Inspired by cowboy: It's been said that doctors performing sex change operations are only fighting the symptoms of something instead of working to find the cure. Lets say there is no cure. Would you be okay with the operations then?
I am practical. I took a premise that many people use as an excuse not to allow people to do what they want and expanded on it to see if their answers would change.
Some people spend ten years of their lives in the study of medicine and/or psychology. Therefore, they understand things. Other people are members of "Y'all Qaeda" and are ignorant enough to think they understand :)
I'm ok with it if someone wants to do that to themselves. However, they should pay for it themselves. I also do not think it's the right course of action.
Absolutely. And honestly, symptoms are all you can treat in that scenario. But unlike almost anything else, treating the symptoms can BE the cure.
Add to it, it's not harming me or anyone else in any way, so what good would preventing it do?
It is, by definition. But it is sometimes medically necessary, no? And that justifies it, no? Does the same not apply here? Is a mental ailment different from a physical ailment in this case?
Yes. Better to treat the delusion than pretend it's not one, as most psychiatrists have done for several decades. Cure the delusion and the desire for mutilation disappears.
Right now you're answering for a large group of people you have never known about something you've never experienced. Do you not see the problem here? Especially since there are many people out there who prove your statement wrong!
You want them to just avoid the real problems. And just because something hasn't happened to me doesn't mean I can't see the effects it can have on society.
I'm fine with not discussing, as long as you aren't going to stand in the way of other people doing to their own bodies something that has absolutely zero effect on you.
I can't ever say it is ok for them to do. It may not directly effect me, but it can effect society. It is not good to just stand back and let others do wrong either.
So just to be clear, you're positing the propriety of taking action to interfere with someone's rights over their own body while simultaneously refusing to engage in a conversation about how this is justified?
You said there wasn't much point in continuing the conversation because we won't ever agree, yet you continue to push the view that people should be prohibited from doing something purely because of these beliefs you aren't willing to discuss due to
You think it's right I think it's wrong and I don't believe in the live and let live mentality. People need others even if they think they do not or say they don't want help and guidance
2 scenarios: a) They were born one way and something happened that made them feel the need to change it. B) God made them that way and it's apart of their life's challenge to deal with it as part of their personality,
I'm confused. What would the "cure" be? What do they think the problem is? Scientific evidence simply does not support the proposition that being born with certain genitalia aligns terribly well with assorted markers of identity that are culturally
but not biologically linked to sex. So are they suggesting that the "problem" is merely that our culture links gender identity to arbitrary personal characteristics? I would certainly agree that this is *a* problem, but my understanding of gender
dysphoria is that it is far more complicated than - and has actual neurologically unique components distinct from - simply being a very "masculine" female or a very "feminine" male.
The situation is confusing to me as well, I was just trying to build off their premise to see if I could get anywhere. Turns out I can't, I know, shocking!
This is so obnoxious. They use one excuse and then when that doesn't work they just move onto the next. Might as well just say "I don't like them, they're icky" and be done with it.
I'm totally okay with anyone doing whatever the hell they want to do as long as they are not non-consensually harming others. I don't understand why people get so hung up on what other people are doing.
Ugh Yukon, you had to go there? :) I'm VERY against a single payer system because of all the things you outlined below & more. That's when we really start to become a socialist country & our freedoms really get taken away. Liberals don't even
understand what they're getting us into or what's in store for us if it goes that way.
Regardless, even though I have multiple transgender friends & I support their choices as individuals, I'll be damned if I want my tax dollars going to any type
of surgery in this realm. It's not my job to pay for other people's choices. That's why this country was founded on the principles of individual freedom & individual responsibility.
Of course not. It's inhuman to butcher the mentally disturbed and those "doctors" that do, should have their licenses pulled for violating the Hippocratic oath.
Yukon, a proper severe technique? ... LOL cowboy and I have a long history so anything goes. If you want a proper debate technique, join a debate club, this is the fucking internet.
Mentality disturbed is a fact, jackass? No, that's your opinion. Just because you say something doesn't make it a fact, but you seem to think so, and that's what makes you retarded.
Conservatives on SOH are the most sensitive conservatives in America. If you don't like what I say, ignore me. I prefer to be ignored by pansies anyway
(though that doesn't invalidate my comment, it just makes it unrelated)
Let's try this again. BDD is not the same as transgender. There are plenty of people with one and not the other.
Maybe you're the one who needs help, denying what's very easy to see and very real... Certainly delusions, possibly narcissism. Either way, help is available.
If it didn't exist, there wouldn't be so much on it and so many with it.
Because of people like you, the mentally ill are able to pollute our society with their sickness. You're the one helping kill society by polluting children's minds.
