Show of HandsShow of Hands

DailyAtheist October 29th, 2013 3:26am

New Pennsylvania bill requires schools to display "In God we trust" on a plaque outside of every school. This is an obvious violation of the separation of church and state, right?

14 Liked

Comments: Add Comment

lectrik Silly gas guzzling Prius
10/28/13 10:09 pm

That phrase should be removed from ALL government

FollowYourBliss Never Happy, Ever After
10/28/13 9:46 pm

What a complete waste of money, to satisfy a deranged notion that one groups belief in a god (out of 8000 that are believed on this planet) is somehow good for everybody. Leave your religion at home and focus on giving our kids a real and tangible...

Reply
FollowYourBliss Never Happy, Ever After
10/28/13 9:47 pm

education, and not some belief stoked in fantasy and superstition.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/28/13 9:38 pm

Hopefully this will run its course through the courts and get that BS off my money too.

Reply
EnderWiggin So disillusioned...
10/28/13 9:48 pm

I pledge allegiance to Tony
And the United Community of SoH'ers.
And to the stances for which they stand.
One Conglomeration.
Under Zod.
With flippancy and serenity for all.

Mattwall1
10/28/13 9:51 pm

Someone get this to tony, NOW

EnderWiggin So disillusioned...
10/28/13 9:56 pm

Oh... Like he hasn't seen it already.

Mattwall1
10/28/13 9:57 pm

I'm likely going to be on Soh on air on the 10th of November. Do you mind if I use this?

EnderWiggin So disillusioned...
10/28/13 9:58 pm

Lemme tidy it up a bit maybe. I'll resubmit where you can see it.

KudosToYou California
10/28/13 9:34 pm

These kind of people are positively nuts. They're the same kind of people that are responsible for the Creation Museum. Give an inch and they'll take a mile.

BeachSt Coastal Virginia
10/28/13 9:13 pm

Bibles and guns..

Reply
Posco BBQ Enthusiast
10/28/13 9:41 pm

I'm pretty sure that's a country song.

BeachSt Coastal Virginia
10/28/13 9:43 pm

Haha, I wouldn't doubt it.

lectrik Silly gas guzzling Prius
10/28/13 10:13 pm

I'm an atheist NRA supporter who owns multiple assault rifles. I live in Appellation Ohio. Guns and the problems are misunderstood.

2katz I live in Nebraska
10/28/13 9:05 pm

Our nation has so many bigger issues to have hissyfits about.

Reply
susanr Colorado
10/28/13 9:07 pm

That would seem to argue *against* going to the bother & expense of putting a plaque outside every school, then.

2katz I live in Nebraska
10/28/13 9:12 pm

No, I just mean to argue against widespread bundled undies over this.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:16 pm

Yeah, violations of the Bill of Rights is such a small thing.

Would your reaction be the same if the perceived violation were something you felt infringed on your 2nd Amendment rights?

2katz I live in Nebraska
10/28/13 9:21 pm

I don't argue this stuff. It's not worth my time. You think as you want and I will to.

susanr Colorado
10/28/13 9:23 pm

I pretty much believe in the wisdom of "pick your battles." *Removing* things like "In God We Trust" from our money, & "under God" from the Pledge seem like more trouble that they're worth at present (but I'll give my negative opinion of them

susanr Colorado
10/28/13 9:24 pm

whenever asked). But *adding* something that seems clearly wrong is just... really *wrong* in my opinion.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:25 pm

I don't think it violates the first amendment. I'm pretty sure the first amendment 1) bars the government from establishing a national religion and 2) protects people rights to practice their religion...

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:25 pm

I don't see people being forced to practice a religion or unable to practice the religion they choose...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:27 pm

So, your argument is that God isn't religious?

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:29 pm

God is religious, then?

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:31 pm

Of course God is religious. But how does having "In God we trust" as our national motto equate to "all citizens must practice Christianity"?

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:32 pm

Is saying you trust in god a religious statement?

KudosToYou California
10/28/13 9:35 pm

This is a pretty big issue.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:37 pm

Of course it is. But how does that make it violate the first amendment? It doesn't force citizens to follow a religion nor does it prevent them from following the religion they choose...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:39 pm

God is inherently religious. Stating ones trust in god in inherently religious.

The government is barred in the First Amendment from making a law "that respecting an establishment of religion."

It's not about force. It's about the government...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:40 pm

...being barred from making exactly these kinda of statements.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:43 pm

The first amendment was created to keep the Government from forcing citizens to follow a religion and to stop the government preventing citizens from following the religion they choose... The statement doesn't established a religion...

KudosToYou California
10/28/13 9:46 pm

It respects an establishment of religion.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:46 pm

I have no problem with the national motto being changed back to E pluribus unum. I just don't think the one we have is unconstitutional...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:49 pm

OK, the 1st Amendment was written to disallow the government from establishing a state religion. It requires that the state stay neutral in religious matters. Neutrality negates making overtly religious statements that put one religion...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:50 pm

...or subset of religions above any other religion or non-religion.

