Show of HandsShow of Hands

voc February 3rd, 2019 5:33pm

According to a user, God has decided who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, basically eliminating the need to be “saved” contradicting everything you’ve read in the Bible. Any truth to that?

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ladyniner81 extremists are a cancer
02/05/19 8:02 am

What's the difference between

1. If you don't accept God as your Savior, you're going to hell. If you do, you're going to Heaven

2. God is looking down at you and you're a good person, you're going to Heaven, if you're a bad person, you're going to hell

clipk0 Trump won, get over it.
02/07/19 11:35 am

I mean you pretty clearly stated two totally different instances I don’t see a need to go into detail to tell you what’s different about 2 completely different statements

kadeo
02/05/19 12:15 am

God doesn't decide. YOU decide. YOU choose the behavior, YOU choose the consequence.

mark4
02/04/19 7:02 am

Yes and no. There is predestination insofar as a timeless and omnipotent God knew, knows, will know everything anyone did, does, will do. But much of that knowledge is based on seeing rather than causing, allowing the good and bad to happen in order that human lives have meaning.

Robert01 existentialist
02/04/19 6:32 am

If you believe in a omnipotent God this guy is correct.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
02/03/19 10:36 pm

There's a fine but bright line between predestination ("God chose who would be saved") and foreknowledge (God knows in advance who will ultimately accept Him, but leaves the choice to us). I believe the latter one to be true and Biblical.

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bartman71 USW
02/05/19 1:10 am

If this being knows in advance that one will never accept him, why make/let them even exist? Seems a little cruel and unusual, when said punishment is eternal.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
02/07/19 10:41 pm

He creates everyone with the free will to accept or reject Him. That gives each of us a chance to choose rightly.

bartman71 USW
02/07/19 10:49 pm

But he already knows the outcome, so he is knowingly sending people to their doom.

JamesAndersonMD La Jolla, CA
02/03/19 10:35 pm

No, I don’t believe in that... it’s a depressing thought. But who knows?

HBNY this space for rent
02/03/19 10:18 pm

Oh lawdy lawdy, some user is full of it.

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/03/19 6:31 pm

💠 voc asked:
02/03/2019
According to a user, God has decided who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, basically eliminating the need to be “saved” contradicting everything you’ve read in the Bible. Any truth to that?

..

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
02/03/19 6:35 pm

Voc, this belief is called predestination. Hubby and I don’t believe in predestination....that God DECIDED who would be saved and who wouldn’t, so there is no need for a salvation experience. We believe he FOREKNEW who would be saved.

In other words, he doesn’t make that decision for us, but knew from the beginning of time who would and who wouldn’t accept Christ. We also believe that, because God knows who and who will not accept Christ, that He is waiting on the last person that will ever accept Him to do so before His second coming.

..

bartman71 USW
02/05/19 1:12 am

See my comment to Tom above. This doesn't make sense to me.

Squidboy Snarkapottamus
02/03/19 4:05 pm

Cool....so I can do whatever I want and it doesn’t matter! Thanks God!

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voc Hey
02/03/19 4:07 pm

See below. I can’t figure out if it does or not.

Squidboy Snarkapottamus
02/03/19 4:10 pm

Meh....not even worth my time to speculate on imaginary bs.

DunkinFrunk Austin area, Texas
02/03/19 2:56 pm

Nope, god is imaginary

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Laserbeam Back soon
02/03/19 1:26 pm

This user is currently being ignored

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/03/19 2:13 pm

This user is currently being ignored

sjrez Cope Harder
02/03/19 4:02 pm

Do you have evidence Unicorns don’t exist?

voc Hey
02/03/19 4:06 pm

How about evidence that Uranus doesn’t exist! Or myanus for that matter!

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/03/19 4:26 pm

This user is currently being ignored

voc Hey
02/03/19 4:28 pm

Yeah, there’s been lots of things in Uranus. I forgot.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/03/19 4:33 pm

This user is currently being ignored

nicnerd
02/03/19 1:22 pm

If that is the most ridiculous thing that you can think of regarding Christianity that you can come up with, you should read more of the bible, the whole thing is ludicrous.

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ronderman North Carolina
02/03/19 12:24 pm

This may be referring to the theory of Predestination which is something the Presbyterians believe. I personally don’t believe it.

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MrsCrayonWax
02/03/19 3:37 pm

I agree with you.

suppressedID destiny is right now
02/03/19 12:22 pm

Makes as much sense as having a being who is all knowing and all powerful and yet feels the need to “test“ his greatest creation.

