Show of HandsShow of Hands

Mattwall1 October 21st, 2013 1:02am

On January 1, 2014, a new law in California will go into effect which requires transgender students be allowed to use the restroom of the gender they ID with and be allowed to participate on sports teams of they gender they ID with. Do you approve?

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sarah1911 Poolesville MD
10/23/13 3:43 am

Transgender or not, if you can physically make the team you should be on it. As for the bathroom, if your a pre-surgery girl to boy you have to be in a stall, seeing nothing, so what's the big deal. I know men who have looked at men anyway.

sarah1911 Poolesville MD
10/23/13 3:44 am

If your a pre-surgery boy to girl, girls rooms only have stalls, you see nothing.

sarah1911 Poolesville MD
10/23/13 3:48 am

I'm sad that there are people who think they weren't "born right", because as a person with Spina Bifida I grew up believing God doesn't make mistakes, but if people choose to change what's the big deal?

sarah1911 Poolesville MD
10/23/13 3:48 am

On Glee, even without surgery Unique is clearly a happier person than Wade is.

cathyro Long Beach,Ca
10/21/13 5:52 pm

I don't like the bathroom idea. I don't know what grade level we are talking about, but if this extends to a college level then absolutely not!!!

Mattwall1
10/21/13 5:57 pm

I know high schools I think just elementary to high school for the bathrooms not sure about the sports.

Mattwall1
10/21/13 5:57 pm

On both? Or just one? And why?

Happy Hong Kong
10/21/13 1:45 pm

Why do we even have different bathrooms for different sexes?

Unisex bathrooms would be a better idea.

Mattwall1
10/21/13 2:47 pm

Until then should that happen one day do you approve of the restroom idea? And what about the sports teams?

Reneezii Exodus 20. 8 to 11
10/21/13 4:11 am

Sports teams, yes. Restrooms, no, unless you have had surgery for the physical part that matches.

run100wyo wide open WY
10/20/13 9:23 pm

Well why not? Girls aren't girls and boys aren't nosy, they're just sex. So what is to stop a straight boy from walking into a girl's bathroom? Maybe that day he identifies as a girl and then switches back. Ridiculous!

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susanr Colorado
10/20/13 9:51 pm

It won't be made that easy. If this is similar to what we've seen before, each individual will have to declare that they identify with the other gender & will have to undergo counseling. You DON'T just decide one that that your the opposite gender.

susanr Colorado
10/20/13 9:51 pm

It won't be made that easy. If this is similar to what we've seen before, each individual will have to declare that they identify with the other gender & will have to undergo counseling. You DON'T just decide one that that your the opposite gender.

susanr Colorado
10/20/13 9:52 pm

So it's really not ridiculous. Anyone who tried to game the system would have to put themselves through that.

SFLiberal
10/20/13 9:18 pm

Hmm...I thought Libertarians were socially liberal. I guess not.

SFLiberal
10/20/13 9:19 pm

I voted yes only because its not my job to tell people what bathroom they should use.

SFLiberal
10/20/13 9:10 pm

What?

FIAT2LUX On Planet Earth
10/20/13 8:30 pm

Let's stop with the gender-specific restrooms already. Just go co-ed. It would make things so much easier. It's not like we strip down in the main areas anyway.

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FIAT2LUX On Planet Earth
10/20/13 8:32 pm

As far as sports are concerned, no. I strongly disagree. Why? Because of physiological differences in their bodies which, depending on the sport could give them an unfair advantage over their opponents.

doctalk not all who wander r lost
10/20/13 8:02 pm

Trans-Gender. Imagine the sensitivity and embarrassment you would feel should your sexual identity conflict with society or family expectations. The restroom you chose would be a positive but very small part of a solution to your upset.

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susanr Colorado
10/20/13 9:53 pm

I'm so glad you understand. I get so weary of the people who call it ridiculous, or worse, make fun of people. Months ago, there was a transgender teen here. I felt so bad for her.

doctalk not all who wander r lost
10/20/13 10:04 pm

I had a Trans Gender patient with severe hysterical reaction. She( physically a he) would pull up to the office. Replace his boots with heels in the parking lot. Take out a wheel chair and head to the waiting room with mysterious complaints.

doctalk not all who wander r lost
10/20/13 10:06 pm

She left his boots in the X-ray room once and my nurse returned them to him. She was so embarrassed about being discovered that she never returned. had to be a troubled life.

curly
10/20/13 7:42 pm

Blah.

