Is the taboo of women walking around with no shirt or bra simply unnecessary sexualization of breasts?
Yes. I don't want to see it and I wouldn't want to take my own shirt off. But I see plenty of manboobs hanging loose all the time. What's the difference?
Yeah... but we have been conditioned by glossy mags and ads to value perfect nubile bodies over the body's natural progression. I am in awe of the self-esteem people that go to nude beaches have. I could rule the world with that kind of self-esteem!
I have a big problem with those glossy mags and ads!
I don't believe either gender prefers dangling, deflated breasticles.
I'm all good with the sexilization of them. And keeping them even partially covered leaves some mystery and some fun for the imagination
Yes. Just oversexualization of breasts in general is a problem. Breastfeeding in public? A female shower scene in a film obviously not made for kids?
I don't think there is any such "taboo" anymore, and hasn't been since sometime back in the seventies. This is probably the first time I've even heard the subject mentioned this century.
I disagree. I'd like to meet an American crowd that doesn't flip out and/or cover their child(ren)'s eyes upon seeing in public a woman jogging with nothing but pants or a woman breastfeeding.
I read it to be without one or the other, not nude from the waist up, but even so, it's cultural. Take those Americans to Europe for a weekend in small groups, and they'll be over it. It's an avoidable byproduct of our repressive society.
If a woman is raped because of it, she better not be surprised. There are some strange people in the world.
She better not be surprised?! Are you serious?! Why is that? Because a man can't be expected to control himself?! He may see a boob and lose control? Maybe your urges would drive you to rape but I can see a naked breast as just that. A breast.
I don't expect all men to have self-control. Let's face facts, some men do lack self-control. A woman's breasts are different than a man's and it would be ludicrous to debate otherwise.
What's ludicrous is to blame a woman for a man's lack of self control. Or to think any woman is "asking for it" by the way she dresses. Yes, we are animals. No, it's not acceptable to behave like one.
What a disgusting thing to say. Why the hell shouldn't a guy be expected to control himself?
a woman has the right to stroll through central park naked and not be raped. this statement is ridiculous.
just curious, what about those women that are fully clothed without low cut blouses or short skirts or overly done makeup or any of the other invitations for rape? How were they supposed to not be surprised by it?
Aura, which statement is ridiculous? Your's re: Central Park or Rocker's re: self control?
She's probably talking about my statement. I think you all are misunderstanding my previous point. I meant that there are actually some crazy people in the world (yes, including exhibitionists). Why would one intentionally put themselves in a
Position to be a potential victim of rape. The woman would be less than equally responsible, but not 100% blameless. IMO, if humans really are animals then it is unnatural to not act like them. Or perhaps our time would be better spent teaching them
To act like us?
rockers of course, sorry bad puntuation I have a terrible habit of doing that on here >.>
Rocker, a victim is NEVER responsible for their rape; as for humans acting like animals - I thought it was our brains and souls that put us above acting like animals?
How is any woman to know what sexual fetish any man has? Granted, it would be very foolish to tease or entice without intentions but ultimately, if he uses force, he is responsible for his actions.
My dog acts like an animal of the dog variety. My cat like that of the cat variety. Man is a superior animal but an animal no less and should behave as such.
I think we sexualize all nudity. Many of us are squeamish even at the prospect of a nude beach, (which is fine, we all have different comfort levels) but it's important to understand that nudity doesn't always equal sex.
And I think a woman wearing just a bra and a man shirtless are on the same level from a societal viewpoint: okay when working out, etc., but not acceptable in most other public locations.
I said no because I do not believe there is a "Taboo" on not wearing bras. If so, it is self imposed...
No – covering up serves a very important purpose. Men see a lot of breasts in their lifetimes, and you never get "desensitized." They are always going to be "attractive and distractive." That is simply a fact of life. Eliminating this taboo would
make things far worse, and would contribute to sexual violence against women. You cannot change the fact that exposed breasts are seen by many males as an invitation. We guys are jerks. :o)
Speak for yourself.
tlaney, are you suggesting that a scantily clad woman is "asking for it" bec she should know what men are like and shouldn't be expected to control themselves?
