Inspired by Sunshine01. Is there a "war on Christmas?"
Christmas to large corporations is a sales opportunity. It really saddens me.
Always has always will.. Try standing in a line day before thanksgiving just to get into Walmart..
The war on Christmas started when someone decided to spend $200 on a pair of shoes for their kids. Don't blame it on someone who says happy holidays instead of merry Christmas.
Isn't that when Hanukkah also became about expensive gifts, at least in the us?
Hanukkah isn't even observed on a large scale in Israel. Not an important holiday in the Jewish calendar. It observed in the US because we didn't want to feel left out during Christmas time (at least as toys go). There's no war on Hanukkah.
I wasn't implying there was, I know it's only celebrated here because of the commercialize toon of Christmas. All I know is now I want gelt and latkes
I'm am atheist and I love Christmas. Btw, it's one of the most pagan Christian holidays.
though I would say there is a war on religion, I can't wait to hear its death rattle
No there is not a war on Christmas. The media might say there is but I've never been seen it.
There is no Christmas programs. They're now called winter programs.
Maybe Jesus was offended his holiday has been turned into consumption & materialistic nonsense
Or maybe political correctness killed it. You know the unisex movement.
That's not a war on Christmas. It's the realization we're all not Christian.
So take Christmas away from all.
No one is taking Christmas away from you. Celebrating Christ's birth should not be dependent on having a school pageant. Christmas can be celebrated in a variety of ways that don't include forcing it on schools.
Realistically celebrating Christmas should be going to church on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. Beyond that you're really moving away from what the definition of celebrating Christ's birth is anyhow.
It's more than that. It's taking away Christmas trees, not being able to have a nativity sceen in a park, and in general killing the Christmas spirit.
I live in Buffalo but everyone else in my family is from LI every long weekend I'm back down there
Lol you are never going to remember it's OI not 01
Huh I guess so. Never thought of that before. There's a different reason behind it than that...
Yeah I know, bad pun eel
Now I'm never going to be able to read that without thinking oy.
Well I'm sorry it was around midnight (here) when I made this poll
I really don't care.
Don't care I messed up or don't care it was midnight
Don't care that you messed up... Sorry I'm in the middle of coaching a little girl figure skating and really distracted. I should have made it more clear. It's completely understandable.
And I just realized that that comment could be taken a couple different ways. The mistake was understandable- not my strange wording.
And that's confusing too. Sorry, I didn't mean it to offend you or hurt your feelings in any way, and if it did I am very sorry.
It's aright! I knew what you meant
Ok good. I just got so distracted because of my conversation w/ Matt below.
Well... Wether or not you are back... Are you following SpeakerAFly? He holds a virtual congress you should join. If you come back
I don't know if I'm coming back fully... I need a week or so and then I'll decide. I'm just kind-of at a rough patch in life right now.
In short: way to many things. My little brother died two years ago a week from Monday and that is like a constant pain, my grandma has AFIB due to failed heart surgery, my classes are really hard and the drop-period has ended,
after a summer or telling school administration I technically should be a senior not a junior they have finally told me that I am a senior, but now I really don't want to be because I had barely even started looking for colleges because I was going
to be a junior, and my brother and parents won't even talk to each other. This has all been in the past two weeks. You know when you have those days where you are just going through the motions of life? It's been like that for almost a week.
Oh. I am so sorry Sunshine. SOH could help get your mind off things.
Sunshine, I'm really sorry and I hope everything works out.
Yeah, but I feel like anything I say won't exactly be me at my best, and if I don't have anything good to say then I really shouldn't say anything at all. And it feels selfish to try to erase my own problems when others' are greater.
Did you skip jr. Year?
Sort of. I'm sixteen, my birthday is in March, and I never skipped a grade. I have always taken advanced classes, and this year I am taking all AP classes except two college ones. I tried to explain to the school admin. That I had no classes
To come back for next year, so I really can't be a junior because I don't have a developmental or social issue. They ignored me, so I just let it be. They came back last week and told me that I need to become a senior. So yep, I guess I did skip it.
