Show of HandsShow of Hands

Mattwall1 October 15th, 2013 3:01am

"No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her own body." Margaret Sanger. Agree or disagree?

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Comments: Add Comment

jonny323
10/15/13 7:32 am

Freedom is not an all or nothing deal.

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skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 5:24 am

Yes controlling your body is important but when you become the host of another boy or girl you have a responsibility to that child.

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aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:14 am

And it's important to be able to control if and when you take on such a responsibility.

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 7:31 am

Exactly and women can. But once they have committed to the responsibility they don't have much time to change their mind.

aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:36 am

They have 24 weeks provided they can scrape up the funds in time. I'd love to see us move abortions earlier in the pregnancy, but things like banning medical abortion and requiring unnecessary ultrasounds push it later.

aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:39 am

And as of right now they can only do that if they can afford reliable birth control. The ACA requires insurance to cover it which will help keep women from having to consider abortion in the first place if it sticks around, but no guarantee.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
10/15/13 7:32 pm

You can get a condom for 75¢. If that's too expensive for you, then you should just keep your pants on.

aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 8:34 pm

Not nearly as effective with typical use. Can tear, come off, etc.

rons WOKE is sick
10/15/13 3:39 am

Controlling bodily functions is important!

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dotails DotUrTsAndCrossUrEyes
10/14/13 11:45 pm

Under God we have complete freedom to do as we please though he warns us that our actions have reactions. Under the law of the land however we are not free to murder as it is wrong. This whole freedom is posturing to get away with murder.

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aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:10 am

I think birth control was the subject here...

Mattwall1
10/15/13 7:20 am

The quote was related to birth control. Sanger did advocate for abortion rights, although this wasn't the subject with this quote.

dotails DotUrTsAndCrossUrEyes
10/15/13 8:02 am

Abortion attributed to the right of women's bodies so I wanted to make this clear in case anyone thought that women's rights trumped baby's rights. There is a limit to women's right and I have displayed that limit.

MissPresident California
10/14/13 11:20 pm

Dude you have way too many Democrat followers

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Mattwall1
10/14/13 11:25 pm

Actually most of the people who voted in this poll were independents, and only 5 more democrats voted than republicans. That said I think my followers in average tend to be more socially liberal, if not fiscally liberal, than the app on average.

MissPresident California
10/14/13 11:51 pm

I meant by just looking at the comments, but it's good you have diversity!

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 5:22 am

Yeah Miss this is one of the liberal hangout rooms. Don't expect to make any good conservative points here without getting into a serious argument.

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 5:23 am

That said, I can sympathize with you Matt, I don't have nearly enough Democrat followers, sometimes it feels like an echo chamber.

Mattwall1
10/15/13 6:07 am

I have wanted more conservative followers for a while, especially now that I have the upgrade, I can have more votes. And not have the poll close in a few hours.

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 7:28 am

Exactly. Speaking of that. How did you get an upgrade?

Mattwall1
10/15/13 7:29 am

Twss was very nice and awesome and upgraded me.

curly
10/14/13 10:17 pm

Agree, so long as she doesn't say that a fetus is her body.

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aj1545 Cat Lady
10/14/13 9:31 pm

Totally agree.

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/14/13 9:24 pm

Totally agree. I'd change that to be a little less limiting though. "No person", gender neutral. It's just that over 200 years of US history treats the "he" as a given, and the "she" as a maybe with restrictions.

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Mattwall1
10/14/13 9:45 pm

I didn't change it to no person because then it wouldn't be a quote, and I figured the quote would be more powerful.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/14/13 9:52 pm

Definitely, I didn't mean to change the quote, just that it's a thing that should apply to everyone.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 9:20 pm

Interesting to see how many people feel the need to talk about things other than the specific quote offered for discussion.

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Mattwall1
10/14/13 9:21 pm

I probably should've seen that happening. I didn't though

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 9:22 pm

Not blaming you, Matt. It's a good quote and it expressed an important sentiment. I just find the knee-jerky comments interesting.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 9:45 pm

I didn't think you were

Octopus
10/14/13 9:13 pm

How do so many libertarians disagree with this? Isn't this part of their entire main principle?...

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violence Pretty hate machine
10/14/13 9:18 pm

No, they're just pretenders. Libertarians, as a group, can be effectively summed up by, "Do what you like, as long as it's what *I* like."

