Show of Hands

Ignorance is bliss.

Amen!

Yes, of course. Science proves that the baby is a live human being at conception, when DNA is determined, the genetic blueprint is there, the sex is determined, the blood type is determined, & the unique set of fingerprints is there.

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Yeah I was going to say something to that effect that you should have better.

Sorry! I posted the wrong question for this poll. Here is the correct question....that I answered! Lol I HATE that SoH won’t FIX this!

💠 ArrowFodder asked:
01/31/2019
At 6 weeks, a baby has a heart beat while he/she is still in his/her mother’s womb. While a baby cannot survive outside the womb at 6 weeks, he/she shows that he/she is alive because of the clearly discernible heartbeat.
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Fake news.

Seriously,

"When we talk about third-trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of — obviously — the mother, with the consent of the physicians — more than one physician, by the way. And it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable"..."If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen, the infant would be delivered," the governor added. "The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians & mother."- Virginia Governor Ralph Northam

In other words, DO NOT resuscitate the baby if it’s not wanted....KILL it!

And NY just passed a law that says that it doesn’t even have to be a doctor that murders the baby...it can be a nurse or nurse practitioner, for example. So much for SAFE procedures for women....you don’t even have to have a doctor any more....back to the days y’all complain about barbarism!

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The circumstance that the governor is talking about is an edge case scenario.
Let me make this very clear I do not support the bill in question however the GOP is producing fake news on this topic the bill does not suggest that it would allow infants to be killed after birth it allows abortions to take place all the way up until the day of birth.

lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?191+ful+HB2491

What difference does it make if it’s one day before or on the day of birth? It’s still MURDERING a baby! And riiiiiight.......we believed them when they said that abortion was supposed to be safe, and RARE, also. We won’t make that mistake again!

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No murder is take a life illegal.

Its murder after the birth not before.

The difference is quite striking and the fact that you support the fake narrative that this bill proposes infanticide shocks me to the core. I will remember this next time the Democratic party produces a bill or critiques a GOP bill with a fake narrative. You are always up in arms about those what difference is it or that this one is coming from our. True tribalism at its finest.

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Agreed? Too bad it looks like both the governor and you haven't actually read the law proposed. I cited it up above read it.

Go read the goddamn post law you won't like it but it's not the narrative that's spreading.

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Just because the law says it’s not murder doesn’t mean it’s not murder. God’s law says that killing a person is MURDER.

And if the baby has already been born.....and they’re then deciding....it IS murder, even by our laws.

And you’re right in using GD, but not toward us. You should be using it toward this governor and anyone else that supports this law, because God WILL damn those who do these procedures....they WILL have to face Him one day and give account for all the innocent blood they’ve shed!

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@4jc where in the Bible does it say not to kill?

Last time I checked the commandant was Thou shalt not murder not Thou shalt not kill.

Even in a biblical sense murder does not mean simply taking another life.

That’s GREAT, kscott! Thanks!

Robert, where in the WORLD did you get that murder doesn’t mean killing someone, especially the most innocent. Do you want to know what God thinks about babies in the womb? Here is its, in Psalm 139:13-16:

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

MORE

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2) And the New Testament tells us that Jesus said to let the little ones come to him...they were NOT a bother as the disciples had assumed they would be to Jesus. He also said if ANYONE causes a little one to even stumble, that it will be better for him if a millstone were cast around his neck and he be thrown into the sea!

There are going to be DIRE consequences for those that murder little babies....they will be cast into the lake of fire to burn forever.

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FYI, the word murder in Exodus, where it lists the 10 commandments is ratsach. Here are two page about what this means:

www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/ratsach.html

www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H7523/ratsach.htm

Notice that it includes the words KILL, ASSASSINATE, PREMEDITATED, and DASH TO PIECES. If that’s not THE definition of abortion, I don’t know what IS!

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Are these definitions sourced at all in the bible or am I suppose to take these as someone's opinion or interpretation?

They are the translations from the original Hebrew.

Fair.

By Hebrew scholars. Hubby has studied Hebrew, and he has books call concordances that list all the words in the Bible, with their original Hebrew or Greek words, and the English words that those Hebrew or Greek words translate to.

These pages are from those types of sources.

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That’s how I knew what word to look up online, to copy/paste it to you. I looked up the word kill in the concordance, which gave me all the times that the word kill is mentioned in the Bible, broken down by which word is used for it, and the Scripture references. Then I was able to just type in the Hebrew word and give you those pages.

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It's on my list- to learn the holy language.

Did you know that it's only been quite
recently ( time relative to the Bible) that in Christian theology suicide is immoral? Random sorry just found that odd.