It's just hard because I don't know where to go next year or what to major in. What are you guys doing?
I'm working on college apps and school. Can't wait for College apps to be done
Yeah I know. It's so scary filling them out. Do you know what you want to major in yet?
Same, I'm considering applying to a few more schools, including northwestern and Wisconsin, both have great poly sci departments
I really wouldn't recommend WI, truthfully our schools are pretty bad. But if you want to, that's your choice.
Ya Wisconsin is a pretty bad state. Jk
I have no idea what I want to major in, primarily because everything I enjoy doing isn't exactly going to provide a stable career. Economics or political science are both majors that you need at least a masters to use for anything.
No one from NY, especially Buffalo, could ever say a word to discourage WI lol
At least I'm not a cheese head....
It's something called pride, but since you are a Jets fan it's not really your fault that you haven't herd of it...
Discount double check. Jets have one of the most loyal fan bases
Yeah, sure, think what you want. You ever shoveled snow for your team when it was below 0? Because Packer fans do it before ever winter game. Just sayin
I live in Buffalo so if I was a bills fan I would
I'm sure you would...
Sorry how are the packers doing this year? 16-0?
You were not supposed to ask that, but 3-2. May I remind you, though, that the Jets are 3-3 which is just as bad.
But the jets are the jets. Packers were supposed to be great with Arron Rodgers
Aaron Rodgers is doing well- it's the defense that's the problem.
Spoken like a true democrat
MJ: not entrust accurate. I'm a dem. I favor strong defense and realpolitik. Nice try though :)
I'm just messing with sunshine. If I remember correctly she hates being called a democrat
I knew you were joking
:P If I'm a democrat you're a communist MJ.
Now what would that make Matt... A Libertarian perhaps?
I ❤️ communism lets kill those McCarthyists
Well I guess it's a good thing I'm a democrat and you two are conservative republicans. Mj as a communist? Lol
Could you imagine we we ended up at the same college...
Me and you? Me and sunshine? Or you an sunshine? Or all 3 of us?
All three of us..we could have an SOH club
You never know... With God all things are possible (sorry Matt more religious stuff)
It's fine. I could teach you the glory that are lox and bagels, latkes, kinish etc. just avoid manischewitz wine
Most of NYC is like Little Is Israel! I know my bagels!
I thought you were in buffalo.
Then you have to put up with lefse and lutefisk
You guys need to experience small town life. More fun than you would think.
That war has long since been lost.
When consumerism took over as the center of Christmas instead.... Oh I don't know Christ? It was lost.
Surprised they legally haven't changed the spelling to Krismus.
There is a war on saying "Merry Christmas!".
No there's not. Some people choose to say Happy Holidays instead, but I've never been chastised for saying Merry Christmas. Choice is not war
Retailers in my town are specifically told not to to say Merry Christmas. FYI majority of population is Christian.
Shelly- I have been chastised for saying "Merry Christmas". And when buying Christmas cards, I've been told to buy PC Cards.
When i say MC the cashiers just stare into space. They don't know what to do.
Chicken - exactly. They aren't sure what to do because they've been trained to stay away from it.
While personally I let it slide from people I don't know p, because I know they mean well, I urge you to look at Bethany's comment below.
From Sunshine's link: “Yes, we are a predominantly Christian society, but we are also a society of many faiths and we want to respect that.”
The context of the quote is music. It also relates to retail greetings. Respecting differences is not war.
And it never should be either. I suppose a 5-1 ratio is a bit extreme, but the IDEA behind it, that you can't exclusively sing one religion's songs at a public school assembly is a good one,
Grandma I am not jewish but all of my jewish friends enjoy the season and like being told merry christmas even though they don't celebrate it.
Yes to what Matt said ... I am not Christian. I am polite if somebody wishes me a Merry Christmas, but I feel awkward. I was not raised to celebrate Christmas and have never celebrated Christmas.