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curly
10/20/13 8:04 pm

Yes, blah. I think it's completely ridiculous. But I don't feel like arguing about it now. I've already gotten into enough arguments this weekend.

Mattwall1
10/20/13 8:06 pm

Fair enough

TomM
10/20/13 7:26 pm

Do you need a special ID or can you just walk in? Do you need to pre-qualify? What kind of "documentation" is needed?

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JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 8:11 pm

"I identify as a girl" is what you have to say

rons Thanks America
10/21/13 9:27 am

Qualified adversary = ability to kick ass!

rons Thanks America
10/20/13 7:14 pm

can anybody walk into any restroom to do their business or do you have to show proof? I think a lot of jocks would do something! Technically it becomes co -ed.

Mattwall1
10/20/13 7:16 pm

You'd have to talk to administrators you can't just walk in one day

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:16 pm

No, it doesn't. Your slippery slope argument is invalid. Try again.

rons Thanks America
10/20/13 7:23 pm

so if I had to go I have to see the Dean and ask permission?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 7:24 pm

Not exactly. Did you read the article?

rons Thanks America
10/20/13 7:34 pm

I read and nothing was said about preventing a jock fro, taking a whizz in the girls bathoom! Do girls that was only girls room have any rights?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 7:45 pm

First your assuming only guys can become teams gender which isn't true. And it's not some spontaneous thing either. Many of the major districts here do this already and have no issues

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 8:10 pm

I didn't read anywhere that you had to discuss it with anyone either, and I read the posted article and several others, Matt, where did you read that the had to talk to administrators?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 8:13 pm

I know that's what my schools article about this said and I I recall that's the policy used in the districts that already do this

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 8:16 pm

Well come to think of it, it didn't say you didn't have to either, but if that's the case, isn't it kinda like an interrogation?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 8:19 pm

Not exactly. It would be more of letting them know, not having them ask questions for 4 hours in a dark room

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 9:02 pm

Why should it be any of the administrators business anyway?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 9:45 pm

Basically it's so they have advance notice and don't find out after the fact and cause a scene.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 9:51 pm

And still singles out people, not like they are asking the entire student body

Mattwall1
10/20/13 9:52 pm

I agree it's not perfect. What would you do instead?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 10:00 pm

Well that covers restrooms. What about sports? And what about until co Ed restrooms are put in?

rons Thanks America
10/21/13 6:02 am

My grandson wrestled a female in High School. He was a little embarrassed. I told him she could make the team she's a qualified advisory.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/21/13 6:49 am

Unsure of what that means. Qualified advisory?

rons Thanks America
10/21/13 9:28 am

Qualified adversary = ability to kick ass!

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/21/13 2:38 pm

Lol Usually I can translate autocorrect, but that one killed me. I'm sorry. :-(

shellybaxter1234 Peaceful Place
10/20/13 6:59 pm

I did not read the story so I don't know if this was mentioned, but the Los Angeles County School District (one of the largest in the country) has had this policy for 10 years with no issues. Transgender people don't generally call attention

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/20/13 6:45 pm

It depends on the sport, but in some cases I feel like the physical differences they were born with might be an unfair advantage in sports.

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Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:50 pm

You agree in principle though?

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/20/13 6:57 pm

In principle yes, but not in sports where one gender has a physical advantage over the other.

Mattwall1
10/20/13 7:03 pm

Why deny equality though?

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:04 pm

If there were a non- transgendered female who was physically faster, stronger, and more athletic would there be an issue?

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/20/13 7:08 pm

The issue for me is they are equal in every way but one, but they are not physically equal. Much as I wish I could, I can't fix that. In any sport where men and women compete against each other, they should be welcome. Divided by gender, no.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:09 pm

There are EXTREME disadvantages to being a person who is transgendered. The numbers are fairly small, so if a few can gain a small, small advantage in their lives due to this issue that is normally and in every other circumstance an enormous...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:09 pm

...difficulty, it's fine by me.

