Show of HandsShow of Hands

MrMilkdud June 8th, 2018 12:53pm

Inspired by democrats’ insistence that tolerance can be forced: Constitutional issues aside, if we forced democrats to go to church and strictly adhere to conservative, Christian values, would they become more tolerant and accepting of Christians?

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Comments: Add Comment

suppressedID IMEACH BIDEN
06/09/18 8:52 am

False premise.
Almost all the Democrats I know already ARE Christians.

MrMilkdud
06/09/18 9:00 am

Also, you may want to reread the question.

ladyniner81 no hope for humanity
06/10/18 7:03 am

That article only says EVANGELICALS goes. It doesn't break it down by age, sex, race. Nothing. Just party. Just some partisan bullshit. Never mind that people can be burnt out by religion, their churches priest is a hypocrite (my mom left a church because of that) they have no way of getting there (shutin w/ no family &knows nobody) atheist, lost their faith

ladyniner81 no hope for humanity
06/10/18 7:30 am

And yes I got your partisan article. You can't force someone to become evangelical. You mock people who refuse to go to church because they were forced to, but that would happen, unless the kid embraced the religion themselves. You bitch about having to embrace gay rights and the NAACP, then you know. You wouldn't. You'd ahhh, piss off,

MrMilkdud
06/10/18 7:33 am

I can’t decipher your comments.

SHOWofFIST Flint, MI
06/08/18 10:33 pm

Trick question: you're not being a very good Christian by not loving your neighbor and spewing hate speech. Love one another as I have loved you.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 10:35 pm

Who is spewing hate speech?

Zfilakas Eleftheria i Thanatos
06/08/18 12:44 pm

Doesn't even make sense. The practice of Christianity is already accepted as a civil liberty under the first amendment. The civil liberty for same-sex couples to be legally married has only just recently passed. Due to, guess who, "Christians."

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ShockNAweMack can vs should. think...
06/08/18 10:40 am

I love this poll question because it hits the nail on the head. Ooops should we Ban Nails too? Assault Nails? Am I projecting violence? Ban Projecting.
Democrats= Do as I say, not as I do. Its okay for me but not okay for you.

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Senate101 San Diego
06/08/18 10:38 am

No. If you’re not tolerant, it’s your loss. (Not speaking of you MMD, just in general).

AdamStephens West Virginia
06/08/18 10:20 am

What a huge circle jerk

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 10:22 am

Sounds like somebody needs some diversity training.

AdamStephens West Virginia
06/08/18 10:24 am

Am I forcing you to support gay marriage?

AdamStephens West Virginia
06/08/18 10:35 am

Doesn't look like it's working. I guess we'll just wait till you're dead.

ShockNAweMack can vs should. think...
06/08/18 10:47 am

Yeah actually. You are.

AdamStephens West Virginia
06/08/18 10:49 am

You can't force anyone to accept something. People that feel that pressure feel it from society.

smart1
06/08/18 9:54 am

Trite but true.........sitting in your garage doesn’t make you a car anymore than sitting in church makes you a Christian.

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:59 am

Reread the poll

theNobamist Silicon Valley
06/08/18 9:37 am

Make them all go to "love President Trump" therapy. Everyone else had to go to "obey Obama" indoctrination (called sensitivity and diversity training).

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
06/08/18 9:29 am

How could they possibly be more tolerant of them than they already are?

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shygal47 Florida east coast
06/08/18 9:12 am

Really ridiculous poll.

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:20 am

Sniping with unprovoked personal attacks? Really?
I thought that was beneath you.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:21 am

Besides, @tomlaney1 already awarded me the best poll of 2018 award.
In JUNE!

I respect him infinitely more than I do you, so I’ll take his praise over your petty condemnation.

shygal47 Florida east coast
06/08/18 9:40 am

And now I get attacked because I think a poll is ridiculous? I can’t give an opinion on anything on SOH without someone accusing me of something.
I can’t deal with this nonsense today.
.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:41 am

You’re getting attacked?
By whom?!

omniku dot com
06/08/18 9:42 am

It’s ridiculous because a lot of churchgoers are Democrats.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:43 am

Also, a lot of democrats aren’t churchgoers.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:44 am

According to the last SOH poll on the topic, 61% of democrats report that they “never go to church.”

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:46 am

Wow, and only 10% of democrats go once a month or more.
You really should think twice before getting all prickly at the notion that democrats aren’t generally a church going bunch.

ShockNAweMack can vs should. think...
06/08/18 10:46 am

Wow! Applying instant victim card much? Wow...and now you know why we call liberals snowflakes.
No one said anything to make you a victim of any attack.

shygal47 Florida east coast
06/08/18 12:28 pm

Wow! You guys should read the above conversation after having a couple beers on a rainy afternoon. It's amazing ... considering how it started. I am literally laughing out loud!
.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 12:54 pm

Really ridiculous comment. Thumbs down.

omniku dot com
06/08/18 1:53 pm

“According to the last SOH poll on the topic, 61% of democrats report that they “never go to church.””

I love SOH, but I question the accuracy of their poll stats.