The Free Exercise Clause is what protects an individuals liberty to practice your religion freely and not be bound by the religious practice of others.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:51 pm

Together, along with the dictate that there be no religious tests for office, create a wall of separation between church and state.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:52 pm

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because this is obviously going nowhere...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:52 pm

The motto is not technically unconstitutional. But, this act, it passed, might call it into question. It was allowed based on tradition. If it's found that people are using this motto to promote one religion over another, then the motto will...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:53 pm

...be reevaluated and likely found to have prejudicial value and therefor violate the Establishment Clause. It will not pass must with the Lemon Test.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:54 pm

See, I'm offering my points. What evidence or support or analysis do you have? I would like to hear it.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:56 pm

I already gave them so I'm pretty sure agreeing to disagree is about as far as this can go for me

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:58 pm

No. You didn't give points. You simply asserted what you thought about the 1st Amendment. That's not offering analysis or evidence or anything of any value.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 10:03 pm

Sorry I'm all debated out. I've said what I thought and that's all I can say. Good debate though, thanks for the chat

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 10:08 pm

This debate has inspired me to post a poll about this tomorrow though. I have a lot of conservative followers so feel free to debate about this with them tomorrow if you want

veritas1 Panda
10/28/13 9:04 pm

The objectively correct answer is yes.

Reply
Wert A picture of my junk
10/28/13 8:53 pm

I propose that all post offices display on a plaque at the entrance which reads "In Zod we trust". Think it will pass?

Reply
Mattwall1
10/28/13 8:53 pm

I don't think zod wants that

Wert A picture of my junk
10/28/13 9:03 pm

Did anyone ask God if he wants it?

Mattwall1
10/28/13 9:03 pm

I'm not going to touch that

knetzere Illinois
10/28/13 8:51 pm

Where does it say separation of church and state?

Wert A picture of my junk
10/28/13 9:08 pm

The SCOTUS has ruled on at least 20 or so cases based on separation of church and state just since the 1940s. I think it's pretty well established.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:11 pm

A lower court ruled in 1970 that the national motto does not violate the first amendment. It has never been challenged by the supreme court...

Wert A picture of my junk
10/28/13 9:14 pm

Well, it's likely to get challenged, now.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:19 pm

There are two spots, but the actual wording is too long to easily cite in every reference, hence the concept was shortened and called "separation of church and state". It's a concept, not a direct quotes from the BoR. It is a direct quote...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:21 pm

...by Thomas Jefferson to (I think) Danbury Baptist Church.

The actual clauses, though, are known as the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause, both found in the First Amendment.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:22 pm

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

According to Jefferson and other founders and many Supreme Court rulings over the years, these two clauses create a "wall...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:23 pm

...of separation between church and state," hence the naming of this basic concept of the Constitution.

knetzere Illinois
10/28/13 9:30 pm

The idea of the first amendment is to prevent what happened in England from happening here. It was our if respect for people and their various religions that the gov not make one above all others and to not prohibit any.

knetzere Illinois
10/28/13 9:30 pm

Do I think these plaques are needed no. Do I think they violate the first amendment no.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:31 pm

What, exactly, is what "happened in England" that they were trying to prevent?

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 8:51 pm

How could they determine the schools use of it unconstitutional by separation of church and state without deeming the national motto unconstitutional? I could see them using the situation to fight the constitutionality of the motto but that's it

Reply
trepidhickory Ayy Lmao
10/28/13 8:51 pm

I think it is wrong

but separation of church and state isn't in the constitution is it?

Mattwall1
10/28/13 8:56 pm

Directly? No. In spirit? Yes. Does this cross that line? I'm not sure, although I don't think it should be done and favor e Pluribus Unum

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 8:59 pm

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" I don't think having a national motto In God we trust is the same as establishing a national religion but some would argue otherwise...

Mattwall1
10/28/13 9:01 pm

I don't think it does either, I just have always felt e Pluribus Unum represented the us better, not to mention it sounds better, at least IMO

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 9:05 pm

I wouldn't be apposed to that. I'm pretty sure it was the original national motto

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/28/13 9:25 pm

Sorry; not replies, but posts. I explained it up a little.

Skarface Banned
10/28/13 8:40 pm

Dammit Pennsylvania, why do you have to make me so ashamed of being from you?

Reply
susanr Colorado
10/28/13 8:29 pm

That seems destined for a trip to court will it will be declared unconstitutional. What the hell were they thinking?

Reply
aj1545 Cat Lady
10/28/13 8:29 pm

I was worried when I got to required, what's the reasoning there?

Reply
Posco BBQ Enthusiast
10/28/13 8:28 pm

How would it not be?

Reply
DailyAtheist Religious polls
10/28/13 8:32 pm

They are using the excuse that it is patriotic not religious because "In God we trust" is our national motto.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 8:34 pm

It's the national motto. If you don't like it you can fight to change or just do away with the national motto. But as it is the national motto I don't know how it could be unconstitutional for the schools to display it...

DailyAtheist Religious polls
10/28/13 8:39 pm

I always use this argument. What if instead of "God", it said "Satan". Would you want YOUR kids seeing "In Satan we trust" every time s/he walked into their school?

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 8:45 pm

No I wouldn't, but if it was the national motto it wouldn't be unconstitutional for the school to do that. You can say the motto is unconstitutional and fight it that way but the use of it by the school isn't while it is still the national motto...

Posco BBQ Enthusiast
10/28/13 8:45 pm

Slavery was deemed constitutional at one point, that doesn't mean it was ok. I don't think the government should be able push religion on people, especially children.

OKOkie Oklahoma
10/28/13 8:46 pm

I understand what you are saying but until the national motto is determined to be unconstitutional the use of it by the school is constitutional...

DailyAtheist Religious polls
10/28/13 8:48 pm

It is not constitutional. The state or Supreme Court will defiantly shut it down.

Posco BBQ Enthusiast
10/28/13 8:52 pm

It's obvious that this is a violation of the separation of church and state.

Posco BBQ Enthusiast
10/28/13 8:58 pm

I understand what your point is Okie but I don't agree. Just because the motto has not been found as unconstitutional, doesn't mean it's not. "Prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion".