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Nemacyst January 31st, 2019 5:28pm

If Gender is a social construct, male and female don't actually exist, so makes can't systemically oppress females, therefore the patriarchy cannot exist.

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phalnx Ohio
01/31/19 6:23 pm

Damned if I know. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of @DoctorWasdarb 's field study...that should shed much light on the matter.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
01/31/19 6:41 pm

I still have Nemy ignored, and I ain't about to change that. What did you want to know?

phalnx Ohio
01/31/19 6:44 pm

If gender is a social construct or if it's biological...and what effects these things have on 'male privilege'...it's actually quite an intriguing line of inquiry.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
01/31/19 8:03 pm

Sex refers to your karyotype, primary and secondary sex characteristics, things like this.

The fact that people use gender and sex interchangeably should be a key into how we understand gender, but that does not mean the two are synonymous. In fact, or society assigns gender according to sex. So if society perceives someone as being female, it assigns womanhood and femininity upon the person, and the same for people perceived as male. (As it pertains to trans people, this is where passing comes into play. If a trans woman passes as a cis woman, then society will treat that woman as any other woman. If society recognizes her transness, then her relationship to society is more ambiguous. That's a different question, better explored elsewhere.)

We still have the question of what gender is. Most sociologists would conclude that gender refers to the social implications of being male or female.

Continued.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
01/31/19 8:08 pm

The question of whether gender is a social construct or not comes down to whether the social roles/categories of manhood and womanhood exist purely as social impositions upon people who, in the abstract, would not be subject to such roles, or whether the roles are not imposed by a greater social force, but are simple extension of the biological differences.

The argument in favor of this latter position is forced to consider psychological differences between men and women as secondary sex characteristics, determined not by the environment in which the brain and person develop, but by the genetics/chromosomes of the person, that these psychological differences lead to the different social roles, rather than the other way around.

The development of the personality and of personhood is certainly complex, but modern psychology absolutely rejects the notion that karyotype determines personality to any meaningful extent.

Continued.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
01/31/19 8:13 pm

There are a number of complex factors which determine personality, interests, etc., but "women just like to be mothers," while technically often true, does not explain whether this is a biological inevitability, or whether it is a socially constructed and socially determined phenomenon. This is a preferable response over trying to prove that many women don't like to be mothers, as some feminists will correctly point out, because it allows the anti-feminists to set the terms of the debate.

I don't know how much more I need to explain. Social roles (and indeed the categories themselves) of manhood and womanhood are not mere extensions of the psychological differences between males and females, but imposed upon them by social forces. Indeed, psychological differences between men and women certainly do appear, considering the fact that environment influences psychology, but to consider these differences as strictly karyotypical is nonsensical and unscientific.

Continued.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
01/31/19 8:18 pm

Just lastly, I'd like to make a brief point about where these social roles come from. Indeed, I believe the social categories and social roles are inextricably linked. Masculinity and manhood are synonymous, and to reject given definitions of masculinity is to reject manhood, as to be a man is not to have a certain body type, but to fulfill a certain social role. A failure to do so is to not be a man, hence expressions like, "man up," or, "you throw like a girl," or, "you're a sissy.

Where do these roles come from? Like any good Marxist, they are extensions of labor, in this case, domestic/reproductive labor, and the male exploitation of female reproductive labor. Gender can be treated essentially like class, in this sense. To abolish gender is not to make people stop identifying with their gender or to make everyone have the same social role (femulinity, or something), but to abolish the exploitation of female reproductive labor and the structures which perpetuate it.

phalnx Ohio
01/31/19 8:33 pm

A very nuanced answer, Doc! I agree with most of what you said, except that I don't think Marxist philosophy lends itself to male/female hierarchical relationships...at least, not in this country. Sure, there's still inequality in the workplace, but as far as manhood and womanhood go, that's always been very local and personal.

I wish I had time to do your response justice, Doc...I'll write more when I can.

phalnx Ohio
02/01/19 2:04 am

Alright, if I'm reading you correctly, you agree that both biology and environment play a part in the sexual roles that we assume, but whereas you give the social construct portion primacy, I think biology plays the dominant role (and yes, environment does influence biology...that is the reason for male patriarchy in the first place...it's a holdover from those times when physical strength largely determined social status in most Western cultures).

Crap. More later.

phalnx Ohio
02/01/19 5:25 am

Certain stuff is ingrained...perhaps as a result of inherited memories/instincts, but nonetheless, many if not most people would, if left to their own devices, assume their traditional roles themselves, without needing outside encouragement or prompting. My parents were hippies, but I was always interested in war, playing soldier (G.I. Joe, Star Wars, etc.), with nary an interest in My Little Pony, or all that other girly stuff that my sister gravitated towards. None of this came from my parents, and I was too young for peer pressure...I simply liked guy stuff, and my sister liked girl stuff.

