Show of HandsShow of Hands

goalie31 February 13th, 2019 7:42pm

Over 200 Southern Baptist pastors have been charged with over 700 cases of child sex abuse of 20 years. Should Baptist pastors be allowed to get married or can we realize these cases aren't related with clerical celibacy?

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RussianThunder Russia and USA
02/13/19 7:54 pm

It is awful but it seems 200 over 20 years is far from the catholic numbers.
I’m not saying we should excuse the Baptist’s. Anyone who abuses children in any way, should face the greatest sentence the law can give.
I just kind of think it should not be a contest

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MrAmerica Peaceful protestor
02/13/19 8:54 pm

I don’t think that Goalie was trying to make this into a contest; I think that he was simply trying to show that celibacy wasn’t what caused the sexual abuse scandal within the Catholic Church and used a recent news story as an example.

Moreover, I think that before you discount Goalie’s example simply because the Catholic Church’s scandal is larger, you should also consider that the CC is also much larger than the SBC. And you should also further take into consideration that the recorded number of abuse allegations against priests goes backs to the early 50’s, not just within the last 20 years.



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RussianThunder Russia and USA
02/13/19 9:16 pm

You make good points. However, just going by Illinois, former Attorney Lisa Madigan, nearly 700 priests have been involved in this since 1991 instead of the 150 or so the Catholic Church has reported.

I am neither catholic nor southern baptist and so I have no pony in this race. I will say that accusations need to be found to be truthful and some of these may not be true on either side. It does seem to be a war on Xianity and Judaism now though.

It seems to me that psychologically, a pedophile will try to work around children. So, the fact we find them in clergy, education etc., in higher numbers than many other professions, I don’t find surprising.

You may be right, it may simply be the numbers of Catholics around the world.

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MrAmerica Peaceful protestor
02/14/19 4:02 am

I looked it up and I was unable to find a report saying that the abuse allegations against 700 (500 credibly accused) priests only went back 20 years; however I was able to find a article saying that the report didn’t specify any dates, only that the allegations go back decades;
Moreover, the recent Pennsylvania investigation found 300 credibly accused priests, and this included abuse cases from the 40’s.

MrAmerica Peaceful protestor
02/14/19 4:10 am

“only went back 20 years;” should say “only went back to 1991”. I accidentally hit send on my comment before i could finish editing it. Sorry.

RussianThunder Russia and USA
02/14/19 5:15 am

I only found 1991

“Recognizing the need to help heal this harm, since 1991 we have maintained one of the first and largest victim-assistance programs in the nation. The assistance ministry and the help it offers is independent of the investigative process. We provide this assistance to anyone making an allegation regardless of when the abuse is alleged to have occurred, whether the accused is living or whether the allegation is eventually substantiated. To date, we have provided assistance to more than 400 victim-survivors and their families. We ask that anyone who has been abused by a member of clergy or employee of the archdiocese to come forward to receive the help and healing they deserve”

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RussianThunder Russia and USA
02/14/19 5:17 am

The Archdiocese of Chicago has been at the forefront of dealing with the issue of clergy sexual abuse for nearly three decades. In 1991, Cardinal Bernardin called for a dramatic change in our culture, and in 1992 the Archdiocese of Chicago established a hotline for reporting abuse and adopted policies and procedures for the safeguarding of children, which ultimately served as the model for the Charter adopted by the U.S. Catholic bishops a decade later.

Starting in 2002, we have reported all allegations of child sexual abuse to civil authorities, and at that time we reported all historical allegations. We report these allegations regardless of whether the accused is alive or dead, a diocesan priest, an extern priest from another diocese or religious order priest. We consider an allegation to have been made even if the report is made anonymously, and we report it to civil authorities.


Comments from the archdiocese of Chicago (I think)

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RussianThunder Russia and USA
02/14/19 5:18 am

I did read the PA cases went back as far as the 1920’s, which seems rather silly as the priests would all be dead now and the children, very elderly.

MrAmerica Peaceful protestor
02/14/19 6:14 am

Thanks for the quote from the archdiocese, but I don’t think that it is referencing the investigation by Illinois. Instead, 1991 is when the Dioceses’ claims to have started taking everything, in their opinion, “seriously.”


Here’s an article I found from Fox News: www.foxnews.com/us/illinois-ag-finds-500-more-catholic-clergy-accused-of-abuse

Also, I apologize if it seems like I’m splitting hairs in my comments.