Don't they still that dreidel song? Why are nativities banned yet menorahs arent? Aren't both religious symbols?
Chicken, we know its meant well, but it's very awkward, I can't speak for Alice, but I don't think either being up in a school is appropriate, not unless you somehow got a symbol for every religion at the school, and something for kids who's parents aren't religious.
So why are menorahs allowed but not nativities?
Chickencookie, we cross posted there. LOL
Have your Jewish friends actually told you that they enjoy being wished Merry Christmas? I ask, because I am braver on this semi-anonymous app. In person, when somebody wishes me a Merry Christmas, I ...
... smile politely, but I feel very awkward about it. Not really offended, just strange like, "Why does she assume I celebrate Christmas?"
I'm atheist and still like hearing "Merry Christmas!". It's like when someone says they will pray for me, I'm not uncomfortable, in fact, quite the opposite. I find comfort in hearing it as I know they mean well.
I'm just going to say... The lady who said that is insane...
GA- I know the feeling.
Which part is insane?
The lady who said WHAT is insane? The issue about school music? Or something else?
Yes grandma they have. If someone says to me happy kwanza i don't give it a thought. I consider it a blessing.
Getting back to the question about dreidel songs and menorahs ...
A public school should not display a menorah. It would be unconstitutional. Retail is different. It comes down to what the business owner feels will bring in more shoppers. There ...
... are no laws about this and there shouldn't be.
Having said that ... There are easily 100 Christmas trees for every menorah at my local mall. Hardly a "war" ... or if there us, Christmas is easily "winning."
"That dreydl song" is, frankly, ...
... a childish ditty, musically on par with something like a Mother Goose rhyme. However, there IS some beautiful Chanukah music, real music. If a school choir mixes this into a program, for some balance, along with Christmas songs, that would be ok.
ChickenCookie, find me an instance on public lands where the menora is allowed yet a nativity is not.
The superintendent of our district (the person who said that). Her performance is now under review. Thanks to her administration by senior year is horrible. I would explain, but it's a really long story.
Sunshine, I apologize, but I cannot find the post you are referencing. Who said what?
Is she insane for saying that? Or insane in your view anyway?
Cite- Alice's first comment on his chain
Matt- completely insane for other reasons, though this event didn't exactly help
It's also called the "Christmas Controversy" it refers to the issue surrounding the celebration or acknowledgment of the Christmas holiday in government, media, advertising, and various secular environments. Personally I think there is no war in Christmas
merry Holiday! Outlaw red and green in december, leave the fir tree alone,. bah Humbug!
I'm creating a new holiday called Allahmas.
LOL@ war on Christmas
Not a very big one, but yeah.
Oh yeah, big time. That's why Christmas starts earlier each year and generates billions of dollars in revenue. Seems like a war to me.
That is kind of the point to me. Corporations and consumerism have become the focus of CHRISTmas.
So, to a traditional Christian the original intent of the Holliday has largely been lost.
No way! There's not a war on Santa or the Tooth Fairy either.
Yes, it is being waged by the liberal left.
Muahahaha, here we come to steal your wreaths and candy canes!!! We liberals have a war room where we discuss how to take out Santa without hurting the reindeer. Because as you know, we're hypocritical animal lovers who hate humans and goodness.
How could us liberal killer racist communists Kenyans not?
So that's why liberals have a tinge of green skin.
Well, vulcans are logical..... (Bad joke alert)
I'm proud of you guys, for not getting upset at my comment. I just wanted to see what the response would be. This is the kind of response one should have, when a slanted comment is aimed at a specific group. Enough with the hate. We can learn.
I'm a bit concerned the number of yes votes are that high...
You're not alone.
Anything to get people all uppity.
Like environmentalists threatening people who harvest their own Christmas trees?
Unbelievable what constitutes as a war in our society. How about you take all your "Happy Holidays" war stories over to the Congo and share them with the locals.
Are we all keeping Christ in Christmas or are we worrying about offending people?
