down, honestly. But RJ does have merit with the private entity thing. The only way we could get companies to do adequate research is if we allowed them patents.
Roland's, Private entities are already doing research and will patent any results they get. That is why there is no need for any Federal tax dollars to be granted for research.
WTF could china possibly do if they called in on our debt?
Not a fucking thing. We can tell them to fuck off and nothing would happen.
Evo- then we're going to get a ridiculous amount of complaints for patenting medical technology and such, and having the government control it will practically guarantee adequate funds.
rlands, not sure what you are saying. Are you indicating complaints will result from private companies having all the patents related to stem cell treatments?
rlands, the question was whether Federal funding should be granted to embryonic stem cell research. I have no issues with funding for other forms of stem cell research.
Ok I don't think I was understanding you. Gotcha. Makes sense.
Yes, this will be a heated discussion, but refrain from "I'll get the pop corn" jokes tonight please!!!
So, no popcorn then?
I have type 1 diabetes. Stem cell research is my best chance for a cure. So yes, I do support it.
Odd... Both U.S. News and Science Daily reported a possible cure for Type 1 through the use of adult stem cells (from bone marrow) with an existing drug. Many advancements from adult stem cells over the last few years.
It seems like an obvious decision. We can use stem cells to regrow tissues and save lives of people who are already alive. If you think we should save what isn't really alive yet and let someone else die then you need to re evaluate your priorities.
The question really was whether the federal government should fund it. That makes a difference to some of us.
A 6-week embryo shows brain activity & a heart beat. So I'm not sure how you could say it really isn't alive. At any rate, it may seem like an obvious decision to you & i'll respect your opinion, but I'm pretty sure I don't need to reevaluate my priorities.
@hvp well yes, but should we focus on letting that live rather than somebody who has friends, family, etc?
hvp - Embryonic stems cells are not made from 6-week embryos. They CANNOT be. They are made from a very early embryo 4-5 days after fertilization containing 50-150 cells. There is no brain, no heart, no organized tissues AT ALL. They are UNDIFFERENTIATED cells.
^^ which is why they're stem cells lol it always gets me how uneducated people get fooled into thinking it's harvesting a life embryo for its cells. That's not it at all. If it were a living embryo, the cells would be useless. These are blank cells... At this point they could be turned into anything
Hey, palindrome, do you know there's a 2.1 update available? It doesn't look as if you've updated yet. (Nobody's replied to my other messages, but I'll make a special effort to get to you.
I'm not sure why there's that misconception. Maybe it's what people are being told in some of the less-than-forthright places. I know SOME of these concepts are difficult (like the 3-parent child), but this one - not quite so much.
What's the benefit of the new update?
There are some nice new features, like an in-app notification center that holds 50 notifications & works better than the Apple notifications. A set of poll filters so you can see ALL, just NEW (unanswered) or MINE (your own) polls. But more importantly, the update points to the new servers...
and 2.0 DOESN'T, so you're seeing very little of the action. There are actually 311 comments here; you're probably seeing about 26. People on 2.1 can see your comments, but you can't see theirs. The update also brings back Android users (who were pointed at the new servers first)...
If I were religious, I'd pray we get at least ONE day on SoH where nobody mentions either abortion or gay rights.
It's been debated to death.
and there's a web version (which actually you could get to with a browser at w.showofhands.mobi/polls/). More importantly, Tony says the update is MANDATORY. See his message down the poll list a ways, & also read the current blog entry.
Oh those are all pretty neat. No wonder I only see a few comments.... It's quiet here.. I kinda like it
Well, you know, that ain't gonna happen. Either one. One could try to ignore those polls... I ignore the abortion ones pretty much, but I do get into the homosexuality ones, until I can't take it any more.
Yeah, I know. I've been looking at the SOH polls with 2.0 on the iPad, where it's eerily quiet, and with 2.1 on the iPhone, where it's... normal. But really, I don't know how long 2.0 will be viable, plus NO ONE CAN TALK TO YOU! Except me, because I'm taking in 2.0. And a few others maybe.
Everyone in 2.1 can see these messages... you just can't see them. There have been a few first-few-days "issues" but they're getting fixed up asap. Tony posted a poll yesterday where he answered a lot of questions (you have to follow him to see it; it's the "Welcome 2.1 users" poll).
Susanr: I don't mean to be offensive but you're wrong. These are in fact embryonic cells, however, we no longer use those cells for research, for we can find embryonic cells in our bone marrow... Please when people argue these issues, know the current facts.
You don't seem to know what we were saying. These are embryonic stem cells but they're only 4-5 days old, before they've taken on any living characteristics as the other guy put it
peck - What do you mean, we no longer use those cells for research - do you mean embryonic stem cells? Some research programs are still functioning, with the "approved" existing stem cell lines, as far as I am aware, plus laboratories without...
..any government funding are free to create their own lines, the last I knew anyway.
Are you saying there are *embryonic* stem cells in bone marrow? Or just stem cells?
There are so many other stem-cells to use besides embryonic...
No, because that money is first taken involuntarily from individuals.
By "involuntarily" do you mean when our democratically elected representatives vote to raise are taxes in a long thought out process that includes multiple branches of government that face checks and balances if they do something unconstitutional?
RJ is back! He's kicking ass and taking names!
I love all these selfish people who are willing to subject my generation to debt caused destitution in order to fund their little projects.
Do you really think stem cell research is a little project?
It's not that it isn't important but we don't have money, private organizations can do it just fine. How about you guys have some responsibility and pay off your debt so that I don't have to do it for you
Our debt isn't even a half percent of our total US assets.
So what do you want to cut scope?? Nothing, you're going to ignore the problem as it exponentially increases.
As of right now, it is not a problem.
Not now, but you're not going to address it your going to leave it until your generation is long in the ground. You will leave it for my generation to pay off. If we stop it now it won't be as painful.
Glad to see 'Yes' in the majority.
I am in favor of all research that has the ability to improve life.
I guess scientists should start abducting homeless people for experimentation.
Yeah, let's just get crazy with that slippery slope fallacy! Good call!
After all, scientists do what they do to hurt people. That's their style.
Or you could actually learn what stem cell research is.
So bikerjim, you are for Joseph mengale's nazi "scientific" experiments?
And RJ, are you saying every scientist is just a perfectly good human? No bad apples in the bunch? Cause that is actually what you are saying...
Not until we have a balanced budget.
We will never, ever have a balanced budget...that's for a reason.
Then we will never, ever have money for stem cell research, I guess private organizations will have to do it.
Do you understand how reality works? We don't have money? Are you serious? When has this country ever NOT spent for, well, anything?
I swear, some of you live in a weird alternate universe, devoid of things called facts.
Ya we're actually doing pretty good. Balanced budget is not possible and we do have money to fund this. Problem solved.
You have an obligation to pay your debts, you're irresponsible. How dare your government spend trillions with the expectation that my generation will have to pay it off, to do that you would have to I don't know "live in a weird alternate universe"!
You have no clue, whatsoever, how national economies work. We have been and will be #1...period. Get over your 3rd grade understanding of economics.
Fuck you, you think money grows on trees that you can spend money like its an unlimited resource, without consequence! You are going to destroy America for my generation, it is you who does not understand, inflation is coming!
Please. Boo hoo. You live in the best time in the best conditions in the best country of all time. And you go out of your way to find reasons to be miserable over bllsht non-issues. Pathetic.
Lol yeah right.
Well RJ: if it's so easy why the hell do we have a debt! Why don't you get a balanced budget so that it stops its rapid increase? Because your generation is selfish and lazy and refuses to sacrifice even a little.
My generation, wait, what?!?!
What do you mean?
@skinner, remember, to the true believers (RJ and others), their Prophet owns all the assets in America. So, $16 trillion is nothing as God Obama can sign an executive order to take what is needed.
Evocon: what on earth are you talking about?
Wow. The retard is strong with this one.
RJ: your being terribly unclear and insults neither help your argument nor articulate your point.
RJ is a true believe in Progressive theories, a follower of a faith based system of political judgements. Progressives believe all assets in America are, really, public. They can be used by the government at anytime for any reason.
Evo: yeah I see what you mean. Scope is saying how we have 200 trillion in assets, well how much of that is owned by the government, not a lot. Stupid theory.
Therefore, RJ's people can create as much debt as they want. First, they believe the government multiplier will erase any current debt (note the European success with this). If that fails, they will simply liquidate assets to pay the debt.
I finally understand them now. The reason they don't care about the debt is because they don't believe in private property therefore money does grow on trees! It would never actually work though.
Ok, seriously. The money is all fake anyways. It's not based on anything an printed whenever we want.