Plenty of Democrats are churchgoers; while churches like the Church of Latter Day Saints and the Church of the Nazarene tend to be solidly Republican, churches like African Methodist Episcopal Church and the National Baptist Convention tend to be solidly Democratic.

.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 6:55 pm

I generally agree with what you’re saying about the veracity of show of hands polls-
But in this case the pattern holds with outside research.
www.washingtonexaminer.com/church-poll-just-18-of-liberals-regularly-attend-62-never
18% of liberals regularly attend church
62% never attend church

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 8:16 am

My dad was forced to go to a Catholic High School for 2 years. He hasn't given a rat's ass about God or religion ever since.

The Spanish Inquisition didn't work too well either.

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:18 am

See my examples for Zimmy.
Liberals have been using schools to push their agendas on kids for generations now.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:22 am

And the Spanish Inquisition worked very well if you understand their purpose, which was to expel embedded Muslim invaders from Spain after the Spanish people expelled the caliphate.

I’m not saying I agree with their methods, but it’s not historically accurate to say they weren’t effective.

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 8:29 am

I know...I was using it in this context. It didn't create many lasting converts to Christianity.

As for the school thing, no institution can legally push any agenda other than fact-based education. Individual teachers are another thing, but anyone who is worried about this vastly overestimates the influence teachers have on the personal views of their students.

CMChristian gone
06/08/18 8:35 am

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Έβœ

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 8:38 am

Their greatest weapon is surprise!

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:48 am

I don’t think it’s very honest to claim that kids aren’t influenced by what they’re taught in school. Schools are frequently pointed to by educators and politicians as the primary place where societal values are taught and reinforced. Some liberals even go so far as to say it’s more influential than the family.

Desegregation of schools, for example, is almost universally regarded as a primary contributor to racial tolerance. Similarly, the push to make global warming and the liberal environmental agenda part of school curriculum is predicated on the belief that children are very much influenced by what they’re taught in school.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:51 am

And as for “fact based” curriculum- I just don’t buy it. Liberals claim a lot of things they believe are “facts,” but that usually just means they’ve gotten other politically motivated liberals with letters behind their names to agree that their agenda is a fact.

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 9:10 am

Politicians and teachers who aren't versed on developmental psychology may vastly overexaggerate the influence of teachers, but the facts conclusively belie this...it's very well-documented. Here's two non-hardcore sources among many:

mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25920011&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Fblogs%2F127%2F%3Fuuid%3D28248

www.businessinsider.com/parents-determine-child-success-income-inequality-2014-1

Teachers have tens to hundreds of students a day. Parents are one-on-one. Also, you falsely assume that teachers all think the same way...when I went to college 25 years ago, Conservative professors outnumbered liberal ones, and it made no difference either way...I was there to learn Literature and History, not what each individual prof thought about social issues. I had a lesbian Shakespeare prof., and my heterosexuality is still firmly intact.

This all comes from a former college instructor who has had a course in developmental psyche.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:18 am

I have a degree in psychology and a ma in social work and a career working with kids in schools.
I’m confident that children are influenced by schools and their teachers.
The degree of that influence and individual variance is obviously always going to be debatable, but you can’t deny that a child is influenced by their experience and the people who surround them.

And, regardless of all that, you aren’t actually denying that liberals use schools as an avenue to push their ideologies. You’re only denying whether that approach is effective.
The liberals doing it believe, very very strongly, that it is an effective way to spread their beliefs.

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 10:22 am

They can believe what they like, facts are facts. I'm surprised you're arguing this with me, since you should know that this is a settled issue in psych circles.

Conservative parents + Liberal teachers = Conservative kid...and since we all have parents or guardians who serve the role of parents, I don't know why you think this is an issue of any concern.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 10:26 am

Ugh. This is not a “settled issue.” It’s just your opinion. Stop mistaking your opinion for fact unless you want people to start calling you a liberal.

Also, how many liberal atheists on this app claim to have been raised in conservative religious homes and credit their descent to the influence of liberal teachers and other mentors?


And regardless of all that, you’re still ignoring the (actual) fact that liberals specifically target school aged kids for the reasons I’ve already stated.

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 10:44 am

I've ignored nothing...I said it was unimportant if some misguided propagandists want to convert their students to their ideologies. Parental influence >> teachers' influence, and it's not just me saying this, but a commanding majority of developmental psychological researchers, as published ad nauseum in academic journals. It's been a while since I took that class, but I've read a few of those articles. It's been settled for a while. I never said teachers (and peers) have no influence...just not enough to matter.

Call me a Liberal if you want...that's what I am.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 10:46 am

It’s not settled. Nobody behaves as though it’s settled.
We’re going in circles. I’m moving on.

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 10:54 am

Yeah, shoo, fly. Shoo!

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 11:00 am

I just don’t see the point of “nuh huh”ing eachother indefinitely.

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 11:29 am

I think you're as afraid of academic consensus as I am of religion 🀣

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 11:31 am

Are you unable to leave a discussion amicably?

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 12:32 pm

I notice you seem to want the last word. Why is that? ;)

I bear you no malice. Go in peace. πŸ™πŸ˜‡

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
06/08/18 8:07 am

BEST POLL OF 2018‼️ πŸ†πŸ‘πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ†

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:10 am

I’d like to thank the academy, my fellow SOH users, and my mom.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
06/08/18 8:43 am

We'll order some miniature trophies, but you can't have more than 100.