Octopus
10/14/13 9:19 pm

Right. Everything is a constant double standard. I'm sick of it.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/14/13 9:28 pm

violence, I'm stealing that. It's the best description I've seen yet. It applies to the most of the other groups claiming to promote "freedom" as well, I think.

violence Pretty hate machine
10/14/13 9:32 pm

Have at it. It's certainly what I've noticed about the ones that choose to discuss their political outlooks.

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 5:26 am

I don't get in the habit of defending libertarians but on this issue I will. They simply respect the life of the child within the women's womb.

aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:11 am

Agree. I find a surprising amount of anti-woman sentiment among libertarians. Freedom when it applies to you...

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 7:25 am

Being pro life is not being anti women. There are plenty of females who are pro life.

aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:30 am

It's more than that, abortion is a single issue. The fact that some women are pro life isn't proof of anything, I could just as easily say it's proof they've internalized sexism. Somehow SOH libertarians aren't too keen on birth control either

aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:31 am

Example being many here (not sure in general) don't support insurance coverage for it. I don't see anyone arguing insurance shouldn't cover treatment for erectile dysfunction or any other preventable health issue.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
10/14/13 9:09 pm

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," - Margaret Sanger

Agree or disagree?

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Mattwall1
10/14/13 9:12 pm

Well, I'm definitely against exterminating ANY population, and I've never said I agreed with everything she said, in fact, this is maybe the one time I agree with her at all.

Octopus
10/14/13 9:15 pm

Great argumentative fallacy there, Pinky.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 9:17 pm

The one thing being the no woman can call herself free quote

Mattwall1
10/14/13 9:17 pm

The one thing being the no woman can call herself free quote

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
10/14/13 10:07 pm

My point is, that I refuse to give anything Margaret Sanger said the time of day. That woman did more to promote mass genocide than Hitler and Stalin combined.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 11:37 pm

So, pinky, you are unable to separate your emotions about a person from your assessment of anything that person subsequently says?

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
10/15/13 4:05 am

It's not emotions. It's recognizing evil for what it is and choosing to not have anything to do with it.

scottt
10/14/13 9:03 pm

So... Let's say a female has control of her body. What is she free from?

AngryAngel Oswego, IL
10/14/13 9:04 pm

A responsibility to carry a child for 10 months.

scottt
10/14/13 9:08 pm

So she is free from responsibility?

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 9:12 pm

Maybe. Are all men therefore inherently free from responsibility?

scottt
10/14/13 9:25 pm

Why does your version of being free from the responsibility of child bearing come in the form of abortion instead of abstinence?

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 9:27 pm

Huh? You suggested that being free from carrying a child was freedom from responsibility. I was asking for clarification of what you were saying, since men are physically incapable of doing it and are therefore free from the responsibility.

AngryAngel Oswego, IL
10/14/13 9:34 pm

In my eyes, it's the duty of the man to care for the female and the child, if they choose to keep it. The responsibility I was speaking of, was if you have sex and get pregnant, you have a responsibility to care for the life you created.

AngryAngel Oswego, IL
10/14/13 9:35 pm

This is only my opinion. I know we somewhat differ bethany.

scottt
10/14/13 9:38 pm

Oh, sry Bethany. That was for the angry angel.

scottt
10/14/13 9:39 pm

Gotcha angel. Thanks for clarifying.

aj1545 Cat Lady
10/15/13 7:14 am

You say freedom from responsibility as if that's a bad thing for women. How is the freedom to choose if and when to have children bad? The freedom not to endure childbirth? We're talking birth control here. It's a freedom men already have.

AngryAngel Oswego, IL
10/15/13 7:57 am

Was referring to abortion. But was trying to avoid an argument if you don't mind

Diogenes FreeMeBe
10/14/13 8:43 pm

Spoken like a true eugenecist.

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ModerateGOP26 Maine
10/14/13 8:42 pm

Sanger was a psychotic, racist progressive (yes, as Woodrow Wilson proved, the terms can definitely exist in perfect harmony) and hardly anything she says should ever be remembered. However, I agree with that quote.