DavesNotHere where am I
10/20/13 7:11 pm

I agree with Zod on this. The reason for separate sports by gender is because of the physical differences between men & women.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:11 pm

Maybe if professional and college women's teams begin to actively recruit diagnosed male-to-female transgendered students who are in transition, it might help remove some of the horrible stigmas transgendered people live with every day.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:12 pm

There are massive differences in athleticism between women anyways. Should ones who are particularly good be driven from their sport?

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 7:19 pm

That doesn't make any sense though. They shouldn't be allowed to compete because they might be better than some of the other competitors? I mean, surely you don't mean to suggest everyone born w male genitalia is physically stronger than all women.

Octopus
10/20/13 6:40 pm

Yes x1000!!

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bringstheeagle Colorado
10/20/13 6:21 pm

Yea, why not? We can work out any concerns as they arise.

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skinner Jersey City
10/20/13 6:20 pm

I considered participating in this but then I realized I really don't know enough about transgender people to make an accurate assertion. Although I personally disagree with the concept.

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Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:25 pm

Why do you disagree with the concept?

skinner Jersey City
10/20/13 6:29 pm

Well like I said I don't know enough about transgender's. Which gender are they sexually oriented towards? Or does it vary from person to person?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:32 pm

Person to person. You can have people who were thought to be male be female and the reverse.

skinner Jersey City
10/20/13 6:36 pm

Okay. My general thought process is people should go in the bathroom of the gender which they are not attracted to. Then we have to deal with the bisexuals.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:36 pm

Orientation, biological sex, gender, and gender role are all different and separate. They are not necessarily linked to the others. Orientation is who the person is sexually and romantically attracted to. Biological sex is the sex organs themselves,

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:38 pm

...gender is what you identify as in your head, and role is your outward projection of your gender. None of these, not even biological sex, is black and white but is instead on a continuum.

Most people are lucky enough to be heterosexual,...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:39 pm

...cisgendered, and have their biological sex and role match the social norms of their gender and orientation. Not everyone is in that boat, though.

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:40 pm

Wait skinner did you say orientation? This isn't orientation it's gender identity

Octopus
10/20/13 6:45 pm

Skinner, I consider myself pansexual (attracted to all types of people regardless of gender). What would you do with me then, to keep me out of the bathrooms of people I may find attractive?

skinner Jersey City
10/20/13 6:46 pm

I know but I consider your sexual orientation to be important in regards to what bathroom you use.

skinner Jersey City
10/20/13 6:47 pm

Yeah Octopus that's what I haven't figured out. I guess the only solution is for you to go in the bathrooms of people of the same gender as you.

Octopus
10/20/13 6:49 pm

I will add this though: I have never gone into the bathroom and thought about how attracted I am to someone else in there. A) I don't like sexualizing people to that extent and B) I generally try to avoid any contact in the bathroom as much as...

Octopus
10/20/13 6:50 pm

possible. I don't see that as being an issue very often. We are all human beings and we should all be able to be mature about these things (I hope).

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:51 pm

Wait skinner now I'm confused. What does being heterosexual homosexual or bisexual have anything to do with going to the restroom!

skinner Jersey City
10/20/13 6:56 pm

I always assumed that's why we have a boys bathroom and a girls bathroom right? To prevent any form of obscene conduct. I'm not sure about that that's just the reason I always assumed.

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:59 pm

But you said sexual orientation not identity. And if someone is transgender I for see why they Gould be discriminated against and why they shouldn't be able to use the restroom of the gender they ID or be on a gender specific sports team of

Mattwall1
10/20/13 7:00 pm

Of the gender they ID with

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:00 pm

I personally think gendered bathrooms are kinda stupid.

skinner Jersey City
10/20/13 7:02 pm

Compromise: gender neutral bathrooms

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:07 pm

Gender neutral bathrooms are a great idea. I have a few transgendered friends and going out into public for long periods of time is extremely stressful and terrifying, in addition to being an exercise in self-destruction which ever way they chose...