Who the fuck cares if we owe money to anyone? What happens when we say "not gonna pay you"? Nothing. Nothing would happen.
No live once we say that no one will ever lend us money again and confidence and investments in the American economy will plummet, essentially we would be lucky if we just had another recession.
For every dollar were in debt, we are owed 89 cents
^ ❤ this person
We aren't going to see that money anytime soon. the difference is our debt is increasing and our debtors are not.
RJ, wanna explain how this is "the best condition the best country has ever been in" I personally know several people who are barely scraping by in this terrible economy that would beg to differ.
Are times bad? Sure, but I don't feel it's fair to say things are terrible.
@erscopew, Krugman is a true believer in that theory. So have been the European countries having to salvage their countries' economies every 15 to 20 years. You would think a Nobel Laureate for Intn'l Econ would know better. Faith is Faith.
Please enlighten me with your ideas of fixing our current economic state. I'd like to hear something constructive instead of you trying to demoralize comments.
Thank you for the offer of 250 characters to resolve all economic ills, not enough space. My comments addressed Krugman's obsession with "printing" currency through a central bank. He scoffs at inflation because it does not occur within "hours".
So you're mad about inflation?
I am not mad (either emotionally or psychologically) about anything.
I didn't mean that to be derogatory, but curious if inflation was your main concern?
The issue would be more than inflation. The current actions by this administration and Congress will cause more negative effects than inflation. I am presuming our current leaders will follow France's path over the last 40 years.
I can see where you are coming from. I think my main reason for being optimistic includes a lot of expectations for the next couple years. I think we have done a decent job in slowing down the recession through govt spending but I also know that ...
Our next step is to slow this down and put it in the hands of the free market in the hopes it has gained enough momentum to continue growing. I don't disagree with you that we could end up like France, I'm just looking at it different.
I hope I am wrong. I had a dissertation built around the "hyper" inflationary effect of crude oil going above $30 a barrel (tells you how old I am). Hindsight had my formula with several weak assumptions. I hope I am wrong again.
I really hope you are too.
Thank you for the reasonable discourse. Much appreciated.
No we have no money and even if we had, I don't want it either.
We have more money than anybody. What planet are you on?
Yes more money than anybody at $-7,000,000,000,000
Yeah, because national economies are just like household finances.
7 trillion in debt compared to 200 trillion in assets as a country. 7 trillion is only a scary number because its too large to imagine. Put it next to 200 and yes, we're doing pretty good.
Skinner: You have a typo missing a 1 in front of that
Erscopew: you read his typo
Current debts 17,000,000,000,000
Scope: that money has to come from somewhere and is anyone willing to cut or pay more, no! The consequences of the debt will only grow as it is ignored.
What's the inherent value of the United States of America.
18trillion isn't sht. Our economy, our country, and how WE RUN the world's financial system (yeah, read that again spanky) is not anywhere close to being a detriment.
@Tom sorry, I was going off his number. Even with that, our economy isn't as horrible as people say.
The debt is rising dramatically estimated to be 90% of our economic output by 2020
Stem cells have the capability to save millions of lives.
Are you in favor of Federal funding.....no.
Ya because roads are stupid.
Most roads are funded by the states.
Not at all. It is unethical, and embryonic stem cells are rejected by the bodies of recipients. Doctors are better off using induced pluripotent stem cells harvested from the patient's own body or from the body of a family member.
How is it unethical? They are cells.
The ability to generate tissues from "pluripotent" somatic cells is extremely limited. It's not even close.
We are even further away from being able to utilize embryonic stem cells.
It is unethical to harvest cells from someone, thus killing that individual, without his or her consent.
Wow. "No" vote gets a moron award winner.
Yeah, circumvent a technology based on antiquated religious dogma...great call.
That's not necessarily why we voted no, I know it's not why I did.
How are we not funding it already? We give billions to worthless crap every year.
To clarify, I mean lets take that money and use it for good by funding this.
If you can give oil companies subsidies, allow apple, GE, etc. to not pay taxes, and give politicians 175,000$ a year with benefits, then yeah, we can fund some science.
Or we could compromise and not fund any of them until we pay off our debt
Yes. Yes. And another yes.
There are plenty of other methods to obtain stem cells....
But none of them are as good or effective.
Really. Please. Let me know. I work in the field. Please, enlighten me.
Rj who is your comment for?