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Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:51 pm

It's one of the few times f not the only one I agree. That said I don't go as far as she does, even here,

ModerateGOP26 Maine
10/14/13 10:54 pm

Honestly, I've heard some scholars speculate that she was very mentally unbalanced. Obviously she did some good things for women's rights, but there are about a million people who are much better ambassadors for progressivism than she, haha.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 10:56 pm

That's true. I don't doubt it to be honest she likely was. I ta for my us history teacher and she had this as the quote of the day, so I figured I would use it somehow.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:37 pm

I'm beginning to think posting this was a mistake....

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MissPresident California
10/14/13 8:40 pm

Debate is good it helps us understand the other side while strengthening our own beliefs

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:42 pm

True, I meant more the fact it could turn into absolute chaos

twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:55 pm

Not a mistake, Matt. Good poll.

Octopus
10/14/13 9:16 pm

It wasn't a mistake.

MissPresident California
10/14/13 8:30 pm

A baby has its own body

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MissPresident California
10/14/13 8:38 pm

Let me rephrase that: yes, the statement is true however it is limited when violating someone else's liberty

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 9:16 pm

A baby does, yes. A fetus, however, is literally physically attached to a woman and feeds off of her system.

MissPresident California
10/14/13 10:16 pm

That's like saying twins who are physically stuck together are one person. They rely on each other or survival but they are still 2 distinct entities with 2 distinct minds.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 10:19 pm

I didn't say they were one person, so no, it isn't like that. I said they were physically attached, which they are. Btw, sometimes conjoined twins are surgically separated even if it means one will likely die, to improve the life of the other.

MissPresident California
10/14/13 11:16 pm

Just because they are physically attached doesn't mean one has more power over the other. And both people need to agree for conjoining twins to be physically removed.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 11:31 pm

I'm talking about when they are babies, before they are able to voice an opinion. And of course the woman is more powerful than the fetus. Her body will save her life over the fetus' if it comes down to it (eg she is starving say).

MissPresident California
10/14/13 11:49 pm

Just because you can't voice your opinion doesn't mean you are less than human. And when it comes down to it, the body is not the one deciding to have an abortion.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 1:16 am

It isn't necessarily about being less than human. It's about whether we want the law to require women to host other living beings inside their bodies against their will. Abortion is not an easy decision and no pro-choicer pretends it is. But forcing

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 1:17 am

a woman to carry a pregnancy and give birth against her will just plain doesn't work. Her body is intrinsically tied to the fetus'. Anything she does to herself, she does to the fetus. To criminalize abortion is to criminalize a woman's total control

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 1:18 am

over her own body. Whatever reasons you feel you have for doing that, that's still what you're doing. I know some people still value fetal life over women's rights when it is put that way. As a woman who intends to have kids someday, I don't, and

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 1:19 am

that is not a world I would want to bring daughters into. If I have a daughter, I don't want her to feel she is a prisoner to her own body. That's how the pro-life movement makes me feel. Like I'm not a person; I'm "just" a woman/incubator.

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 5:30 am

Okay Beth how would you feel about banning abortion after 20'weeks?

DeusOrbus Stay Positive
10/15/13 7:15 am

Skinner abortion is already limited to 24 weeks for humane reasons, there's no reason to limit it to 20 weeks.

skinner Jersey City
10/15/13 7:32 am

By 20 weeks the fetus fits the scientific definition of life

DeusOrbus Stay Positive
10/15/13 7:45 am

lol, cells are living, a single cell is life, sperm are living. It meets the definition of life before that.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:05 am

Skinner, my opinion is that any laws passed regarding abortion should, at a minimum, employ prevailing medical opinion. We should not have law being made that outright IGNORES the counsel of countless medical professions (cough Gonzales v. Carhart).

MissPresident California
10/15/13 10:46 pm

Actually it is about being less than human because you're saying women should have the right to kill a fetus, but women don't have the right to kill a human. If you don't want your child to live in this world, don't have a child. Don't start a life..

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 10:47 pm

How many types of people have the right to live inside another person's body?

MissPresident California
10/15/13 10:48 pm

then end it because you don't want it to live in this world. I'm sorry, but whether the child lives in this world is not up to you.

leilu SoCal
10/14/13 8:21 pm

Also by Sanger:
Couples should be required to submit applications to have a child, she wrote in her "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review, April 1932

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leilu SoCal
10/14/13 8:21 pm

...and this too

The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in the Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:25 pm

Trust me, it's not like I agree with her on everything. Not even close.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:25 pm

Trust me, it's not like I agree with her in everything. Not even close.

leilu SoCal
10/14/13 8:25 pm

that's a relief!!