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TheMusicMan Solidarity Forever
02/03/19 1:16 pm

Or as much sense as being an all-knowing being that can't find the first two humans he just made that are hiding in his garden.

rons Thanks America
02/03/19 12:20 pm

I haven’t a clue.

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MannIsMe Did You Assume My Party
02/03/19 12:13 pm

Foreknowledge does not equate to foreordination

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mark4
02/04/19 7:05 am

Succinct.

DanteAlighieri
02/03/19 11:55 am

Not a fan of Calvinist theology

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political Georgia
02/03/19 12:12 pm

Well, the poll doesn’t describe Calvinism accurately in the first place

DanteAlighieri
02/03/19 12:15 pm

Wasn’t predestination a teaching of Calvin? Sorry if I’m mistaken, I’m not as well versed on the subject as I’d like to be

political Georgia
02/03/19 12:23 pm

Yes - it was, but predestination is a part of salvation not eliminating the necessity of salvation.

DanteAlighieri
02/03/19 12:28 pm

Okay, I still don’t agree with predestination, but that makes more sense

MrAmerica Adoring the Logos
02/03/19 1:52 pm

Predestination is a Catholic belief as well; it just isn’t dogmatically defined how predestination exactly “works”. Thomism and Molinism are the main two “modern” theological camps within the Catholic Church which deal with the subject of predestination.

HBNY this space for rent
02/03/19 10:24 pm

I think my denomination believes in predestination, but my denomination has also started to rift between the liberal churches in the east and the more conservative ones in the Midwest. (One example being that our synod has followed the church in marrying sane-sex couples, but the conservative synods in the Midwest are resisting any change.)

Nevertheless, my pastor has never ever mentioned predestination when I converted from Catholicism to the (Dutch) Reformed Church in America.

And I do not believe in predestination. That’s a bunch of BS.
.

HBNY this space for rent
02/03/19 10:25 pm

* same not sane. LOL

political Georgia
02/03/19 11:48 am

No - that’s not what servant was saying at all.

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political Georgia
02/03/19 11:55 am

God decided before the foundation of the world who will be eternally saved (Ephesians 1:4). There is more to salvation than election as alluded to in this poll. As a result of election, Jesus died on the cross for the Elect’s sins. The Holy Spirit Within time moves into God’s children’s hearts forming new desires in that individual.

MrsCrayonWax
02/03/19 12:53 pm

Doesn’t really make sense. You either made a decision to save your soul or you didn’t or God chooses.

voc Hey
02/03/19 1:23 pm

So that is what he’s saying?

political Georgia
02/03/19 1:36 pm

Yes - as far as election is concerned

voc Hey
02/03/19 1:37 pm

So, he was saying that. You said he wasn’t.

I’m confused

political Georgia
02/03/19 1:43 pm

Election is a part of salvation. The poll states that since someone was elected there is no need for salvation. Therefore, the poll doesn’t illustrate a correct understanding of reformed theology.

voc Hey
02/03/19 1:47 pm

Election?

God decided everything for us already, eliminating the need to be saved. No one was electing anything. That’s what my poll is saying.

Basically I’m saying that because God has already predetermined what’s going to happen to us, there’s no need to “save” anyone.

voc Hey
02/03/19 1:48 pm

Which is what I understood that other user to be saying?

MrsCrayonWax
02/03/19 2:02 pm

That is how I’ve understood it both in this poll and as prattled on elsewhere. It’s contradictory. In my opinion, it’s a way to justify both concepts when one doesn’t really know.

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:02 pm

That’s what I mean. Servant is only saying that God is the only one who can save. That doesn’t eliminate our need for God to save us.

voc Hey
02/03/19 2:07 pm

But if God has already predetermined what’s going to happen to us, we don’t have a “need to be saved”, plus, since we don’t have free will, we don’t have “a need to be saved”.

It doesn’t matter what we do, because God has already determined what we do and we can’t change that.

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:10 pm

That’s what I’ve been attempting to explain. First, God chooses His children. This occurred before the foundation of the Earth. This is not when a person is saved. These are all the people who will be saved. A person is not saved until the Holy Spirit enters the heart of an individual. This changes the person’s heart, and the person is born again desiring the things of the Lord.

voc Hey
02/03/19 2:15 pm

So we don’t even have to make an attempt to be saved because all the saved are already saved.