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:07 pm

...if they are not passing.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 7:13 pm

I'm not sure if I understand what orientation has to do with where you go to the bathroom anyway.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 7:15 pm

I'd be fine with gender neutral bathrooms. I'm not so scared of the idea of sharing a bathroom with dudes that I need to keep them out. I've been to a few modern clubs with gender neutral bathrooms. It's no big.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 7:48 pm

It would make things easier, go with non segregated bathrooms then

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:09 pm

I don't see how people would not be in favor of allowing women and girls to compete with women and girls and men and boys to compete with men and boys.

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Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:13 pm

People claim it's taking away thee kids rights an many claim that there isn't such a thing as transgender. Many also feel it will be abused which given the stigma I don't see happening at all

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:16 pm

They somehow think being labeled as transgendered would give the student a social advantage. It boggles the mind.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 6:46 pm

I know they would think I'm not, but what can they do? Challenge it? Deny me? And the bullying and harassment is thankfully going down. But maybe you all are right, and my scenario is absolutely impossible, and will never in a million years happen

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 7:05 pm

I wasn't saying all that do it are faking, or even any are, was saying that anyone could if they wanted. Why all the confusing elements? Why not make multi gendered restrooms? Then no confusion, no doubt, no discrimination, no second guesses.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 6:08 pm

So basically use whichever restroom you want?

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citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:11 pm

No. Use the restroom assigned to your gender. Didn't you read either the story or the question?

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 6:20 pm

Both, but confused on what proof would be needed to base what gender I ID with

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:21 pm

No. If you are actually transgender you can't be denied access to the restroom of the gender identify with or prevented from trying out on gender specific sports teams (like basketball) of the gender they identify with.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 6:26 pm

I understand this may sound like an attack or something, but truly trying to understand. How do they know, other than me telling them, what gender I ID with?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:30 pm

It's honestly not something where they can just do a test, although I suppose the closest I can think of would be brain chemistry and even that's not conclusive in a case like this. I dont think anyone is going to fake being a different gender though

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 6:35 pm

I agree, there is no way to prove or disprove, and while no one will ever possibly do it, all I can take is a guy saying: "dude, I know how we can get into the girl's locker room"
Would that be possible?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:39 pm

I know it isn't that simple bob. I think the article says something about how that would work exactly.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:40 pm

Bob, I would recommend seeking out a transgendered person and having a conversation with them.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:41 pm

Rates of openly transgendered students being bullied, harassed, beaten, and otherwise terrorized negate the above scenario.

Octopus
10/20/13 6:42 pm

Bob, if you suddenly claimed one day out of the blue to be transgender, you don't think all of the people who know you just wouldn't think a thing about it? It's a process, not a snap decision. It's your IDENTITY, not a spontaneous choice.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 6:47 pm

I know they would think I'm not, but what can they do? Challenge it? Deny me? And the bullying and harassment is thankfully going down. But maybe you all are right, and my scenario is absolutely impossible, and will never in a million years happen

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:55 pm

Bullying and harassment is ebbing, but at a very, very, very slow pace. And with the furor over marriage equality, students whose parents are anti-LGBT advocates feel empowered to attack the most vulnerable people and claim religious intolerance if

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:56 pm

...stopped. It's not easy by any yardstick to feel your body as a betrayal of who you are, have everyone identify you by physical traits you hate, then be told you're just making it up to perv on the opposite sex.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 7:18 pm

Bob, it's not about "proving" what gender you are. If you tell people you identify as a woman, they will start to treat you as a woman. You would be changing your entire life style just to get into the women's bathroom. I don't see anyone doing that.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 7:45 pm

And you maybe right, but I remember the movie porkys and the drill hole scene, thinking that they may have another tool to gain access, and people treating them a certain way, well it will be protected and moot if it catches on, there may not be...