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:26 pm

Do you really think I'd believe that?

leilu SoCal
10/14/13 8:33 pm

We're both probably a little weird! And no, I don't think that you would agree with her above statements!

Statek Im from the Internet
10/14/13 8:19 pm

Not sure if this is aimed against Islam or something else..

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:19 pm

I wasn't even thinking Islam.

Statek Im from the Internet
10/14/13 8:38 pm

Yeah, Islam..
Women are controlled by men almost (if not) completely

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/14/13 9:18 pm

The entirety of Islam? Um, pretty sure my Muslim feminist lawyer best friend would beg to differ there. Her husband knows better than to try to control her.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 9:19 pm

State, it's only the extremists that do that, not most Muslims

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 5:16 am

You call them extremists, but they are really the closest thing to being a pure(/100%) Muslim

DeusOrbus Stay Positive
10/15/13 7:18 am

Well yes just like the closest 100% pure Christians stone their neighbors for working on the sabbath.

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 7:27 am

I mean, if they are a true Christian and the bible says they should, why would they not?

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 7:54 am

Statek, unless you yourself are Muslim I suggest you lay off pronouncing who among them practices their own religion the "best."

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:08 am

This isn't opinion, these are facts
What do you call someone who swears that they live by a book when they throw out bits and pieces?

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:12 am

What facts, statek? Are you holding yourself out as an expert on a religion you don't practice? On what basis do you presume to speak for a people of which you are not a member?

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:17 am

Look in the Quran
Stoning and killing people who don't act as Allah wants is not something it talks about, but commands specifically
It even explains how the stoning should take place

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:21 am

You speak fluent Arabic? You understand the Quran in its original language?

For your next trick, do you plan to tell the Jews that the Talmud is wrong and they are required to interpret the Torah the way you want them to?

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:26 am

I like how you're ignoring the facts
You can look up videos of Muslims explaining their beliefs in both Arabic and English, and they are saying the same thing
Stop believing that they don't, because they do

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:28 am

Who is "they"? I know that some Muslims believe some awful things about their religion. All I have said is that this is not true of all Muslims. You seem to need to paint all Muslims with the same brush. The burden is on you to justify that.

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:30 am

Have you read the Quran? It spells this out
All of the followers don't believe in exactly that, but the book says it

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:32 am

I haven't read it in the original Arabic, no. Have you? And are you this obnoxious to Jews? Their religious texts, translated into English, also seem to compel some pretty horrific acts. Are Reform Jews not "real" Jews in your estimation?

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:33 am

I'm not talking about Jews here because I do not yet know enough about them

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:36 am

What is the source of your putative knowledge of Islam?

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:39 am

Muslim/Islam scholars and their websites/videos

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:40 am

As well as from a group of Iraqis that we "watched over" while they were in America for the first time while learning how to use some equipment

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:41 am

Have you ever had a conversation with an American Muslim?

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:43 am

Yes
Both middle eastern and American

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/15/13 8:46 am

And they told you that anyone who has an interpretation of the Quran that differs from theirs is not a real Muslim? And all of them agreed 100% on everything about their religion?

Statek Im from the Internet
10/15/13 8:51 am

They agreed that they weren't textbook Muslims and said that they were more of 21st century Muslims who were there for the general idea of Allah and his teachings and the culture

jvc1133 61535
10/14/13 8:17 pm

Don't really care, however should I return the opposite I'd probably threaten to punch me in the nose

rightway101 the thought provoker
10/14/13 8:14 pm

Complete agreement, but you taking care of your body is not the same as you taking responsibility for another.

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BamaGirl ROLL TIDE from Arizona
10/14/13 8:10 pm

While I might agree with this statement, I do not agree with Margaret Sanger in general.

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BamaGirl ROLL TIDE from Arizona
10/14/13 8:15 pm

Also, Ms. Sanger & I would disagree on how to apply this control. I'm not opposed to birth control, but I believe self-control outside of marriage is more important.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:16 pm

Do you think it should be denied to unmarriedcouples?