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:22 pm

Well, I don’t know what you can do to be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 is pretty clear that there is nothing you can do.

voc Hey
02/03/19 2:27 pm

But aren’t there other places in the Bible that says there is?

Like aren’t there verses that says repent, and those who believe in me shall have eternal life and all that fun stuff?

If we’re predetermined to go to heaven or hell, it doesn’t matter what we believe. And actually, what we believe is what God told us to believe.

voc Hey
02/03/19 2:28 pm

Also then the whole concept of hell is messed up because God has already figured out who’s going there and we can’t do anything to stop that. So god being merciful is wrong too

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:30 pm

Not in the slightest - repentance is the result of being born again just like good works.

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:31 pm

God’s elect have faith. So yes - faith matters and what you believe matters. Rejecting the truth shows that a person’s heart has not been changed

voc Hey
02/03/19 2:31 pm

Why does it matter if I repent? God has already decided if I’m going to hell or not.

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:32 pm

God’s righteous judgement is not “messed up.” Romans 9:19-21 explains that the potter has the right to choose how He wishes to use vessels of clay.

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:33 pm

Because repentance honors God - if someone doesn’t desire to glorify God, then that is not evidence of someone’s salvation.

voc Hey
02/03/19 2:35 pm

But all of that has been predetermined.

political Georgia
02/03/19 2:43 pm

Yes - but there is evidence of your salvation.

voc Hey
02/03/19 2:55 pm

So I don’t have to do anything. Nothing I do can change the will of God. If he says I’m going to hell, that’s where I’m going regardless of any action I take up to and including repenting and accepting Jesus.

Same thing with heaven. If God says that’s where I’m going, I can sin all I want without asking for forgiveness.

political Georgia
02/03/19 3:10 pm

It doesn’t work that way. You can’t have regeneration and not sanctification.

MrsCrayonWax
02/03/19 3:32 pm

And if my calculations are correct, political, you believe you are one of the elect?

political Georgia
02/03/19 3:34 pm

I have hope in Christ that I am. I believe I have true faith in Christ, and while I sin, I ask for forgiveness and try to live a life pleasing to Him.

MrsCrayonWax
02/03/19 3:36 pm

But hope means nothing if you aren’t elect. What happens if you aren’t a one of the elect? Do you spend eternity in hell?

political Georgia
02/03/19 3:36 pm

Hope is assurance of salvation

political Georgia
02/03/19 3:37 pm

But yes - all who are not born again will not be saved

voc Hey
02/03/19 3:57 pm

So again, it doesn’t matter what you do. You don’t know if you’re one of the elect. If you’re not one of the elect, you’re going to hell and being born again won’t stop that.

political Georgia
02/03/19 3:59 pm

If you’re not one of God’s elect, you won’t be born again.

political Georgia
02/03/19 4:00 pm

You are given assurance of God’s effectual call by the change in your desires.

voc Hey
02/03/19 4:01 pm

But if you’re not one of the elect, no change in your desire is going to change that.

voc Hey
02/03/19 4:03 pm

Also if you’re one of the elect, it doesn’t matter if you’re born again. You’re going to heaven anyway.

political Georgia
02/03/19 4:12 pm

Being born again occurs because of God’s election. All of God’s elect will be born again.

voc Hey
02/03/19 4:16 pm

But not all born again are gods elects

political Georgia
02/03/19 4:20 pm

They most certainly are. They were born again because of God’s election.

voc Hey
02/03/19 4:37 pm

So let me make sure I understand. God has already predetermined who’s going to heaven and who isn’t, and those people will be born again, which then cancels free will.

Is that somewhat correct?

political Georgia
02/03/19 5:48 pm

Correct wait pertains to eternal salvation in regards to the free will part

voc Hey
02/03/19 5:54 pm

So what happened before Jesus? Before anyone could be born again?

For that matter, why did God make Eve eat the apple?

political Georgia
02/03/19 6:00 pm

The Holy Spirit has always regenerated people.

political Georgia
02/03/19 6:00 pm

God didn’t make Eve eat the apple. He isn’t the author of sin

voc Hey
02/03/19 6:05 pm

If there’s no free will, he did.

political Georgia
02/04/19 7:10 am

There isn’t free will in salvation. There is free will when choosing an action.

voc Hey
02/04/19 7:12 am

Isn’t the act of choosing salvation a choice? Or are you saying no one chooses salvation?