The counter examples here are just so obvious I shouldn't even have to list them. Western Europe, tribal areas of Africa and South America, many Polynesian cultures. The sexualization of breasts is a cultural thing, it is not inherent.
Breast feeding does not turn me on in the slightest and I do not see anything wrong with it either.
Whichendizup - Of course not. I am, however, suggesting that a woman who walks around topless is not thinking straight in this society. Big difference. I'm explaining why the taboo exists.
Vincere - I didn't say it was inherent. It is, however, a part of American culture.
please explain "not thinking straight in this society"
Phlegm - i'm not talking about breast-feeding. I'm talking about walking around topless all the time in America. Big difference.
Whichendisup - sorry, bad phrase. What I mean is, not considering the realities of American culture.
what are the realities of American culture that she wouldn't be considering? too much vagueness, without specifics I can't understand your POV
She doesn't understand that this behavior is tabou in our society, and she doesn't understand why. She doesn't understand American men and how they think. Because of our dating behaviors (and the "getting to first base, etc." Mentality, the sight
of breasts is often a "green light" to most men. When they see them in a magazine, they assume that they can have sex with that girl, even if only by fantasizing. When they see toplessness in a strip club, they assume that the girls are easy and
available. So why would anyone think that it would be any different if women started walking around that way on the streets?
because unless she actually verbalizes the word YES then it's NO until otherwise stated. according to your argument any man can assume anything at any time and use "how things are"in American society to support his actions. fact of the matter is, any
person who thinks they can do whatever they want because they feel justified by what they THINK society's norms are, are simply avoiding responsibility for their own actions.
I also think you are underestimating most men in the US. if in fact most men thought this way women would be attacked and/or raped nearly every ten minutes (just an estimate)
Boobs are 2nd base, tlaney! :0P
If a guy sees a topless woman in a public place, he'll follow the "looky but no touchy" rule. He's not going to just jump her like an animal in heat.
Source: I'm an American male
thank you Vincere
But not necessarily in a topless club or all nude review.
I did NOT say that men were justified in acting on those feelings. I simply said that many men felt them. I get it – you're a feminist, and you think that I'm some kind of a sexist male chauvinist pig. You could not be more wrong. I'm a Christian who
who has been happily married for 40 years. I'm analyzing, not confessing. And I'm not advocating that men act on those impulses. I am advocating that we all have a little bit of common sense and keep our clothes on. It has worked well for centuries.
And Dio, you smarta$$, I said "first base, etc." to bring to mind the whole system of assigning bases to actions, not because I was confused as to what first base was. But you knew that, didn't you? :-P. :-P. :-P
tlaney: Maybe we should try to get to the heart of the question. I understand that you're only observing an unfortunate glitch in American culture. Don't you think we should take steps to repair that glitch rather than just cover up and accept it?
Two things off the bat - you don't know me well enough to proclaim me a feminist and i NEVER labeled you, never once made any insinuations as to what kind of person you were or your worth. Doing those only undermine your argument.
I did not say you justified or advocated those behaviors, I said your ARGUMENT justifies those behaviors by allowing someone to say they did x, y or z because they perceive it as a part of the social norm. Your argument relieves men from the
responsibility of self-restraint that everyone must exercise at one point or another. Saying that a man would act on an impulse (any impulse) because a woman altered any physical aspect of herself gives men free reign to do whatever whenever, only
lay blame at the woman's feet. I do not believe that you, personally, feel that way. However, I think you should be aware that your argument is therefore not doing you or your actual POV justice.
V, I sure don't think we can fix anything by just all of a sudden dropping our clothes. I frankly find this subject kind of ridiculous, because I don't understand why anyone would seriously defend public nudity. That's just nuts (NPI).
For the record, male attraction to breasts isn't a cultural phenomenon. We're hard wired for it.
tlaney: That's not at all what I think. But I do think if there is a problem in our culture (such as women not being able to go about topless without worrying about being assaulted), complacency isn't the answer. Cultural shifts are possible through
Ok, so bec you don't understand why someone would support a position different from you, a position that niether infringes on your rights nor does you any harm, that person is nuts?
...education and a little effort.
It's not that all the liberals/libertarians necessarily want to go about nude/semi-nude, they just don't think it's the government's business to regulate such things.
Women contribute to this taboo as well it's not just men. Upgrading sizes, the way some dress (look at Hollywood low cut dresses) all adds to the wanting, desiring something that's right there but you can't quite have until that intimate moment alone
I dont think anything can be done to attempt to reduce the sexyness of breasts. Since the dawn of time, all over the world, and for the benefit of preserving our species, men have been attracted to women with large breasts and wide hips.
Historically, these women have done a marvelous job of attracting mates, getting pregnant, and birthing and nurturing children.
Some men prefer smaller breasts actually. Ones that aren't so big that they can still stand up on their own, nice
Absolutely and it's stupid.
I don't know. It does appear to be something cultural though. In many places in Europe nobody would blink an eye at a female being topless at a beach or pool. Here many people would gasp and she may be cited for public indecency.
The attraction is hardwired into men. This is a proven fact.
What you see in those cultures is actually desensitization, rather than evidence of artificial sensitization in our culture.
Yeah. Having been to places where topless women roam (and talked to them how it feels), it's definitely not desensitization. The local men definitely pay attention, just in a way which is more offhand and respectful.
I'd agree with that, Fred. Desensitization may not be the right word.
You should probably post lots of
Pictures so everyone understands the question.
Not unless he's interested in getting banned…
It was a joke, fiat.
You've reacted like this to jokes in the past, so in case you're unfamiliar with the concept, I'm going to post the entire Wikipedia entry on Jokes for you.
"A joke is something spoken, written, or done with humorous intention. Jokes may have many different forms, e.g., a single word or a gesture (considered in a particular context), a question-answer, or a whole short story.
The word "joke" has a number of synonyms, including wisecrack, gag, prank, quip, jape and jest. To achieve their end, jokes may employ irony, sarcasm, word play and other devices. Jokes may have a punch line, i.e., an ending to make it humorous.
Jokes are typically for the entertainment of friends and onlookers. The desired response is generally laughter; when this does not happen the joke is said to have "fallen flat" or "bombed".
However, jokes have other purposes and functions, common to comedy/humour/satire in general.
I hope that helps.
MD - well you just made me laugh!'
That was amazing X'D
Sarcasm cannot be seen here, so I didn't recognize that it was a joke and still don't find it funny. Your reaction however, that definitely made me smile. :)
When someone says something that would be considered outrageous, like asking someone to post naked pictures on SOH, it should usually be taken as a joke. There are rare cases of people actually being pretty ridiculous, but take them as a form of
humor, at least initially.
I try so hard not to look. But my eyes just won't cooperate.
I don't know, Droo!
I only wear a bra when I'm at work but I don't think I could do no shirt as well.
Love this question!
I've never complained about shirtless women.
Its one thing to go braless in winter with a coat on and sweater in the house. But summertime in a white tee - give me a break. How about those protesters who go bare to make some kind of point. Lol. Didn't mean to end sentence with "double "meaning
Rather have a woman flaunt her breasts than a man actually. But my opinion is biased.
why are these blobs of fat any better than say the ones on hips or stomachs?
It isn't an artificial or cultural construct. Straight men's brains are hard wired to react to breasts. There have been plenty of studies done on it-
I get that, but we are supposed to be so evolved, the epitome of living creatures, and we cannot manage to work on this impulse? we are hardwired to eat and store fat in case of lean times, but we often control that. jtired of hearing "this is just
the way we are" under that argument, there's no reason for bettering anything at anytime - which is a load of horse cr*p
I didn't say it isn't something we should channel and manage, I just said that there is an involuntary physiological and psychological reaction in men that imbues breasts with greater significance than reducing them to "blobs of fat."
So telling men that their attraction to breasts is just a weakness caused by some artificial inculturation of female objectification is patently false.
It's no different than salivating when we see food.
It's natural, but should be reigned in.
that's all I'm saying, reign it in
I don't know, but I am all for it!
Bras are torture devices. I rarely wear one.
Yes, but this question is referring to walking around with neither a shirt nor a bra, not simply failing to wear a bra.
It's funny, because I've seen some men with bigger breasts than some women. I wouldn't be comfortable without a shirt just because of my weight. But if I were skinnier, id be fine with it.