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political Georgia
02/13/19 7:16 pm

Respectfully, the Bible teaches that instead of an unmarried couple lusting after one another, the couple should marry. The Bible does not provide an exception to Priests on this issue. As a result, Catholic doctrine can contribute to the Church’s sexual immorality problem though it isn’t the only reason. As you correctly point out, men are sinful. Therefore, these things will occur. Nevertheless, I often wonder if preachers who molest children are actually called by God in the first place.

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 7:37 pm

1. Clerical celibacy isn't a doctrine it's a discipline.

2. Man is called to marry one woman and the two will become one flesh. Jesus also bans divorce, he says a man is better off not getting amrried if he can't accept taht. If a man doesn't marry he is called to remain celibate. (Mt 19:10-12)

3. All men sin, even men of God (priests, preachers, etc). They are men just as capable of sin as you or I or anyone.

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 7:40 pm

You act like clerical celibacy has let to higher numbers of abuse. The % of priests involved in scandal is far lower than the general population of the US. These Baptist preachers were almost all married.

Plenty of saints lived lives free from sexual sins in celibacy. Most of the apostles, early church fathers, many great theologians, and many monastics

political Georgia
02/13/19 7:47 pm

I’m sure almost all people have fallen into some sort of sexual sin, but that wasn’t my point. I’m simply saying that the Catholic discipline (as you corrected me) can prevent a just Biblical institution. I’m rejecting to the notion that preachers shouldn’t get married. As a result of not getting married, a priest can easily fall into sexual sin. This isn’t to say that all people/Priests should get married, but some certainly should.

Krystina Let Freedom Reign
02/13/19 2:51 pm

The poll answer choices are bad, IMO. Obviously, the situation is bad. Child sex abuse is bad. Whether it’s related to celibacy or not would require significant study and statistical analysis to determine.

That said, to my knowledge Baptist Pastors can marry. I don’t believe they take a vow of celibacy like Catholic Priests do. I believe that makes this question moot, at least for the most part.

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:23 pm

Yes, that's the point. Baptist ministers can marry and this happened. It was sarcasm to point out the issue with priests isn't celibacy and this proves it isn't a Catholic exclusive issue

Krystina Let Freedom Reign
02/13/19 5:07 pm

Ah, sorry. I didn’t get what you were going for on my initial read, obviously.

If your argument is that celibacy is irrelevant, I’d be interested in comparative numbers where we look at a number of married Baptist Ministers as compared to the same number of Catholic Priests & evaluate how many cases of child sex abuse there are. You’d obviously have to control for other factors as well. But, you might be able to make a good case that celibacy doesn’t have an impact...or you might find that it does. Without evaluating the two side by side with as much equivalency as possible, it’s hard to say.

But, I’ve never though of it in this way. Even when I made my first comment, I was thinking that that type of study would be very difficult to accomplish. In reality though, as you point out with this comparison, it wouldn’t be that difficult as the data is already available between Baptist’s & Catholics. It’d just be a matter of gathering & analysis. Interesting indeed.

zimmy Florida
02/13/19 2:44 pm

The hypocrisy of some of these religious nutters is unbelievable!

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Robert01 existentialist
02/13/19 2:11 pm

Correction doesn't equal causation.

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TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
02/13/19 1:47 pm

SBC pastors are almost EXPECTED to be married. There's no culture of celibacy in the SBC.

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:23 pm

It was sarcasm to point out the people that say priests do it because their vow of celibacy

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
02/13/19 5:16 pm

Ohh - gotcha. 😃

kspells TheOtherOtherside
02/13/19 1:44 pm

How many out of the 200 accused SBP were married?

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:24 pm

Idk, probably most. This was just to point out the hypocritical nature of blaming celibacy for some priests doing evil things

kspells TheOtherOtherside
02/13/19 6:43 pm

I agree. They could, like catholic priests, become clergy because they are perverted. Or even Gay, not that gay = perverted, just keeps them shielded from society norms. I think the1st red flag is being clergy, second is the vow of celibacy. That isn’t admirable. It’s suspect. God forbid they should marry.

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/14/19 11:51 am

So being willing to sacrifice your life to God and live in borderline poverty while serving a parish of hundreds/thousands of people is a red flag?