So there's mental disorders catalogued in the DSM which is the official manual for mental disorders. People get diagnosed by trained doctors with having one or more of these disorders. For cowboy to say that's recognized mental disorder is
is a mental disorder doesn't mean that there's something wrong with cowboy. It means there's something wrong with the person that's been diagnosed with the disorder by a trained doctor.
Acknowledging that the disorder exists is ok to do.
Yukon in case you hadn't noticed, he's claiming education, not treatment, is how to cure illness. That there are two genders, man and woman. And that intersex doesn't exist.
Cowboy, here's an easy intro to intersex for you.
She doesn't understand why you keep saying that when there is medical consensus that diverse intersex bodies are normal forms of human biology.While she doesn't expect you to understand that, I still give her credit for trying to educate your dumbass
It doesn't take much talent or intellect to be an ignorant truck driver.
It's a dead-end job that doesn't require critical thinking skills. This is exemplified in a complete lack of understanding of everything except the most basic concepts.
1) Woman isn't a gender, it's female.
2) Not true, most obviously you're missing intersex.
3) Should we take that approach for the flu, measles, and depression too? "You don't need treatment, here's a textbook! That'll make it all better!"
I would love one, but from someone qualified to teach it and who understands that man and woman aren't genders, and that "education" isn't how you treat disease.
You agree with this guy, who picks and chooses bits of studies to try and stick with the same psychiatric views held 50+ years ago? tinyurl.com/nbav9mg
I really don't care much about it as long as I and my tax dollars don't have to pay for it. I can't comprehend why anybody would want to do this or why any doctor would recommend it, but I don't care.
Unfortunately, the eventual adoption of a single payer system will mean that every voter's opinion on this issue becomes relevant. Another draw-back to single payer.
I think it's inevitable that we will adopt a single-payer healthcare system in the US. I believe that's what Obamacare is designed to segue into. Once everybody's personal healthcare is paid for by the taxpayer then everybody's health becomes
Becomes a voter concern and subject to public policy. Every voter has a say in public policy and so every voter will have a say in policies that affect people's health, including whether NYC style bans on big sodas is a good idea.
Of course, whether or not to cover transgender surgery will also be subject to the collective will of the people and no longer just a matter of personal choice.
Yup. The battle against sodas, sugar, and everything else deemed "bad" for people that eventually has a healthcare cost associated with it will become a target for voters and bureaucrats looking to make precious few healthcare dollars go a
Long way. Personally, I will agitate with my elected representatives to oppose all coverage of surgeries such as these and my vote will be used as a weapon against politicians that cater to the special interest lobby that's representing the
Let them have the surgery, but if they want my tax dollars to pay for it then they'll have to accept the idea that my opinion and biases really do matter to them. Right now it's none of my business. That will change.
I don't see single-payer as inevitable at all. Even in the UK, which has possibly the largest single health organization in the world, has a private sector to cater for medical treatments not available on the NHS.
Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with needing a sex change operation. Sometimes chromosomes get scrambled. People that require a sex change start showing opposite gender preference around four or so. And identifying with the other gender.
I just don't agree with you on this, Cowboy. I believe that anyone who would take the steps to go through the operation and the or pre and post-op treatment are at a point in their lives that it is necessary to their well being. They also need to
And that is where we differ. Science does not say they are mentally "deranged" nor does it say that they are harming society in any way. Most are good hearted people who are contributing members of society like you and I. I think you sometimes fear
those that are different from you and that fears manifests itself into hatred and unacceptance. You and I may never really understand the mental anguish these people go through, but we can still love them as we would any other human who has not done
us any wrong. Cowboy, I would never ask you to say you are OK with the procedure if you aren't. I would just ask that you open your heart to accepting them as people, people who want to be loved like anyone else and live their lives happily.
It's called Body Dysmorphic Disorder. It's well known. I'm trying to help them, and our society. Our children should not be subjected to horribly disfigured people, by butchers.
I know what it is called. But "deranged" is no where in the diagnosis. Just let them be themselves and be happy. A child who talks or interacts with a transgendered person will not be harmed in anyway.
Having a mental illness doesn't immediately make you a threat to children, I have 3. If you can't expand on your point to a specific I will assume you don't have any and are just pulling things out of your ass.
Everyone gets depression. Without proper treatment children have been murdered because of it. Someone with BDD hates themselves so much that they think cutting off body parts will "fix" them. That's simply not true.
You still haven't expanded on how exactly it's bad for children.
Also, I'm not sure why it matters what 3 I have since you made an unspecified blanket statement that if you have a mental illness you're bad for children.
I believe a transgendered person with love in their heart and love to give would be a much better parent than someone who is filled with this much hate for anything that isn't just like them.
What hate? Those people hate themselves and aren't mentally stable. If some mentally unstable person thought they were a dog, and taught children that it's "normal", would that hurt or help a child?
