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TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
06/11/18 10:25 am

Yes. God existed long before Lucifer sinned.

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shygal47 Florida east coast
06/11/18 9:15 am

How would one know what evil is if there is only good?
Yin and Yang.

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/11/18 8:36 am

I don't see how it could. Nothing can exist without its opposite. If hot doesn't exist, then you can't experience cold either, it just is. It's simple dialectics. Does no one read Lenin anymore?

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Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 9:00 am

You can most certainly still experience cold if hot didn’t exist. You just wouldn’t understand it as “cold.”

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/11/18 9:05 am

It's not just the word which would have no meaning. The very notion of coldness could not exist without its opposite.

If cold could exist without hot, define for me what cold means without resorting to a comparison.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 9:13 am

It’s a sensation. The way we would define it is have you experience that particular sensation, and then label that sensation “cold.”

If that were the only sensation that existed, then that would just mean we would have no reason to put a label on it.

HammeringMan Gods Away On Business
06/11/18 9:14 am

Different dies not need to be opposite.
I can experience red, I do not know the opposite of red.
My dogs and my kids can experience love, kindness, security, and oatmeal without knowing the opposite.

However my kids think Cap'n Crunch is the opposite of oatmeal!

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/11/18 9:17 am

Talren, can you name a sensation (or emotion or any other adjective) for which their is no opposite?

Hammering, one could say that the opposite of red is not-red. (Although it's perhaps a bad example since color is a spectrum and subjective.) Or rather, think of Schrodinger's Cat, existence vs non-existence.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 9:29 am

Sure.

Physical pain. Fear. Migraines. The way any particular texture feels to touch. I could go on.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/11/18 9:30 am

They all have opposites. Physical pain is in contrast with when we're no in pain, same with fear and migraines. Sometimes I'm afraid, sometimes I'm not.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 9:35 am

So the absence of a sensation is the same thing as the opposite of a sensation? That’s certainly not a definition of “opposite” I’ve ever heard before. Is hate the opposite of love, or is merely not experiencing love the opposite of love? Is hot the opposite of cold, or is merely not being cold the opposite of cold?

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/11/18 9:38 am

Hot and cold is a spectrum, like pain, fear, and most things in life.

We may not have a precise term to describe the opposite of pain and fear, but the notions very much exist to describe it. If we want to attribute terms to it, we could say bliss and trust, respectively, could function as opposites of pain and fear. We may not have an opposite for every word, but the notion certainly exists.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 9:45 am

If I get a cut on my hand, I experience pain in my hand. I cannot experience bliss in my hand.

Trust already has an opposite. It’s distrust. If I distrust someone, I have the expectation that they will betray me, but I wouldn’t necessarily fear them.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 9:47 am

“We may not have an opposite for every word, but the notion certainly exists.”

I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean. Can you demonstrate this claim?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/11/18 10:37 am

Firstly, you don't experience pain in your hand, you experience it in your brain, like all feelings and emotions and sensations.

Trust has the opposite of distrust, but you're playing with semantics, not ideas.

I don't have a precise example in English, but here's one that's been a stumbling block for me in French. The word malheur roughly translates to misfortune. There's not really an opposite term for it. Replace the negative ending, bonheur means happiness. Nevertheless, the notion of fortune, as the opposite of misfortune, still exists.

It's interesting to see how language influences our thinking. That aside, it's a good example of how the opposite of a notion can exist without having an opposite of the term.

commonman1 Peace
06/13/18 9:47 pm

Sugar has no opposite. You have to experience sugar to know it. There is nothing that describe it but itself. Same way with sex. There is no opposite. Describe a climax to someone that never had one. You may say hot is the opposite of cold but they are just different sensations that have to experienced before you understand them. All emotions are the same... love, hate, envy, joy, sadness, etc. explain what those feel like. Hard to understand unless you have experience them.

That’s why we have bodies without them we wouldn’t know these things.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/14/18 7:31 am

“Firstly, you don't experience pain in your hand, you experience it in your brain, like all feelings and emotions and sensations.”

That’s entirely incorrect. The sensation may occur because of activity in my brain, but I still EXPERIENCE it in my hand. If I cut my hand, I would not say that my head hurts. I would say that my hand hurts.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/14/18 7:37 am

“The word malheur roughly translates to misfortune. There's not really an opposite term for it. Replace the negative ending, bonheur means happiness.”

So... there is an opposite term for it then.

“It's interesting to see how language influences our thinking. That aside, it's a good example of how the opposite of a notion can exist without having an opposite of the term.”

This is just an empty claim.

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/14/18 7:40 am

No, not an opposite, because happiness and misfortune aren't opposite.

You're honestly trying to tell me that just because we don't have a word to describe the opposite of something, that it's opposite can't exist as a notion?

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/14/18 7:40 am

Yeah, the idea that nothing has an opposite actually makes way more sense than the idea that everything does. What makes “hot” the opposite of “cold,” rather than merely a different sensation? The answer is nothing. It’s just the way our culture perceives them.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/14/18 7:52 am

“No, not an opposite, because happiness and misfortune aren't opposite.”

Given that “malheur” and “bonheur” have the same suffix, it’s a perfectly reasonable assumption that the French probably think of them as opposites. I looked it up, and although google translates “bonheur” to happiness, other websites and French to English dictionaries say that it can also translate it to “luck” or “fortune.”

You have to be careful with automated translators, because human languages are inherently weird and complicated, and there often isn’t a way to perfectly translate a word from one language to the other. Hence, it’s no surprise that two opposites in one language would translate to two non-opposites in another.

“You're honestly trying to tell me that just because we don't have a word to describe the opposite of something, that it's opposite can't exist as a notion?”

That would make sense to me. I can’t imagine early humans without language understanding the concept of an “opposite.”

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
06/14/18 8:17 am

I speak French. I'm not using automated translators haha.

I don't care if former civilizations didn't understand opposites. We do today. And a thing can't exist without it.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 7:54 am

Yes. Good and evil are merely concepts. The concept of “good” necessarily relies on it being distinct from something else. You might at first think this proves that good cannot exist without evil, however, it is entirely logically possible for a people to have a concept of evil, without that concept corresponding to anything that exists within the world they inhabit. In which case, they could also have a concept of “good,” without the existence of evil.

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Robert97206 Portland Oregon
06/11/18 7:54 am

Nope.

Without evil there's no metric to judge what is good.

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Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/11/18 7:57 am

*Without an understanding of evil there is no metric to judge what is good.

One can have an understanding of evil, while at the same time existing in a world without evil.

lj74
06/11/18 7:47 am

You need a comparison to highlight the differences

GlockMan1 Alabama
06/11/18 7:23 am

It can in Heaven but not on earth.

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