Sacrificing your human sexuality as a gift to God is a red flag? Where in the Bible does it say you must get married and have kids? If memory serves me right Jesus said the exact opposite

Matthew 19:10-12

10 His followers said to Him, “If that is the way of a man with his wife, it is better not to be married.” 11 But Jesus said to them, “Not all men are able to do this, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are some men who from birth will never be able to have children. There are some men who have been made so by men. There are some men who have had themselves made that way because of the holy nation of heaven. The one who is able to do this, let him do it.”

kspells TheOtherOtherside
02/14/19 3:03 pm

It’s not “given” to all, it is given to a few. Those few are not the norm. And as for perverted men, who it has not been given to can and do certainly hide behind the protected realm of priesthood. It’s a red flag of suspicion.

Whatsamattaferu 11726
02/13/19 12:57 pm

Let’s see if they go after the baptist as they did the Catholic Church .

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:01 pm

They won't. Being anti-Catholic in this country is easy. Attacking evangelicals not so much

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:07 pm

I beg your pardon. Someone already went after me bout it last night. Intimated that ALL Southern Baptist leaders are child molesters.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:07 pm

And I’m attacked on SoH almost every day because of my Christianity, goalie. I’m an evangelical Southern Baptist, and my hubby a pastor, if y’all didn’t realize that.

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:10 pm

I'm not talking personal attacks. I'm talking organized media attacks.

There are over 350,000 Catholic priests yet a couple hundred have made it so anyone who isn't Catholic IMMEDIATELY distrusts them because of a collar. You and your husband will never have that level of societal distrust. That's because this country hates Catholicism and is very pro-Evangelical

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:12 pm

Well, this person lumped all of us together....said that Catholic AND Southern Baptist leaders are all molesting kids, basically. If you’d like to read it, I listed some good links there that tell the other side of the story....some stats, and what Southern Baptists are doing to end this, and I also defended Catholics and gave some info about stats and I think a link about that as well.

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:18 pm

The fact that Catholics immediately got lumped with the Baptists doesn't show you how anti-Catholic this story is at its core. This isn't a Baptist issue, it's not a Catholic issue, it's not a religion issue or any group. It's an issue of people abusing roles of power. It happens in Hollywood, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, teaching, Judaism, daycares, etc. I hate they make these stories out to be Baptist or Catholic or Penn State or Michigan

It happens everywhere and everyone is disgusted by it. Everyone needs to know how to look for signs of it occuring and call it out when they see it.

My point wasn't to say that Baptists won't be attacked for it... I'm sure you personally will be attacked. What I'm saying is it won't happen on the scale it did with the Catholic Church in the media because the US has an anti-Catholic bias.

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:20 pm

This poll wasn't made to attack Baptists... It was to provide a line of logic that priests arent bad and that celibacy isn't related to the sex abuse scandals.

I hope this is resolved by Baptists and the media blows over quickly. I pray your husband and family don't have to deal with the persecution priests get for crimes they didn't commit. I'm on your side.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:35 pm

I agree with EVERYTHING that you said in the first comment....and brought that out in my comments there.....with a quote that said it’s not any more prevalent in the Catholic church than it is in the general population!

I also listed links to pages that tell how churches of all denominations can go about protecting kids from this. Churches are soft targets because no one can even wrap their heads around this happening in a place we consider safe and a place to worship God, so pedophiles seek kids out specifically. The articles I linked tell how to look for pedophiles. I also mentioned that Southern Baptists have conferences (I just saw an announcement for one this week) about how to weed out pedophiles when hiring....what to look for, etc.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:35 pm

2) I see what you mean....but I can tell you that, as a Southern Baptist, I wasn’t aware of any anti-Catholic bias until I came to SoH and have seen it here. It’s not something that I ever heard in ANY Southern Baptist church.

Thanks for everything you said in the second comment. I REALLY appreciate that! If you don’t want to look for the other poll, I could copy what I said there here, if you’re interested. But I understand if you’re only interested in the point you’re making in this poll.

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kscott516 Masks fail
02/13/19 2:39 pm

The reason the Catholic Church gets the flack it does is because the pope is a satanist that has hid the Church’s involvement in the Nazi reign and human/drug trafficking globally. It’s also an extremely wealthy organization that is hypocritical in its message while also continuing to change its values with culture and society instead of remaining steadfast in its biblical principles.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 2:46 pm

Other than changing their values to match culture, which I don’t believe is right (and they’re not the only Christian denomination that HAS), I’ve never heard any of the rest of that about Catholicism, kscott. Those are some serious allegations, and I can see why Catholics feel they’re persecuted by evangelicals if that’s the type of comments they get from them.