I'm pretty sure we're keeping Christ in Christmas. No one has ever wished me a Merry Mas.
There's not a war on Christmas, but Christmas has made war on everything else.
Christmas in August is not good...just saying.
I use my anti-christ-mass sniper to et rid of those damn elves every year so yeah there's a war and I'm waging it!
Christmas is not over a period of multiple days. There are in fact holidays that are a period of time but you apparently don't like to celebrate those. When you really think about it, saying merry Christmas in mid December doesn't make sense.
May I suggest, the secret of Christmas is not the things you do at Christmas time, but the Christmas things you do all year through.
But Christmas isn't just celebrated for one day.
Christmas includes the four weeks before Christmas Day, called Advent,
and continues through the 12 days after Christmas Day to the Epiphany.
It's appropriate to say Merry Christmas that whole time.
I don't observe Christmas, so it must be in a superposition of dates.
Milkdud is right about the dates, although I don't think there is a war on Christians, or any other holiday for that matter.
What, because people say "happy holidays" or something? That's silly. I'm the Christmas enforcer in my home (hubby could take it or leave it; I get the shakes without a tree) and I say "happy holidays." It's not because I'm anti-Christmas. I'm like
the OPPOSITE of anti-Christmas. I just recognize that not everyone adores the holiday as much as I do. I very weirdly and randomly for hit on one December by an Orthodox Jew who wished me a Happy Hannukah even though I'd already told him (bc he asked
that I wasn't Jewish. I knew he meant well, but it was a little weird. And suddenly, right in that moment, I kind of understood what it's like for people who don't celebrate Christmas to be wished a Merry Christmas. So now I say "happy holidays."
got* hit on not "for hit on." Geez autocorrect.
Thank you. I wish more people could be that perceptive.
Bethany i applaud you for understanding. I'll say merry Christmas to those that want me to, but I get the feeling you're presenting. If its someone who doesn't know me I just let it slide. But it can feel awkward when someone who knows I'm not Christian wishes me a merry Christmas. I know they mean well, but it's still awkward.
Kudos Bethany kudos
No. Last year stores had Christmas sales on thanksgiving day. Christmas can't even wait for Black Friday now! There is a war on thanksgiving!
Commercialization of Christmas could be considered a grievance to many Christians.
Don't we normally get past Thanksgiving before this question gets asked?
Proof that there is no war!
Happy Holidays everyone!
I would like to see something on this issue that is quantifiable. I'm guessing this has more to do with personal perception than an actual empirical assessment.
If you go on empirical evidence, the Christmas season gets longer every year, with decorations going up and sales starting earlier and earlier. If there's an actual war on Christmas, I don't think Christmas is losing.
No, this isn't a matter of opinion. There's no war on Christmas. There are a bunch of Christians with persecution complexes, though, that don't like being told that their illegal an inappropriate privilege has been revoked.
That has more to do with the commercialization and secularization of Christmas, which some people consider to be a component of the war on Christmas. Cite, taking away inappropriate privileges is still taking away privileges which is causation to...
classify it as a culture war.
The spin put on the War on Christmas is usually that of a persecuted minority. Most proponents of this idea do not almost that Christian (or usually any other) privilege even exists.
It's sounds like you are arguing that the war on Christmas is a good thing, not that it doesn't actually exist.
Here is my definition of "War on Christmas": A movement to reduce the privileges of Christians.
FNC is the major pusher of the War on Christmas. Watch their coverage. Tell me when they acknowledge privilege.
It's too early on the calendar to be having this discussion.
You mean like a secularization? If so, then yes, I suppose, but no more so than secularization of anything else.
What's funny is that the Christians co-opted Christmas from the pagans in the first place (not that I blame them; it's a lovely holiday and I'm quite pleased they made it mainstream!)
Just saying- my school district sucks.
