Show of Hands

I mean you pretty clearly stated two totally different instances I don’t see a need to go into detail to tell you what’s different about 2 completely different statements

If this being knows in advance that one will never accept him, why make/let them even exist? Seems a little cruel and unusual, when said punishment is eternal.

He creates everyone with the free will to accept or reject Him. That gives each of us a chance to choose rightly.

But he already knows the outcome, so he is knowingly sending people to their doom.

Voc, this belief is called predestination. Hubby and I don’t believe in predestination....that God DECIDED who would be saved and who wouldn’t, so there is no need for a salvation experience. We believe he FOREKNEW who would be saved.

In other words, he doesn’t make that decision for us, but knew from the beginning of time who would and who wouldn’t accept Christ. We also believe that, because God knows who and who will not accept Christ, that He is waiting on the last person that will ever accept Him to do so before His second coming.

..

See my comment to Tom above. This doesn't make sense to me.

See below. I can’t figure out if it does or not.

Meh....not even worth my time to speculate on imaginary bs.

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Do you have evidence Unicorns don’t exist?

How about evidence that Uranus doesn’t exist! Or myanus for that matter!

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Yeah, there’s been lots of things in Uranus. I forgot.

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I agree with you.

Or as much sense as being an all-knowing being that can't find the first two humans he just made that are hiding in his garden.

Succinct.

Well, the poll doesn’t describe Calvinism accurately in the first place

Wasn’t predestination a teaching of Calvin? Sorry if I’m mistaken, I’m not as well versed on the subject as I’d like to be

Yes - it was, but predestination is a part of salvation not eliminating the necessity of salvation.

Okay, I still don’t agree with predestination, but that makes more sense

Predestination is a Catholic belief as well; it just isn’t dogmatically defined how predestination exactly “works”. Thomism and Molinism are the main two “modern” theological camps within the Catholic Church which deal with the subject of predestination.

I think my denomination believes in predestination, but my denomination has also started to rift between the liberal churches in the east and the more conservative ones in the Midwest. (One example being that our synod has followed the church in marrying sane-sex couples, but the conservative synods in the Midwest are resisting any change.)

Nevertheless, my pastor has never ever mentioned predestination when I converted from Catholicism to the (Dutch) Reformed Church in America.

And I do not believe in predestination. That’s a bunch of BS.
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* same not sane. LOL

God decided before the foundation of the world who will be eternally saved (Ephesians 1:4). There is more to salvation than election as alluded to in this poll. As a result of election, Jesus died on the cross for the Elect’s sins. The Holy Spirit Within time moves into God’s children’s hearts forming new desires in that individual.

Doesn’t really make sense. You either made a decision to save your soul or you didn’t or God chooses.

God chooses of course

So that is what he’s saying?

Yes - as far as election is concerned

So, he was saying that. You said he wasn’t.

I’m confused

Election is a part of salvation. The poll states that since someone was elected there is no need for salvation. Therefore, the poll doesn’t illustrate a correct understanding of reformed theology.

Election?

God decided everything for us already, eliminating the need to be saved. No one was electing anything. That’s what my poll is saying.

Basically I’m saying that because God has already predetermined what’s going to happen to us, there’s no need to “save” anyone.

Which is what I understood that other user to be saying?

That is how I’ve understood it both in this poll and as prattled on elsewhere. It’s contradictory. In my opinion, it’s a way to justify both concepts when one doesn’t really know.

That’s what I mean. Servant is only saying that God is the only one who can save. That doesn’t eliminate our need for God to save us.

But if God has already predetermined what’s going to happen to us, we don’t have a “need to be saved”, plus, since we don’t have free will, we don’t have “a need to be saved”.

It doesn’t matter what we do, because God has already determined what we do and we can’t change that.

That’s what I’ve been attempting to explain. First, God chooses His children. This occurred before the foundation of the Earth. This is not when a person is saved. These are all the people who will be saved. A person is not saved until the Holy Spirit enters the heart of an individual. This changes the person’s heart, and the person is born again desiring the things of the Lord.

So we don’t even have to make an attempt to be saved because all the saved are already saved.

Well, I don’t know what you can do to be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 is pretty clear that there is nothing you can do.

But aren’t there other places in the Bible that says there is?

Like aren’t there verses that says repent, and those who believe in me shall have eternal life and all that fun stuff?

If we’re predetermined to go to heaven or hell, it doesn’t matter what we believe. And actually, what we believe is what God told us to believe.