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zimmy Florida
02/13/19 2:46 pm

Kscott 🙄

kscott516 Masks fail
02/13/19 3:14 pm

Sorry, I can no longer sugarcoat the truth. People have to wake up from the slumber they’ve been under. Maybe reread Revelations to discern who the Great White Whore is.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:17 pm

Kscott, The Book of Revelation (not RevelationS), is a VERY hard book to understand. I take anyone that says they completely understand what it’s about with a grain of sand, personally.

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:22 pm

The Catholic Church has never once changed doctrine to match the times. Catholic dogma never changes. You are an ignorant pathetic little heretic, kscott

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:25 pm

Goalie, haven’t they changed some doctrines pertaining to birth control, abortion, divorce, and gay marriage? And if not, are they all denouncing the senators that voted for abortion up to the date of birth? I’ve seen one article that says some of them are doing this. I’ve read articles that said that the Pope spoke in support of gay marriage. Was that a lie?

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:26 pm

I’ve been told that a lot of Hispanics who are Catholic are voting Democrat because the issue of abortion isn’t as important to them as their government dole. And this was from a Hispanic Catholic who was sad about this.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:28 pm

And when I ask about this, I’m not trying to attack the Catholic Church. I’m truly curious....and I realize that other Christian denominations have changed on these issues as well. Southern Baptists are one of the few that are sticking to our guns, and we get a lot of backlash because of that. Another issue that comes to mind is women in the ministry.

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:34 pm

The official and dogmatic law of the church bans all abortion(any circumstance), being Pro-Choice, gay marriage, in vitro fertilization(due to the massive amount of fertilized eggs, children, killed in the process), contraception, premarital sex, sex in marriage with conception, all birth control (except for medical purposes, ex. The pill helps some women with period issues), all oral sex, all sodomy/anal sex. Sex in the church is defined best in St John Paul II's Theology of the Body which explains sex is a gift from God that we should enjoy for physical and emotional benefit with our spouse but never without being open to the biological reason for sex, which is procreation.

Anyone who lives outside these rules is living in a state of sin in the Church

The Catholic Church has never and will never change its views on the morality of these issues.

Pope Francis is often mistranslated/misinterpreted and rarely fact-checked in the US. 99% of stories you hear about him are fake news.

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:37 pm

The same reason we only ordain men as deacons and priests. That is apostolic tradition and church dogma.

There are Catholic disciplines that can change. For example, celibate priests aren't dogma of the church it is a discipline that can be changed, which is why Byzantine Catholic and other Eastern Catholic priests can be married before ordination, but cannot be remarried after they are ordained even if their wife dies.

Also divorce is still banned in the church. Remarriage bars you from receiving the Eucharist (the true presence through Transubstantiation where our communion becomes the actual body, blood, soul and Divinity of Jesus)

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:39 pm

Don't confuse Catholics with Catholic dogma. Many Catholics hold that title in name only. I would love to explain Catholic theology, traditions, and apostolic succession to you in messages if you would like.

There is a famous quote in Catholicism

"Nobody hates the Catholic Church, but many hate what they believe the Catholic Church is"

*Cough* kscott *cough* hahaha

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:54 pm

Thanks, Goalie. Much of what you said is in line with what Southern Baptists believe as well, but we also have members that don’t follow Biblical principles. However, the SBC DOES take a stance on these issues. For example, here are some links about what we’re doing to try to prevent this in the future, and the resolution (stand) that the SBC took against this type of abuse. Has the Catholic Church done any of these things? If so, it might help if you would post some of those articles and stances for everyone to see.