BamaGirl ROLL TIDE from Arizona
10/14/13 8:20 pm

I would not advocate denying birth control to any adult. My point was that she saw having multiple sex partners as a mark of freedom & I don't. This is being a slave to carnal desires, as she used the concept of slavery.

violence Pretty hate machine
10/14/13 8:22 pm

I think that varies from person to person. One partner or many: it's no one's business but yours.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:22 pm

I don't see that as freedom either. I'm not saying dint have sex outside of marriage, but multiple people at once? That's just too far for me.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:22 pm

It's not my business, you are right. I wouldn't do it, but I have no right to tell someone they can't.

BamaGirl ROLL TIDE from Arizona
10/14/13 10:04 pm

I'm not saying that it is your business or mine. Ms. Sanger advocated that a woman was declaring her freedom by her sexual activity & use of birth control. I am simply saying that I don't think that is the way to declare total personal freedom.

CalTexHawk spiral arm
10/14/13 8:09 pm

Isn't that true of any person regardless of gender?

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Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:10 pm

Yes, but then it would be paraphrasing, not a quote.

CDFL alt right, alt snowflake
10/14/13 8:11 pm

I paraquote all the time, because I do what I want

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:12 pm

I don't believe in para quoting.

ModerateGOP26 Maine
10/14/13 10:55 pm

^ Great debate here. ;)

Keldeo Laverre City
10/14/13 8:08 pm

Naturally. But the line is drawn when that freedom is used to limit that of others.

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twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:06 pm

Part of being a woman is taking responsibility for what your body is capable of creating. Others may disagree, but I don't feel that interferes with my freedom.

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violence Pretty hate machine
10/14/13 8:07 pm

Your second sentence is key--notably "others", "I", and "my".

violence Pretty hate machine
10/14/13 8:11 pm

YOU don't feel it interferes with YOUR freedom. I feel it interferes with MY freedom.

Pro-life (are you pro-life?) folks shouldn't tell others what to do. Conversely, neither should the other side.

twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:18 pm

It's a poll that has asked me to agree/disagree. That's how I've answered - using MY opinion. Where in my response did you find that I told anyone what to do? I would say I'm more pro-choice than I used to be, but that term doesn't define my...

twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:18 pm

...feelings on the subject. Neither does the term pro-life.

twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:21 pm

Then perhaps I misinterpreted your response, as I believe you have misinterpreted my initial post.

violence Pretty hate machine
10/14/13 8:24 pm

No, I just wanted to elaborate on it. My response wasn't an indictment. I didn't even know where you stood on the issue (which is why I asked).

twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:30 pm

Gotcha. Abortion is a very tough subject for me to give a black or white answer. I'm patently pro-life for myself, but I also don't feel it's my job (or anyone else's) to legislate what every woman in the US can do with her body. I do believe that...

twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:31 pm

...being a woman means shouldering some responsibilities that men don't have and presumably never will. For me, that's fine. For others, well, not my call.

violence Pretty hate machine
10/14/13 8:33 pm

For what it's worth, I find that to be a perfectly respectable position.

twss trump is a garbage human
10/14/13 8:37 pm

Thank you. I can respect that you disagree with my personal position. It's a very complex issue, from all sides. This is as close as I've been able to come to a position that makes sense, considering the variables.

bringstheeagle Colorado
10/14/13 8:05 pm

I agree with her smart woman.

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BamaGirl ROLL TIDE from Arizona
10/14/13 8:13 pm

She was a proponent of eugenics.

Mattwall1
10/14/13 8:19 pm

I definitely disagree with her in that. Some things, like access to birth control and the fact I'm pro choice, we agree on. I'm nowhere near as radical as she was though.

Skarface Banned
10/14/13 8:04 pm

The very first person to disagree is a Libertarian. How does that work?

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CDFL alt right, alt snowflake
10/14/13 8:05 pm

I think it means someone who is registered as libertarian on the app chooses the "disagree" option

Skarface Banned
10/14/13 8:06 pm

CDFL, that can't be right. You must be delusional.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
10/14/13 9:12 pm

Or, it could be a libertarian who recognizes that a woman's control over her body ceases at the point that she attempts to harm another human being. Namely, her child in the womb.

Skarface Banned
10/15/13 3:52 am

I like how almost every conservative that saw this instantly thought about abortion.