Show of HandsShow of Hands

goalie31 February 13th, 2019 7:42pm

Over 200 Southern Baptist pastors have been charged with over 700 cases of child sex abuse of 20 years. Should Baptist pastors be allowed to get married or can we realize these cases aren't related with clerical celibacy?

13 Liked

Comments: Add Comment

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:07 pm

I beg your pardon. Someone already went after me bout it last night. Intimated that ALL Southern Baptist leaders are child molesters.

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 12:43 pm

Huh, it's almost like human beings are capable of evil actions regardless of their sex life. Who'd a thunk

Reply
TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
02/13/19 1:47 pm

SBC pastors are almost EXPECTED to be married. There's no culture of celibacy in the SBC.

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:01 pm

They won't. Being anti-Catholic in this country is easy. Attacking evangelicals not so much

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:07 pm

And I’m attacked on SoH almost every day because of my Christianity, goalie. I’m an evangelical Southern Baptist, and my hubby a pastor, if y’all didn’t realize that.

..

Reply
zimmy Florida
02/13/19 2:46 pm

Kscott 🙄

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:18 pm

The fact that Catholics immediately got lumped with the Baptists doesn't show you how anti-Catholic this story is at its core. This isn't a Baptist issue, it's not a Catholic issue, it's not a religion issue or any group. It's an issue of people abusing roles of power. It happens in Hollywood, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, teaching, Judaism, daycares, etc. I hate they make these stories out to be Baptist or Catholic or Penn State or Michigan

It happens everywhere and everyone is disgusted by it. Everyone needs to know how to look for signs of it occuring and call it out when they see it.

My point wasn't to say that Baptists won't be attacked for it... I'm sure you personally will be attacked. What I'm saying is it won't happen on the scale it did with the Catholic Church in the media because the US has an anti-Catholic bias.

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:23 pm

Yes, that's the point. Baptist ministers can marry and this happened. It was sarcasm to point out the issue with priests isn't celibacy and this proves it isn't a Catholic exclusive issue

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:23 pm

It was sarcasm to point out the people that say priests do it because their vow of celibacy

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:25 pm

Goalie, haven’t they changed some doctrines pertaining to birth control, abortion, divorce, and gay marriage? And if not, are they all denouncing the senators that voted for abortion up to the date of birth? I’ve seen one article that says some of them are doing this. I’ve read articles that said that the Pope spoke in support of gay marriage. Was that a lie?

..

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:39 pm

Don't confuse Catholics with Catholic dogma. Many Catholics hold that title in name only. I would love to explain Catholic theology, traditions, and apostolic succession to you in messages if you would like.

There is a famous quote in Catholicism

"Nobody hates the Catholic Church, but many hate what they believe the Catholic Church is"

*Cough* kscott *cough* hahaha

Reply
zimmy Florida
02/13/19 4:58 pm

That sounds smart!

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:55 pm

3) As to the Catholic church, here is the research I’ve done on that over the years:

“Experts disagree on the rate of sexual abuse among the general American male population, but Allen says a conservative estimate is one in 10. Margaret Leland Smith, a researcher at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says her review of the numbers indicates it's closer to one in 5. But in either case, the rate of abuse by Catholic priests is not higher than these national estimates.

blogs.denverpost.com/hark/2010/05/25/scandal-creates-contempt-for-catholic-clergy/39/

www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

__

Reply
zimmy Florida
02/13/19 4:16 pm

4jc- I have to say it’s a nice change that we are on the same page and disagree with Kscott, 👍

Reply
zimmy Florida
02/13/19 2:44 pm

The hypocrisy of some of these religious nutters is unbelievable!

Reply
MrsCrayonWax
02/13/19 4:28 pm

I made this point long ago and of course got slammed for it.

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:10 pm

I'm not talking personal attacks. I'm talking organized media attacks.

There are over 350,000 Catholic priests yet a couple hundred have made it so anyone who isn't Catholic IMMEDIATELY distrusts them because of a collar. You and your husband will never have that level of societal distrust. That's because this country hates Catholicism and is very pro-Evangelical

Reply
mark4
02/14/19 12:49 pm

A top down bureaucracy will do evil.
It’s simple. Power corrupts to the degree of the power. Hierarchies have incentive to cover up problems. That’s why the Catholic Church has had to be dragged into admissions of coverups. All large powerful organizations are prone to the same thing.

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:17 pm

Kscott, The Book of Revelation (not RevelationS), is a VERY hard book to understand. I take anyone that says they completely understand what it’s about with a grain of sand, personally.

..

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 1:20 pm

This poll wasn't made to attack Baptists... It was to provide a line of logic that priests arent bad and that celibacy isn't related to the sex abuse scandals.

I hope this is resolved by Baptists and the media blows over quickly. I pray your husband and family don't have to deal with the persecution priests get for crimes they didn't commit. I'm on your side.

Reply
mark4
02/14/19 12:53 pm

The Catholic Church has a horrific history for that very reason.

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:22 pm

The Catholic Church has never once changed doctrine to match the times. Catholic dogma never changes. You are an ignorant pathetic little heretic, kscott

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:26 pm

I’ve been told that a lot of Hispanics who are Catholic are voting Democrat because the issue of abortion isn’t as important to them as their government dole. And this was from a Hispanic Catholic who was sad about this.

..

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:28 pm

And when I ask about this, I’m not trying to attack the Catholic Church. I’m truly curious....and I realize that other Christian denominations have changed on these issues as well. Southern Baptists are one of the few that are sticking to our guns, and we get a lot of backlash because of that. Another issue that comes to mind is women in the ministry.

..

Reply
mark4
02/13/19 4:57 pm

goalie, the problem with Catholicism is it’s top down bureaucracy. It’s bound by that nature to both commit horrors and try to hide them.
It will continue.

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 5:03 pm

Zimmy, was your comment about something being smart in regards to our policies? Because I’ve had liberals here tell me it’s ridiculous! LOL

..

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:54 pm

Thanks, Goalie. Much of what you said is in line with what Southern Baptists believe as well, but we also have members that don’t follow Biblical principles. However, the SBC DOES take a stance on these issues. For example, here are some links about what we’re doing to try to prevent this in the future, and the resolution (stand) that the SBC took against this type of abuse. Has the Catholic Church done any of these things? If so, it might help if you would post some of those articles and stances for everyone to see.

Here is a page about what SBC churches do to prevent child sexual abuse:

www.sbc.net/churchresources/sexabuseprevention.asp

Here is the SBC resolution about this matter:

www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230

MORE

...

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 3:55 pm

2) And here is an article about this matter that just came out for the AL Baptist Convention:

www.thealabamabaptist.org/investigation-into-sexual-abuse-at-sbc-churches-names-17-with-alabama-baptist-church-connections/

I just recently saw an announcement for an event in which church members in AL can learn how to weed out pedophiles.

MORE

..

Reply
TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
02/13/19 5:16 pm

Ohh - gotcha. 😃

Reply
Robert01 existentialist
02/13/19 2:11 pm

Correction doesn't equal causation.

Reply
MrAmerica Peaceful protestor
02/13/19 8:54 pm

I don’t think that Goalie was trying to make this into a contest; I think that he was simply trying to show that celibacy wasn’t what caused the sexual abuse scandal within the Catholic Church and used a recent news story as an example.

Moreover, I think that before you discount Goalie’s example simply because the Catholic Church’s scandal is larger, you should also consider that the CC is also much larger than the SBC. And you should also further take into consideration that the recorded number of abuse allegations against priests goes backs to the early 50’s, not just within the last 20 years.



.

Reply
zimmy Florida
02/13/19 5:27 pm

I don’t find that ridiculous at all, especially in this day in age, unfortunately

Reply
Whatsamattaferu 11726
02/13/19 12:57 pm

Let’s see if they go after the baptist as they did the Catholic Church .

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 2:46 pm

Other than changing their values to match culture, which I don’t believe is right (and they’re not the only Christian denomination that HAS), I’ve never heard any of the rest of that about Catholicism, kscott. Those are some serious allegations, and I can see why Catholics feel they’re persecuted by evangelicals if that’s the type of comments they get from them.

..

Reply
Krystina Let Freedom Reign
02/13/19 2:51 pm

The poll answer choices are bad, IMO. Obviously, the situation is bad. Child sex abuse is bad. Whether it’s related to celibacy or not would require significant study and statistical analysis to determine.

That said, to my knowledge Baptist Pastors can marry. I don’t believe they take a vow of celibacy like Catholic Priests do. I believe that makes this question moot, at least for the most part.

Reply
RussianThunder Russia and USA
02/13/19 9:16 pm

You make good points. However, just going by Illinois, former Attorney Lisa Madigan, nearly 700 priests have been involved in this since 1991 instead of the 150 or so the Catholic Church has reported.

I am neither catholic nor southern baptist and so I have no pony in this race. I will say that accusations need to be found to be truthful and some of these may not be true on either side. It does seem to be a war on Xianity and Judaism now though.

It seems to me that psychologically, a pedophile will try to work around children. So, the fact we find them in clergy, education etc., in higher numbers than many other professions, I don’t find surprising.

You may be right, it may simply be the numbers of Catholics around the world.

.......

Reply
MrsCrayonWax
02/13/19 4:27 pm

Goalie, I agree with everything you’ve said. The catholic hatred is real.

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 6:00 pm

Thanks, Zimmy! They also think that Pence is ridiculous for having that rule...about eating out with someone of the opposite sex. But I’ve seen over the years, and have been taught, that affairs always start with emotional affairs....and that can easily happen without your meaning to be attracted to someone else. We’ve also seen other ministers fall in this area, and want to do our best to prevent that from happening to us. After all, we’re only human and all of us sin.

..

Reply
RussianThunder Russia and USA
02/13/19 7:54 pm

It is awful but it seems 200 over 20 years is far from the catholic numbers.
I’m not saying we should excuse the Baptist’s. Anyone who abuses children in any way, should face the greatest sentence the law can give.
I just kind of think it should not be a contest

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 4:31 pm

Thanks, Zimmy. I KNOW what it’s like to be attacked for my Christianity, (I’m attacked almost every day here on SoH) and I don’t condone doing that to people of other denominations, other religions, or even atheists. Just last night, someone told me that ALL Southern Baptist leaders are pedophiles, and went on and on about this, KNOWING that I’m an SBC pastor’s wife.

The SBC has more than 15M members, and 47,544 churches, and so my point was that this was a LIE....with only a few HUNDRED incidences of this in the last TWENTY years, there is no way that you can say that all SBC leaders are pedophiles. This guy refused to back down or apologize for the personal attack on me, my hubby and all SBC leaders, and even said that I was abusive to him because I called him a liar!

..

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:12 pm

Well, this person lumped all of us together....said that Catholic AND Southern Baptist leaders are all molesting kids, basically. If you’d like to read it, I listed some good links there that tell the other side of the story....some stats, and what Southern Baptists are doing to end this, and I also defended Catholics and gave some info about stats and I think a link about that as well.

..

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 4:34 pm

When I pointed out the low numbers, he said I was excusing them, and nothing is farther from the truth! If we had ever had even one incidence of this in one of our churches, we would have IMMEDIATELY contacted the cops.

We are so strict about this that hubby doesn’t even do counseling at the church if he’s alone. I go to the church and “practice the piano” if someone wants to come in for counseling and there isn’t a secretary in the building. We make it a rule that we don’t invite guests of the opposite sex into our home if we are home alone, and we don’t even like to travel a short distance in a vehicle alone with someone of the opposite sex.

This protects us from false allegations, as well being good policy to protect church members.

..

Reply
goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:24 pm

Idk, probably most. This was just to point out the hypocritical nature of blaming celibacy for some priests doing evil things

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:34 pm

The official and dogmatic law of the church bans all abortion(any circumstance), being Pro-Choice, gay marriage, in vitro fertilization(due to the massive amount of fertilized eggs, children, killed in the process), contraception, premarital sex, sex in marriage with conception, all birth control (except for medical purposes, ex. The pill helps some women with period issues), all oral sex, all sodomy/anal sex. Sex in the church is defined best in St John Paul II's Theology of the Body which explains sex is a gift from God that we should enjoy for physical and emotional benefit with our spouse but never without being open to the biological reason for sex, which is procreation.

Anyone who lives outside these rules is living in a state of sin in the Church

The Catholic Church has never and will never change its views on the morality of these issues.

Pope Francis is often mistranslated/misinterpreted and rarely fact-checked in the US. 99% of stories you hear about him are fake news.

kspells TheOtherOtherside
02/13/19 6:43 pm

I agree. They could, like catholic priests, become clergy because they are perverted. Or even Gay, not that gay = perverted, just keeps them shielded from society norms. I think the1st red flag is being clergy, second is the vow of celibacy. That isn’t admirable. It’s suspect. God forbid they should marry.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:35 pm

I agree with EVERYTHING that you said in the first comment....and brought that out in my comments there.....with a quote that said it’s not any more prevalent in the Catholic church than it is in the general population!

I also listed links to pages that tell how churches of all denominations can go about protecting kids from this. Churches are soft targets because no one can even wrap their heads around this happening in a place we consider safe and a place to worship God, so pedophiles seek kids out specifically. The articles I linked tell how to look for pedophiles. I also mentioned that Southern Baptists have conferences (I just saw an announcement for one this week) about how to weed out pedophiles when hiring....what to look for, etc.

MORE

..

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/13/19 1:35 pm

2) I see what you mean....but I can tell you that, as a Southern Baptist, I wasn’t aware of any anti-Catholic bias until I came to SoH and have seen it here. It’s not something that I ever heard in ANY Southern Baptist church.

Thanks for everything you said in the second comment. I REALLY appreciate that! If you don’t want to look for the other poll, I could copy what I said there here, if you’re interested. But I understand if you’re only interested in the point you’re making in this poll.

..

goalie31 OrthodoxCatholicChristian
02/13/19 3:37 pm

The same reason we only ordain men as deacons and priests. That is apostolic tradition and church dogma.

There are Catholic disciplines that can change. For example, celibate priests aren't dogma of the church it is a discipline that can be changed, which is why Byzantine Catholic and other Eastern Catholic priests can be married before ordination, but cannot be remarried after they are ordained even if their wife dies.

Also divorce is still banned in the church. Remarriage bars you from receiving the Eucharist (the true presence through Transubstantiation where our communion becomes the actual body, blood, soul and Divinity of Jesus)

MrAmerica Peaceful protestor
02/14/19 4:02 am

I looked it up and I was unable to find a report saying that the abuse allegations against 700 (500 credibly accused) priests only went back 20 years; however I was able to find a article saying that the report didn’t specify any dates, only that the allegations go back decades;
Moreover, the recent Pennsylvania investigation found 300 credibly accused priests, and this included abuse cases from the 40’s.