MrsCrayonWax
02/04/19 7:15 am

Are the Jews predestined to hell? All those who had no opportunity to know Jesus are just predestined to hell? Seems like a fruitless point of even bothering believing.

political Georgia
02/04/19 7:15 am

No one can choose salvation. How can a spiritually dead person accomplish such an extraordinary task?

political Georgia
02/04/19 7:16 am

No one is predestined to Hell. Hell is the result of God leaving people in their own naturally depraved state.

voc Hey
02/04/19 7:19 am

The whole “through God all things are possible” thing comes to mind with your question of how a spiritually dead person could do that.

voc Hey
02/04/19 7:21 am

And if no one is predestined to hell, and the ones who are going to heaven are already known, is there a chance those who aren’t predestined for anything to go to heaven ?

political Georgia
02/04/19 7:28 am

Yes - all things are possible through Christ. That’s why salvation only occurs by God’s mercy.

If God didn’t choose someone, the person will be judged for his/her sins.

voc Hey
02/04/19 7:35 am

So no free will. You can’t choose to love and follow God.

MrsCrayonWax
02/04/19 7:36 am

Sounds like a misinterpretation of scripture. With all due respect, it seems like a way to claim some sort of moral high ground over others without really saying it.

mark4
02/04/19 7:44 am

The chosen are that way out of an act of the will. The Holy Spirit leads people to repent and choose Christ by bringing them to a point where they are likely to make the good choice. That's why it's called a "decision for Christ." Predestination is a matter of three things, God's original creation, God's intervention through history, and God's already determined good end. Within that span people are free to opt for whatever they wish so long as it doesn't violate that last. God said, "See, I have set before you this day good and evil, life and death. Chose."

MrsCrayonWax
02/04/19 7:44 am

A couple of points to ponder. Why create a group of people that you know won’t attain salvation and then have to have a redo and send your son to save a new group of people? Does God make mistakes? I didn’t think so. None of it makes sense and confusing people with this Calvinist thinking (forgive me if I have the wrong denomination) is pretty unfair. And who is the metric of spiritual life or death?

voc Hey
02/04/19 7:51 am

Yeah I really do appreciate the discussion, but I’m more confused now than ever.

That’s ok though, I’m confused a lot.

mark4
02/04/19 7:57 am

If you would, what is your confusion?

voc Hey
02/04/19 7:59 am

It still sounds a lot like there is no free will and whatever I do I’ll either go to heaven or I wont, where as I was taught that if I accept jesus and ask forgiveness, I’m in.

mark4
02/04/19 8:02 am

I keep thinking of asking God, couldn't you do better? Couldn't you have found a way at the beginning where people had free will but people didn't have to go through such horrors before your perfect ending?

The answer keeps coming back, "You try."

mark4
02/04/19 8:04 am

Why would God say choose if there is no free will?
Why would God bother with creation if it was inhabited with meat robots?

voc Hey
02/04/19 8:05 am

I never once thought to question God. My questions are for people who interpret the bible differently from me with this whole no free will thing.

mark4
02/04/19 8:07 am

If there is no free will then there is no Justice.

The thought that God makes us do everything and yet judges makes of him a young tot with a hammer, setting little toys about and indiscriminately destroying this one or that.

mark4
02/04/19 8:11 am

And thank you for clarifying that for me. I lost that somewhere among all the posts.

voc Hey
02/04/19 8:13 am

Yup

political Georgia
02/04/19 8:57 am

Crayon, does the potter not have the freedom to choose which vessels of clay to use and which vessels to use for destruction as illustrated in Romans 9:19-21?

As for the posts below Crayon, I posted a comment in another thread explaining how I’m only speaking of salvation being predestined. Your actions are not forced or predestined by God. In other words, drinking water sometime today was not God programming you and forcing you to do so.

mark4
02/04/19 9:00 am

Which does not address the matter of justice.

political Georgia
02/04/19 9:32 am

It wasn’t intended to because I can’t remember everything addressed when I go to type. I don’t believe my interpretation of God’s justice is much different than many Southern Baptist.

We are born into a state only knowing evil. It’s only natural to sin. As a result of this sinful nature that causes us to sin, all that God does not place mercy on will be judged by their sins.

voc Hey
02/04/19 10:13 am

That brings up a whole bunch of other questions lol!

political Georgia
02/04/19 10:17 am

Sure - you can post them and I’ll try to answer sometime

voc Hey
02/04/19 10:19 am

That’s ok.

Good discussion though. Thanks for the info

snagglepuss Story Time
02/03/19 11:26 am

Nope, I trust my Bible.