I understand where the school board is coming from. No one complains because no one wants to be the one who complains about kids singing - I mean come on. But if you have never been in the situation of being in a room surrounded by people singing
openly religious songs - from a religion you don't belong to - it may be difficult to understand the vague but potent sense of awkward discomfort. It's this disconnect of feeling the positivity and closeness but almost like having this big flashing
sign at the same time screaming "YOU'RE NOT LIKE US" and it can be deeply depressing. You can't complain, because no one did anything "wrong" & you don't object to people having their religion, but that palpable sense of difference is deeply painful.
Someone thoughtful at the school board recognized this and tried to strike a balance so that the Christians could get to enjoy their holiday music at the school performance without making non-Christians feel uncomfortable. The response saddens me.
It signals a lack of an ability or willingness to exercise some empathy and think about it from someone else's perspective. It's not an attack on Christians. It's a recognition that a public school is not a Christian school.
MJ mind if I share this? I don't think there is but it's a good question nonetheless
Yes - it's part of the war on Christians.
Can you elaborate?
I agree, tl, but I'm just not interested in what will likely turn out to be another Christian-baiting episode. Go for it if you're in the mood, youre more patient than I am.
That's probably true katz. I can see why there isn't much discussion on this topic here.
War on Christians! More like people realizing that not everyone is a Christian in this country and they are trying to respect people's beliefs.
Just going to put this link out there one more time- I don't know what you would call it, but it's at least bad discrimation. All from my horrible school district ( I always knew it sucked)
And your rights as a Christian have been taken away in what way exactly?
The 5-1 ratio. A 1-1 would be fine, but 5-1 is discriminatory against those of faith.
I have a different take on it - see my comments above. I think it is about keeping it festive but not making non-Christians feel like they accidentally snuck into church.
What does a "War on Christmas" constitute of?
About 1/4 said yes, but no comments. I'd really like to hear what they think constitutes a "war on Christmas".
Burning effigies of Santa? Chipmunks roasting on an open flyer?
Ha, that's funny.
No. Though, I'd hardly call it Chistmas, anymore. I prefer to call it Retail Season.
No, and they better not even try to ruin that as well...
As well as what?
Who is this "they" you speak of?
No. What's not to like about Christmas?
Hey I go to the movies, it's pretty fun,
The music that starts IMMEDIATELY after Halloween has ended? That's my big holiday pet-peeve.
Hush, Scrooge! Christmas music is magical! MAGICAL.
I live at the corner of Bah ct. and Humbug ave.
Oh! I think I'll add your corner to the caroling map ;-)
(TEASING just to be clear)
(not just to be CUTE?)
And there isn't a war on any holiday at that time of year either.
No war on international phone case day? Nobody has celebrated it for years
So people are trying to even out things? I could say there is a war in Hanukkah because there are more Christmas sings. I'm sorry, but if the fact people aren't exclusively singing Christians songs in a PUBLIC school constitutes a war on Christmas, then I don't think the issue ultimately lies on us non Christians, or us who respect the rights of other religions.
Sing Christmas songs. They're actually great music, but if it's a public school, and the student population isn't just Christian, singing only Christmas songs can easily be offensive. I think the 5-1 ratio is odd, but is it the fact they aren't allowing only Christmas sings or the ratio itself you're objecting to?
My problem is the Wausau West Masters Singers (who are about the most amazing singers) sing songs from a really long time ago to provide a full musical education. From some of the time periods they sing from the only appropriate music is Christian
Because of the amount to raunchiness and the vulgar talk in other music from that time. They sing in 10+ languages throughout the year, and many spiritual songs are sung in a different language. Mr. Buch is a man of faith, but
Could they bring in other singers or do something to even it out? Do these singers make it aware it's from a historical and not religious context? (Although silent night in a medieval town would've been anything but)
He chooses music purely from an educational standpoint. The students who try out for Master Singers know perfectly well that they will sing religious music, and no one is forcing them to try out. The community as a whole (including
The vast majority of atheists was outraged, In ten hours of asking people to sing petitions against this only thirteen people said no to me.
Is this an assembly they're singing at in a public school?