Are there people of both sexes who buck the trends...absolutely, but the exceptions prove the rule. Otherwise, companies that target specific genders would go bankrupt from all the uncertainty. The stuff that really sells the best is that which appeals to both genders, and it's more uncommon than you'd think. Pac-Man was huge because it brought women into gaming, for instance.

phalnx Ohio
02/01/19 5:41 am

The Nintendo Wii had similar success because its appeal crossed not only gender but age lines. The presence of these outliers only reaffirms the fact that gender is more innate than a social construct, though again I don't disagree with you that society plays a reinforcing role, whether explicitly or implicitly.

I'm very curious about where you see yourself in this dynamic. Have you always felt like you identify more with girl stuff than guy stuff (or is that even true?), and do you see yourself as a girly girl, a manly girl, both, or neither? Is this all simply not very important to you, given your deep commitment to economic activism and your natural inclusivity regarding other people? It all seems like pretty heavy shit from where I'm sitting!

I'm just very curious...I mean no offense, and I have no agenda other than my fascination with your identity change, which is in some ways very profound and in other ways profoundly unimportant.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/01/19 7:05 am

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phalnx Ohio
01/31/19 6:11 pm

You misspelled 'muh' and 'feelins'.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
01/31/19 5:41 pm

True. These idiots can't have it both ways!

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voc I am...what I am
01/31/19 12:01 pm

There is no spoon

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CoffeeNow Fiery but peaceful rioter
01/31/19 12:17 pm

The spoon is the most feminine utensil

Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 11:27 am

Biological sex doesn't equal gender.

Biological sex is based on biology. Genitals and chromosomes.

Gender is a social construct.
How are you are socially Feud and how you present yourself to society.

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 11:36 am

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Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 12:09 pm

No.

Here maybe I should straighten this out for you.
Here is a off topic question that may help you.

Do laws exist?

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 1:37 pm

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Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 2:07 pm

What? Science isn't wrong nor did I say that it was.

Wtf dude?

Biological sex is a term with in biology .

Gendar is a term within socialology .

Both are scientific terms, just to separate bodys of science.

Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 2:07 pm

Law is also a social construct btw.

Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 2:40 pm

The fuck said anything about gender fluidity?

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 2:41 pm

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 3:38 pm

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Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 3:43 pm

You do realize science is always changing right?

Yes law is made by lawmakers it does not change the fact that it is a social construct.
A social construct is by definition;
an idea that has been created and accepted by the people in a society.
Laws are created by people and accepted by people laws are social constructs.
Sociology is always evolving and gender is a term within sociology.

As for the mental illness part as you pointed out was a conversation about pedophilia and how it isn't against the law and it should be normalized. For whatever reason Christian conservatives equate pedophilia to molestation when one is a mental illness and the other is a unlawful Act. By my own actions of normalizing pedophilia I am merely trying to allow people to realize that pedophilia & molestation are not one in the same.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 4:22 pm

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Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 4:24 pm

Not on the left mate.

Demonizing a pedo is the equivalent of demonizing a schizophrenic.

I know your smarter then that.

Robert01 existentialist
01/31/19 4:32 pm

Biological sex is not just determined by chromosomes but also generals.

Take for instance klinfelters?

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 8:28 pm

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Robert01 existentialist
02/01/19 5:28 am

Right but we don't demonize those that have skipped it ready as you do with pedophilia.

Schizophrenia has already been normalized. The general population already knows that this is a mental illness...

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/01/19 7:05 am

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Robert01 existentialist
02/01/19 7:31 am

You keep associating the mental illness with the behavior that is what I'm trying to correct.

The mental illness does not inherently mean that the behavior is present.
This goes for pedophilia and schizophrenia.

Robert01 existentialist
02/01/19 8:15 am

Is existentialism completely lost on you?

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/01/19 10:09 am

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Robert01 existentialist
02/01/19 10:30 am

No, I'm saying it's a mental illness. Punish them molestation, dont punish them because of their illness.

Can you not see - that you are condemning their thought? Inappropriately touch children is disgusting, thinking about is disgusting. Denozising someone for 'thought crimes' is equally disgusting.

Here in America we punish actions not thought.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/01/19 12:13 pm

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Robert01 existentialist
02/01/19 1:07 pm

And for the record no I wouldn't have somebody with a mental illness watching my daughter.

For whatever reason you think normalizing pedophilia means putting molesters near children... smh

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
02/01/19 2:40 pm

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 10:46 am

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PyroSadist like my comments follow
01/31/19 10:50 am

Does that mean you have risen from the dead like a zombie or like Jesus.

Always thought it was funny that if Jesus rose from the dead would that not actually make him a zombie

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 10:53 am

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thatguy2 I am Antifa
01/31/19 11:23 am

We expect you to be in and out of prison. No surprise.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
01/31/19 11:36 am

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