Hey, you have snow in your beard! Did you get hit with a snowball?

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voc Hey
02/03/19 3:59 pm

Nope. Snow from the snowblower that blew back on me

Kay41 the Midwest
02/03/19 11:01 am

Nope. Not believing that.

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ServantOfGod Obey God
02/03/19 10:43 am

You haven’t read the Bible if you believe in the fantasy known as “free will”.

“You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” (Romans 9:22-23)

“Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; (Isaiah 46:10)

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ServantOfGod Obey God
02/03/19 10:44 am

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?’” (Daniel 4:35)

ServantOfGod Obey God
02/03/19 10:45 am

And the first quote is actually Romans 9:19-22). My mistake.

voc Hey
02/03/19 10:45 am

We can’t resist his will if there’s no free will.

ServantOfGod Obey God
02/03/19 10:48 am

You can’t resist God’s will because everything that happens is God’s will. Every thought in your head, every breath, every action, every raindrop falling from the sky, every vote cast in elections, I could go on and and. Just think of planet earth as God’s playpen and humans (as well as every other creature) as His toys.

Tommy1776 Midwest
02/03/19 10:51 am

If God controlled everyone's will, no one would sin and everyone would go to heaven. Sin is rampant on Earth because we have free will. Freedom to choose right from wrong. Could you please explain how your Bible verse proves there is no such thing as free will

Tommy1776 Midwest
02/03/19 10:54 am

Oh I think I see where this is going. "Do as thou Wilt" right? I'm not messing with this thread

ServantOfGod Obey God
02/03/19 10:57 am

God doesn’t want everyone to go to Heaven dimwit. Get that through your skull. READ THE VERSES.
He creates certain people (most humans actually) for the express purpose of tormenting them eternally in hell to magnify His power and glory. They are called vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Tommy1776 Midwest
02/03/19 11:01 am

Called it 😝 good luck spreading that message, buddy. I hope someday you escape, and are able to find the true Lord Jesus Christ

kscott516 Revelation 5 6
02/03/19 11:02 am

This user is currently being ignored

ServantOfGod Obey God
02/03/19 11:09 am

Yes He does kscott. I know you’re just mocking and scoffing but it is the truth.

“He [God] has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn–and I would heal them (Jesus quoting Isaiah 6:9-10, in John 12:40).

“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie” (2 Thess 2:11)

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another … Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done” (Rom 1:24, 28).

political Georgia
02/03/19 11:50 am

A point of deviation from Servant. He does get a lot of things right here. God doesn’t make anyone not believe. He is not the author of sin. We are born into a state of rebellion to God. People do not believe because of their own natural state that does not know righteousness. Those who are not His Elect God leaves in a state of rebellion.

mark4
02/04/19 7:48 am

they are likely to make the good choice. That's why it's called a "decision for Christ." Predestination is a matter of three things, God's original creation, God's intervention through history, and God's already determined good end. Within that span people are free to opt for whatever they wish so long as it doesn't violate that last. God said, "See, I have set before you this day good and evil, life and death. Chose."

kscott516 Revelation 5 6
02/04/19 8:08 am

This user is currently being ignored

political Georgia
02/04/19 8:13 am

Huh? God is not responsible for the natural man’s sin. The only freedom the natural man has is the freedom to choice which sin to commit. This is not forced by God. As I have said, God does not predestine (force)people’s actions. He predestines our salvation, and He does give us the freedom to choose to glorify Him or not after regeneration.

political Georgia
02/04/19 8:15 am

“Us” being born again Christians. There seems to be quite the confusion in regards to y’all’s unreasonable expectation of unregenerate people to do something that glorifies God which is why I’m providing this clarification.

Tommy1776 Midwest
02/03/19 10:38 am

That is far from the truth, and frankly does not make any sense. I wonder who told you that?

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voc Hey
02/03/19 10:39 am

Sorry, can’t reveal my sources.

voc Hey
02/03/19 10:44 am

Or you can see above

Tommy1776 Midwest
02/03/19 10:45 am

Fair enough. It's cool you're at least asking critical questions and trying to work through all this, even though it seems like you're trying real hard not to believe in God.. take is easy pal

Tommy1776 Midwest
02/03/19 4:57 pm

Yes you. I meant it as a compliment

voc Hey
02/03/19 5:07 pm

Ah.

The question didn’t have anything to do with my beliefs in God. It has to do with the user saying there is no free will

Tommy1776 Midwest
02/03/19 6:57 pm

My mistake. Seemed like it was about God