If so, I can understand some requirement, although 5-1 is odd. Maybe 1-1
And about evening out the amount of singers, West has six choirs. Freshman, Ladies, Men, Sophomore, Concert Coral, and the most exclusive one- Master Singers. The rest of the choirs were going to just go with the flow, but Masters isn't.
They do sing some for assembly (but I don't actually go to West) but it goes way beyond that. They sing all over the community. I would also be fine with a 1-1 ratio.
On school grounds I think we can both agree 1-1 Christian to non Christian (probably a mix of other holidays and just general seasonal music) off campus like at nursing homes, I HOPE if they're audience isn't exclusively Christian they throw in some other stuff, but I think a requirement especially 5-1 is a stretch. But a war on Christmas? That's also a stretch.
I agree the school administrators were stupid in wanting a 5-1 ratio, but I don't think that constitutes anything close to a war on Christmas.
When out in the public they do sing non-religious songs. It would be really bad if they didn't. I just think it's instituting a discrimination AGAINST those of faith with a 1-5. Our community is known to have about 90% religious people,
As I said 5-1 is a stretch. Are all these 90% Christian?
So I completely understand that it would be really hard to be part of that 10%, but the problem is they act like 75% of the community isn't religious.
As stupid as the school was, I don't think this constitutes a war on Christmas.
No. We have a large Jewish population, a large Mormon (say what you want I don't consider them Christians), and a small amount of Buddhists.
Ok. Still a reach by the school, but a war on Christmas?
And at Christmas programs those religions are all honored.
Look, this may be special to my community, but people PROTEST outside our church (not many people, but still) on Christmas Day. If that isn't a war against Christmas then what is?
First of all, let me say those protesting the holiday shouldn't be. Is anyone coming into your home, saying "if you worship Christmas, you'll go to jail." Or "be killed" or just coming in and killing, raping or brutalizing Christians? Are there any anti Christian pogroms? No.
And, because my dad is a pastor we have had people come to our house around Christmas just trying to harass us. It's horrible.
You need a day in my shoes. It would change your opinion a lot...
Again, those people are wrong and shouldn't harass you. But are any if the things I mentioned happening to Christians thought the country? No. And I hope there never is against ANY group. But a sing ratio (even if odd and a bit too far) doesn't constitute a war. I am deeply sorry anyone wants to harass you. I think those people are stupid and wrong.
I think you need a day in mine. I'm from a ethnic-religous minority, and one that's always been one, and one that's ACTUALLY been persecuted for the past 2 plus millennia. while I had family leave Britain and Germany as middle class merchants I also had family escalating the tsars. Believe me, what those who are harassing your family or your parish I are doing is incredibly wrong, it doesn't constitute a war on Christmas,
Well, anyway, I pray for you. One day when you do come to faith just know that some random girl in WI prayed for it to happen.
I know you mean well with your statement
Here, I going to go ahead and tell you why I can't stand it when people don't believe. I never talk about this, but it's not entirely true that I have two little brothers. I had three, but two years ago my brother who was in eighth grade passed away
Maybe a week before he had told me he didn't believe. I don't know if he had it in his heart. I just don't want any other family to have to go through that. So please just try going to church. I know it's a lot to ask, but try.
Sunshine: I'm incredibly sorry. I jus meant I know you mean well when you say you'll pray for me, but at least to me given my religious background it comes across as an awkwardness that's incredibly difficult to describe like when people
Who know me wish me a merry Christmas. I lave no issue with them and I know they mean it well from the bottom of their heart. It's just an extreme and incredibly difficult to describe form of awkwardness.
Sunshine I've gone to inter religious groups. I've never believed in Christianity, even after being explained several tented from many denominations.
Sorry if it sounded like I was forcing my opinion on you, but it's just something that is so close to my heart, you know?
I understand sunshine.
And the past two songs that played on my iPod are Bad Day and How to Save a Life. It's a cruel world :(
No at least I hope not Idk what the child inside me will do if there was lol
No, but there is a war on Christmas decorations being up before and during Halloween and Thanksgiving times :P