Here is a page about what SBC churches do to prevent child sexual abuse:

www.sbc.net/churchresources/sexabuseprevention.asp

Here is the SBC resolution about this matter:

www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:55 pm

2) And here is an article about this matter that just came out for the AL Baptist Convention:

www.thealabamabaptist.org/investigation-into-sexual-abuse-at-sbc-churches-names-17-with-alabama-baptist-church-connections/

I just recently saw an announcement for an event in which church members in AL can learn how to weed out pedophiles.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:55 pm

3) As to the Catholic church, here is the research I’ve done on that over the years:

“Experts disagree on the rate of sexual abuse among the general American male population, but Allen says a conservative estimate is one in 10. Margaret Leland Smith, a researcher at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says her review of the numbers indicates it's closer to one in 5. But in either case, the rate of abuse by Catholic priests is not higher than these national estimates.

blogs.denverpost.com/hark/2010/05/25/scandal-creates-contempt-for-catholic-clergy/39/

www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

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zimmy Florida
02/13/19 4:16 pm

4jc- I have to say it’s a nice change that we are on the same page and disagree with Kscott, 👍

MrsCrayonWax
02/13/19 4:27 pm

Goalie, I agree with everything you’ve said. The catholic hatred is real.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 4:31 pm

Thanks, Zimmy. I KNOW what it’s like to be attacked for my Christianity, (I’m attacked almost every day here on SoH) and I don’t condone doing that to people of other denominations, other religions, or even atheists. Just last night, someone told me that ALL Southern Baptist leaders are pedophiles, and went on and on about this, KNOWING that I’m an SBC pastor’s wife.

The SBC has more than 15M members, and 47,544 churches, and so my point was that this was a LIE....with only a few HUNDRED incidences of this in the last TWENTY years, there is no way that you can say that all SBC leaders are pedophiles. This guy refused to back down or apologize for the personal attack on me, my hubby and all SBC leaders, and even said that I was abusive to him because I called him a liar!

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 4:34 pm

When I pointed out the low numbers, he said I was excusing them, and nothing is farther from the truth! If we had ever had even one incidence of this in one of our churches, we would have IMMEDIATELY contacted the cops.

We are so strict about this that hubby doesn’t even do counseling at the church if he’s alone. I go to the church and “practice the piano” if someone wants to come in for counseling and there isn’t a secretary in the building. We make it a rule that we don’t invite guests of the opposite sex into our home if we are home alone, and we don’t even like to travel a short distance in a vehicle alone with someone of the opposite sex.

This protects us from false allegations, as well being good policy to protect church members.

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mark4
02/13/19 4:57 pm

goalie, the problem with Catholicism is it’s top down bureaucracy. It’s bound by that nature to both commit horrors and try to hide them.
It will continue.

zimmy Florida
02/13/19 4:58 pm

That sounds smart!

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 5:03 pm

Zimmy, was your comment about something being smart in regards to our policies? Because I’ve had liberals here tell me it’s ridiculous! LOL

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zimmy Florida
02/13/19 5:27 pm

I don’t find that ridiculous at all, especially in this day in age, unfortunately

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 6:00 pm

Thanks, Zimmy! They also think that Pence is ridiculous for having that rule...about eating out with someone of the opposite sex. But I’ve seen over the years, and have been taught, that affairs always start with emotional affairs....and that can easily happen without your meaning to be attracted to someone else. We’ve also seen other ministers fall in this area, and want to do our best to prevent that from happening to us. After all, we’re only human and all of us sin.

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goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/14/19 11:55 am

Mark - 99% of the "new" cases are pre-2001 with the majority being over 50 years old. Yes it's evil that it happened but to say it will continue and is still going strong is laughable. The church has changed a ton of rules about adults being with children to avoid this.

You forget there are tons of Catholic schools, orphanages, churches, youth programs, etc... There are also roughly 1.5B Catholics in the world and 450k Catholic priests. So yeah, there will always be sinful people in those roles and yes people can do evil things but to say its common or that church defends it is a joke.

mark4
02/14/19 12:49 pm

A top down bureaucracy will do evil.
It’s simple. Power corrupts to the degree of the power. Hierarchies have incentive to cover up problems. That’s why the Catholic Church has had to be dragged into admissions of coverups. All large powerful organizations are prone to the same thing.

mark4
02/14/19 12:53 pm

The Catholic Church has a horrific history for that very reason.

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 12:43 pm

Huh, it's almost like human beings are capable of evil actions regardless of their sex life. Who'd a thunk

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MrsCrayonWax
02/13/19 4:28 pm

I made this point long ago and of course got slammed for it.

WorstGooEver Nuke the Hurricanes
02/13/19 5:05 pm

It’s all about access. That’s why you see more teachers in the news for (that type of)bad reasons. It’s why you see a higher percentage of band teachers than math teachers. All about the access.