Well, it’s actually 3 languages....Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.

They ARE difficult. Hubby had flash cards that helped him with it! Lol He took 3 years of German in high school because so much of the early Christian works were written in German, & 2 years of Spanish, and Hebrew, & Greek in college & seminary.

Please clarify what you’re saying about suicide. Are you saying it wasn’t a sin during Old Testament times? Or that it wasn’t a sin even under Christianity until recently?

I find that hard to believe since we are ALL made in God’s image....and that’s the number one reason the Bible gives for us not killing others....and that includes ourselves.

I, personally, don’t believe it’s the unpardonable sin as some Christians do, though. There are some Christians that will tell you that you don’t go to Heaven if you commit suicide. I believe that the unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...basically turning your back on God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit...denouncing them.

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Its wasnt a sin tell the 5th century AD.

Or as many have told me, 'it's always been a sin, the church just didn't recognize it tell the 5th century.'


In the fifth century, St. Augustine wrote the book The City of God, in it making Christianity's first overall condemnation of suicide. 

I looked that up and found that his book was the first OVERALL CONDEMNATION of suicide. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the disciples and those in their time didn’t see it that way. I’ll talk to hubby about this when he gets home and see if he has anything to add.

I can’t read all of this article, because the rest of it is behind a paywall, but I agree with all of this that I can read:

www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/july10/30.61.html

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Before the condemnation was published it was tradition for priests to commit suicide. For priests to be allowing themselves to commit suicide seems to me that it was a little bit more than this just being the first condemnation.

I’ve never heard of that, but it’s not surprising given the fact that they can’t marry! LOL But there was some time in there, in church history, between the disciples and the Catholic church was formed, and that’s the time I was talking about.

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I'm sure I could just Google this but as reliable sources go I would trust you and hubby more than a random Source online.

What century was the Christian Church founded?

Thanks! I appreciate that! I’ll talk to hubby when he gets home later (if he’s up to it) and find out these answers for you.

He might not be up to it tonight, though, as he was at the hospital until almost 3 AM with a church member they thought was dying, and then back at the hospital for her and another member that had surgery today, besides his bus route. Thankfully, they were at the same hospital, instead of two different ones, 30 miles apart!

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Oh, and he was back at the hospital after his afternoon route as well. So, since 3 AM, he’s been to the hospital 3 times today! Lol And then he went to the drug store and is now at WM picking up a few items, so he’s still not home yet.

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By all means take your time.
I might be disrespectful at time about christianity- but those who practice true faith and in your hubby's case- preach faith, have my respect.

Thanks! I was wondering! LOL Our convo started out kind of antagonistic and then took a turn, leaving me scratching my head!

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The point of the poll is to tease out the definitions used by all involved . The question put to you . What would scientists have to find on mars in order to say they found life ?

And if your answer is similar to what you have already said, you have made the pro life argument already . What exists already in the early form of development is human life and therefore should be protected .

So a baby is as inconvenient as bacteria now?

SnotBubble. Congratulations on demonstrating what a logical fallacy looks like ! You don’t often see them in the wild, but when you do it’s pretty cool. The conditional : If A then B does ,not imply the similar conditional if Not A then Not B. The presence of a heartbeat indicates life but it’s absence does not indicate the absence of life . Also, congratulations on hinting at the additional pro life argument that the living organism the fetus is also alive prior to the heartbeat , since it is a multicellular organism like a bacteria . If scientist found either one of those on Mars the headlines would declare “WE FOUND LIFE!”

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It was your question that implied a baby shows that it is alive because of a heartbeat....

But I agree with you. Life begins before a baby is conceived. An egg is alive a sperm is alive and both contain human DNA. And the vast majority of human eggs and sperm go unused and die. No one seems to mind that...

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Ah, so it takes 23 pairs of chromosomes to give the fetus human rights?

About about people with less chromosomes? Down Syndrome or Turner syndrome people often have missing chromosomes. Do they still have human rights?

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Snot and KScott thanks for contributing to the conversation . I’m starting to see a pattern which I’ve never seen before , mostly because I’ve never discussed this topic before at length . All of these discussions seem to boil down to which definitions people are willing to commit to which is basically a decision about what attributes are important for determining a line of demarcation . Important attributes are signs of life, viability , consciousness , independence, Human DNA etc . When it comes to Human personhood I think the only logically consistent definition that holds up under scrutiny is that human personhood begins when a human female egg is fertilized by a human male sperm. Only then does one kind of life turn into a new kind of life , which is a human life. It is an unambiguous biological starting point that I believe holds up under all skeptical attacks .