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 7:47 pm

Anything adverse coming from it, great, but I can see this very thing happening, super if I'm wrong.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 7:47 pm

But really really can't understand how people can say its impossible

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 7:57 pm

I don't know that anyone is saying its "impossible," but it is nothin like Porky's. Being transgender isn't cross dressing and it isn't a joke. It means therapy, possibly hormones, legally changing your sex. It isn't something you do on a whim and

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 7:58 pm

thus, a kid who was a total dudebro two days ago who suddenly says "oh I'm a girl" just isn't going to make sense. He himself probably won't be able to follow through. It would take a level of commitment I don't think such kids have.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 8:00 pm

A scenario I COULD see would be a shy boy being pressured into it by the jocks. But those types of things have always been problems and will always take creative and thoughtful teachers, parents, and principles.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 8:03 pm

I'm not at all saying that transgendered people or the struggles they go through are a joke, but after reading the bill, it will not take anymore proof than the students word. while they won't believe him, god help the first teacher that denies him

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
10/20/13 8:06 pm

Either one of us could be right, we shall see how this is going to pan out. The good news is we will be able to see very soon on the new horizons this bill will cause. I'm sure it will all work out. What do you think?

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 8:12 pm

Ha. I never expect anything to just "work out" ;) regardless, I believe it is right and that ultimately it will be a good idea in the long term.

edrewiii
10/20/13 6:07 pm

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I read that they proposed it, just crazy how they trample on the rights of the other 99.9 percent of the kids.

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citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:12 pm

And whose rights are "they" trampling?

Mattwall1
10/20/13 6:33 pm

How are they trampling on anyone's rights?

Octopus
10/20/13 6:44 pm

I am a woman. If someone else who identifies as a woman (transgendered or not) comes into the women's restroom, I am not going to feel that my rights are trampled on. Why would I? That's preposterous.

edrewiii
10/20/13 6:47 pm

Ok, I'm a 6'4 230lb guy. I'll just say I feel like I'm really a woman and walk on in to the women's restroom. I'm sure they won't mind as long as I explain that I feel like a woman. Things like this is what is ruining our country.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:49 pm

You do not just decide one day that you're a woman. There's a transition process. If you were dressed as and presenting as a woman and living as a woman, they would likely think you were a tall woman.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:51 pm

"Things like this is what is ruining our country."

Sentences like this are what is ruining our language.

Octopus
10/20/13 6:52 pm

Your gender is part of your identity and your everyday life. It isn't a snap choice you make when you feel like it. I don't understand how people can't grasp that and that this is what they take issue with.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:53 pm

And you haven't spoken about how rights are being trampled. You've spoken on how you might feel uncomfortable. You do understand that these are not equivalent things.

edrewiii
10/20/13 6:53 pm

Riggghhhhttt. And how long did it take those kids to decide they were a different sex? I'm sure if you had a daughter you'd be just fine with a bunch of boys that say they are now girls using the same restroom and playing the same sports.

Octopus
10/20/13 6:56 pm

A bunch of boys? You do realize the stigmas and harassment associated with being transgendered, correct? Therefore you cannot possibly imply that a majority of people would choose that for themselves.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 6:57 pm

If they were transgendered students, then it would be a bunch of girls playing together. I'd have no issue with that. Hell, I'd have no issue with a daughter playing with boys either.

edrewiii
10/20/13 6:58 pm

Let's just keep all this kind of crap in places like California and New York. You guys are hilarious. How about when now girls take away a scholarship from a real girl in a sport because they are twice as fast, strong, and better in that sport.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:03 pm

Your argument has been reduced to sports scholarships.

I'd rather we deal with that issue when it comes up than have to deal with more suicides of young transgendered people.

edrewiii
10/20/13 7:09 pm

Not reduced by any means, you guys are so ridiculous on the fact that you already think it's OK for someone to decide their sex that the main argument is finished before it starts. The dangers of it already escapes all of you.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/20/13 7:15 pm

Just know equality is rolling in everywhere. Your best bet is moving to rural Oklahoma. That'll likely be one of the last bastions of intolerance in a couple of decades. Enjoy the company there.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/20/13 7:21 pm

edrewii, do you understand what it means to be transgender?

kscott516 Masks fail
10/20/13 7:34 pm

Edrew, everyone is special now and we ALL have to make adjustments to make the 0.5% minority more comfortable.