Also then the whole concept of hell is messed up because God has already figured out who’s going there and we can’t do anything to stop that. So god being merciful is wrong too

Not in the slightest - repentance is the result of being born again just like good works.

God’s elect have faith. So yes - faith matters and what you believe matters. Rejecting the truth shows that a person’s heart has not been changed

Why does it matter if I repent? God has already decided if I’m going to hell or not.

God’s righteous judgement is not “messed up.” Romans 9:19-21 explains that the potter has the right to choose how He wishes to use vessels of clay.

Because repentance honors God - if someone doesn’t desire to glorify God, then that is not evidence of someone’s salvation.

But all of that has been predetermined.

Yes - but there is evidence of your salvation.

So I don’t have to do anything. Nothing I do can change the will of God. If he says I’m going to hell, that’s where I’m going regardless of any action I take up to and including repenting and accepting Jesus.

Same thing with heaven. If God says that’s where I’m going, I can sin all I want without asking for forgiveness.

It doesn’t work that way. You can’t have regeneration and not sanctification.

And if my calculations are correct, political, you believe you are one of the elect?

I have hope in Christ that I am. I believe I have true faith in Christ, and while I sin, I ask for forgiveness and try to live a life pleasing to Him.

But hope means nothing if you aren’t elect. What happens if you aren’t a one of the elect? Do you spend eternity in hell?

Hope is assurance of salvation

But yes - all who are not born again will not be saved

So again, it doesn’t matter what you do. You don’t know if you’re one of the elect. If you’re not one of the elect, you’re going to hell and being born again won’t stop that.

If you’re not one of God’s elect, you won’t be born again.

You are given assurance of God’s effectual call by the change in your desires.

But if you’re not one of the elect, no change in your desire is going to change that.

Also if you’re one of the elect, it doesn’t matter if you’re born again. You’re going to heaven anyway.

Being born again occurs because of God’s election. All of God’s elect will be born again.

But not all born again are gods elects

They most certainly are. They were born again because of God’s election.

So let me make sure I understand. God has already predetermined who’s going to heaven and who isn’t, and those people will be born again, which then cancels free will.

Is that somewhat correct?

Spot on

Correct wait pertains to eternal salvation in regards to the free will part

As it* not wait

So what happened before Jesus? Before anyone could be born again?

For that matter, why did God make Eve eat the apple?

The Holy Spirit has always regenerated people.

God didn’t make Eve eat the apple. He isn’t the author of sin

If there’s no free will, he did.

There isn’t free will in salvation. There is free will when choosing an action.

Isn’t the act of choosing salvation a choice? Or are you saying no one chooses salvation?

Are the Jews predestined to hell? All those who had no opportunity to know Jesus are just predestined to hell? Seems like a fruitless point of even bothering believing.

No one can choose salvation. How can a spiritually dead person accomplish such an extraordinary task?

No one is predestined to Hell. Hell is the result of God leaving people in their own naturally depraved state.

The whole “through God all things are possible” thing comes to mind with your question of how a spiritually dead person could do that.

And if no one is predestined to hell, and the ones who are going to heaven are already known, is there a chance those who aren’t predestined for anything to go to heaven ?

Yes - all things are possible through Christ. That’s why salvation only occurs by God’s mercy.

If God didn’t choose someone, the person will be judged for his/her sins.

So no free will. You can’t choose to love and follow God.

Sounds like a misinterpretation of scripture. With all due respect, it seems like a way to claim some sort of moral high ground over others without really saying it.

The chosen are that way out of an act of the will. The Holy Spirit leads people to repent and choose Christ by bringing them to a point where they are likely to make the good choice. That's why it's called a "decision for Christ." Predestination is a matter of three things, God's original creation, God's intervention through history, and God's already determined good end. Within that span people are free to opt for whatever they wish so long as it doesn't violate that last. God said, "See, I have set before you this day good and evil, life and death. Chose."

A couple of points to ponder. Why create a group of people that you know won’t attain salvation and then have to have a redo and send your son to save a new group of people? Does God make mistakes? I didn’t think so. None of it makes sense and confusing people with this Calvinist thinking (forgive me if I have the wrong denomination) is pretty unfair. And who is the metric of spiritual life or death?

Yeah I really do appreciate the discussion, but I’m more confused now than ever.

That’s ok though, I’m confused a lot.

If you would, what is your confusion?