Cowboy, you are being a jerk. It is obvious that her tattoo isn't a heroin needle. How would you like it if someone made that kind of false accusation against you and because of it you NEVER got custody of your daughter. Shame on you for doing that.
You are ridiculous. Even if it did look like a needle, which is doesn't (or are you really that stupid?) you don't have the right to accuse someone of heroin use with absolutely nothing to go on. Absolutely shameful, unChristian and ridiculous.
Case closed... you really are that stupid.
It's really too bad because I use to at least respect that you had strong opinions and stood up for them. But, I don't respect anything about you any longer with the way that you treat others.
I'm real hurt... I don't want anyone that wants to butcher the mentally ill reading my comments anyway. I prefer sane people that want to help the children of our future.
There's a lot. I dare you to type cowboy in the search engine. There is a lot related to football, but a lot more saying "inspired by cowboy" usually from those of us he has driven crazy.
@drooski- yeah, agree. I can't really think he's funny after he said I was responsible for being raped and a coward for not reporting the second one. This trolling really isn't funny. How about we earnestly discuss some of these issues instead?
I never said others didn't find it funny. Obviously I meant *I* didn't find it funny. if cowboy's sense of humor were the standard for comedy, we'd be fucked.
Transfolk are comparable to kleptomaniacs and rape victims are cowards for not reporting? Well, damn, when did you become the expert on 15th century pyschology?
Wow, you're awful. The police mistreated me the first time. I don't think you get what rape does to a person. I wasn't enduring that pain again. And I'm glad I didn't inform you more about my friends case you offered to "help" with.
why do you keep saying "the people have spoken"? The demographics for your polls are almost exclusively white, Christian, Republican, males- that's hardly "the people".
Interesting you don't think it's an abusive cops fault. I also think it's scary that you lack so much understanding of reactions to rape while dealing with it directly as a cop. This my friends, is why people like me keep our mouths shut.
Fuck you, I'm not exposing a woman who already tried to kill herself twice to you. You're scum and the reason people hate police. I really don't know how you live with yourself.
Ignored again. I'm still dealing with PTSD and can't handle this shit. I hope you feel good about yourself and all the tape victims you've probably hurt. My friend doesn't deserve to be stabbed again, I'm not exposing her to a toxic cop like you.
lol are you implying I take only liberal arts classes er sumthin? I'm a Biochem major. Regardless, I don't need liberal arts classes not to be an uneducated dumbass. The irony is Criminal Justice is technically liberal arts...
you said she has no one to blame but herself. I'm saying the guy who raped her is someone who just may be to blame. call me old-fashioned, but I don't think he's excused.
Nem, in a good system, he gets locked up and we start to move forward. if the cop was abusive, or even just unhelpful, then we cannot, right? but we know that, even if not in the majority of cases, an unacceptably large number of rapists, especially
those with whom the victim is familiar, go free. we then push blame onto the victims, as we feel a need to blame someone in addition to the perpetrator, and can't seem to see the cracks in the system.
we accept that the perpetrator is to blame, but feel (and correctly, at that) that it's not the whole story. but with whom does that blame lie: the cop who wouldn't help, or the victim who doesn't want to keep re-living the experience?
@firefly- thank you. Seriously. It was probably the worst thing I've ever lived through, and I don't think I have the strength to do it again. People underestimate how extensively rape can damage you. It's really not worth reliving for a minimal
a stolen tv? sure. I mean, I've experienced this, and while it's annoying, it's not exactly personal. I've never been raped. I've never (knowingly) been close to someone who's been raped. it seems like the sort of thing that may be more personal than
Chance of the rapists being put in jail. Plus, one is out of the country for good anyway. The girl nema offered to help with is one who had extensive physical damage and was mistreated like me. She also doesn't think she could live this again. I
Think nema fails to understand the limits of a trauma victim, male female or otherwise. A person can only handle this so much. Then they break. You don't think you'll break until it's you; I know I didn't.
having my tv stolen, though. I'll speculate that just maybe, there are a lot of things running through your head that don't all make sense. from the outside, things always look different. I don't know, though, so I'd have to defer to someone who
has been through this. if that's you, then I whole-heartedly apologize for any assumptions I've made. but if it's not, I suspect that apology should come from you.
@stilletto- I like it :) it's unfortunate how callous some will be just to seem "edgy" or whatever the hell. Like, it's not edgy, trans people and rape victims have gotten shit for hundreds of years. Or he's a sadistic asshole who truly thinks these
I know that the premise of the question requires you to believe being transgendered is a disease, which many of us don't, but I'm sure you see my angle here, and I'm sorry for any of my friends I may have offended by asking this.
That's not what droo said or meant. I don't know why you're twisting his words just to cause an argument. There's arguments to be had all over this place without taking things out of context to do it.
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