It still sounds a lot like there is no free will and whatever I do I’ll either go to heaven or I wont, where as I was taught that if I accept jesus and ask forgiveness, I’m in.

I keep thinking of asking God, couldn't you do better? Couldn't you have found a way at the beginning where people had free will but people didn't have to go through such horrors before your perfect ending?

The answer keeps coming back, "You try."

Why would God say choose if there is no free will?
Why would God bother with creation if it was inhabited with meat robots?

I never once thought to question God. My questions are for people who interpret the bible differently from me with this whole no free will thing.

If there is no free will then there is no Justice.

The thought that God makes us do everything and yet judges makes of him a young tot with a hammer, setting little toys about and indiscriminately destroying this one or that.

And thank you for clarifying that for me. I lost that somewhere among all the posts.

Yup

Crayon, does the potter not have the freedom to choose which vessels of clay to use and which vessels to use for destruction as illustrated in Romans 9:19-21?

As for the posts below Crayon, I posted a comment in another thread explaining how I’m only speaking of salvation being predestined. Your actions are not forced or predestined by God. In other words, drinking water sometime today was not God programming you and forcing you to do so.

Which does not address the matter of justice.

It wasn’t intended to because I can’t remember everything addressed when I go to type. I don’t believe my interpretation of God’s justice is much different than many Southern Baptist.

We are born into a state only knowing evil. It’s only natural to sin. As a result of this sinful nature that causes us to sin, all that God does not place mercy on will be judged by their sins.

That brings up a whole bunch of other questions lol!

Sure - you can post them and I’ll try to answer sometime

That’s ok.

Good discussion though. Thanks for the info

Nope. Snow from the snowblower that blew back on me

Brrr 🥶

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?’” (Daniel 4:35)

And the first quote is actually Romans 9:19-22). My mistake.

We can’t resist his will if there’s no free will.

You can’t resist God’s will because everything that happens is God’s will. Every thought in your head, every breath, every action, every raindrop falling from the sky, every vote cast in elections, I could go on and and. Just think of planet earth as God’s playpen and humans (as well as every other creature) as His toys.

If God controlled everyone's will, no one would sin and everyone would go to heaven. Sin is rampant on Earth because we have free will. Freedom to choose right from wrong. Could you please explain how your Bible verse proves there is no such thing as free will

Oh I think I see where this is going. "Do as thou Wilt" right? I'm not messing with this thread

God doesn’t want everyone to go to Heaven dimwit. Get that through your skull. READ THE VERSES.
He creates certain people (most humans actually) for the express purpose of tormenting them eternally in hell to magnify His power and glory. They are called vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Called it 😝 good luck spreading that message, buddy. I hope someday you escape, and are able to find the true Lord Jesus Christ

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Yes He does kscott. I know you’re just mocking and scoffing but it is the truth.

“He [God] has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn–and I would heal them (Jesus quoting Isaiah 6:9-10, in John 12:40).

“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie” (2 Thess 2:11)

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another … Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done” (Rom 1:24, 28).

A point of deviation from Servant. He does get a lot of things right here. God doesn’t make anyone not believe. He is not the author of sin. We are born into a state of rebellion to God. People do not believe because of their own natural state that does not know righteousness. Those who are not His Elect God leaves in a state of rebellion.

they are likely to make the good choice. That's why it's called a "decision for Christ." Predestination is a matter of three things, God's original creation, God's intervention through history, and God's already determined good end. Within that span people are free to opt for whatever they wish so long as it doesn't violate that last. God said, "See, I have set before you this day good and evil, life and death. Chose."

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Huh? God is not responsible for the natural man’s sin. The only freedom the natural man has is the freedom to choice which sin to commit. This is not forced by God. As I have said, God does not predestine (force)people’s actions. He predestines our salvation, and He does give us the freedom to choose to glorify Him or not after regeneration.

“Us” being born again Christians. There seems to be quite the confusion in regards to y’all’s unreasonable expectation of unregenerate people to do something that glorifies God which is why I’m providing this clarification.

Sorry, can’t reveal my sources.

Or you can see above

Fair enough. It's cool you're at least asking critical questions and trying to work through all this, even though it seems like you're trying real hard not to believe in God.. take is easy pal

Me??

Yes you. I meant it as a compliment

Ah.

The question didn’t have anything to do with my beliefs in God. It has to do with the user saying there is no free will

My mistake. Seemed like it was about God