ShockNAweMack can vs should. think...
06/08/18 10:52 am

I'm a rare conservative atheist and I don't get all butthurt regarding religion. In fact I have a healthy respect for people who worship. Even though it's not my thing.
Banning crosses and ten commandments or Jewish stars being removed from cemeteries and crosses even on military graveyards is just ridiculousness.

ShockNAweMack can vs should. think...
06/08/18 10:53 am

You left out your dad. 😢

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 11:06 am

Oh no! I always get so nervous at my acceptance speeches!

Robert97206 Portland Oregon
06/08/18 7:37 am

No, quite the opposite. That would fuel their intolerance.

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lukemeyer62 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
06/08/18 7:24 am

I’m a devout Christian and a Liberal. Point?

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 7:26 am

Reread the question

orgblu10 Shamerica
06/08/18 7:19 am

I actually believe some would. If any have open hearts toward God, they would have to be affected somewhat. I won't underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit. But for the majority whose hearts are hardened against God, they'd probably just get lawyers and protest in the streets.

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Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 7:15 am

What are dems doing that’s equivalent to this? I honestly can’t tell what you’re trying to allude to.

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
06/08/18 7:20 am

This user is currently being ignored

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 7:27 am

That didn’t answer my question.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 7:42 am

Don’t waste your time, nemacyst. This is a new user who depends heavily on rhetorical denial.
This is the second time they’ve used the “I honestly don’t see that” line in one of my polls since they started a couple of days ago.

It’s schtick. They’re not interested in honest dialogue.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 7:43 am

Yeah, because I’m genuinely curious. I’m just asking a question. I haven’t “denied” anything.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 7:46 am

What is “honest dialogue”? And what is it about asking for a specific example of a general claim that fails to meet the criteria of “honest dialogue”?

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 7:48 am

If that’s what you did, then I would have answered your question.
But rhetorical denial is schtick. And schtick is just another form of trolling.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 7:50 am

And that is what I did. So why haven’t you answered my question?

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 7:51 am

I honestly can’t tell what you’re trying to allude to.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 7:53 am

I can even tell you right now, it’s entirely possible that you’re completely right about everything. I merely want to dig deeper and find out whether or not this is the case.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 7:56 am

Then you need to start by being honest when you enter a conversation.
Feigning denial that you’re even aware the other person’s point of view exists is not honest. Or you live in such a thick bubble that you’re honestly unaware of the world around you.
Either way, I’m not interested.
Have a nice day.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 8:01 am

We may simply have different interpretations of the world around us. Refusing to even attempt to engage with or understand another perspective is what’s truly dishonest. When you refuse to put your ideology to the test, your ideology becomes less reliable.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 8:02 am

And please do explain where the dishonesty is in “What are dems doing that’s equivalent to this? I honestly can’t tell what you’re trying to allude to.”

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:02 am

I don’t engage liberal trolls. I’ve wasted too much time on you already.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:04 am

And this is not avoidance of the questions you pretended to ask. I already answered those questions from a different user in this poll.

I object to your persistent, fake unawareness of liberals using force to push their agenda.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 8:09 am

Then you are objecting to something that does not exist.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:10 am

And now you’re back to your schtick.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
06/08/18 8:12 am

This user is currently being ignored

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:14 am

Yep. Nemacyst answered your fair question head on and you were not interested in his answer at all.
That’s your “tell.”

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 8:22 am

That was not an answer. I asked for a specific example of a general claim. Nem merely provided yet another general claim. Why you think that constitutes an answer to my question is beyond me.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:28 am

You just can’t stop your schtick, can you?
You must live around a lot of very dumb people if you’ve had enough success with that nonsense to depend on this rhetorical trick so much.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 8:32 am

I still have no idea what my “schtick” is.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:38 am

Uh huh

phalnx Ohio
06/08/18 12:44 pm

It's that thing you pee out of between your legs.

zimmy Florida
06/08/18 7:02 am

Where does the Left force you to go somewhere?

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 7:46 am

Is that the sticking point you’re going to go for to claim that liberals don’t use force to compel tolerance?
You’re just setting up a series of shifting goalposts. If I point out examples of people having to “go places” to be indoctrinated, then you’ll come up with some new artificial standard for the analogy.

zimmy Florida
06/08/18 7:47 am

You used forced Church as an example, I’m just asking where Liberals force you to go somewhere?

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 7:49 am

I know what you asked. And if I answer you’ll just say “that’s ridiculous. That’s not the same at all...”
And then I’ll end up either walking away or chasing moving goalposts.

zimmy Florida
06/08/18 7:53 am

But aren’t you doing the same thing as you claim? I haven’t been forced to go anywhere I want to go? So I am curious?

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:01 am

Mandatory diversity training is a good, basic example. Google is notorious for requiring employees to attend diversity training exercises that squash dissent and make agreement with their social agenda mandatory. James Damore’s public letter to Google, which got him fired, was all over the news not too long ago.

Schools are another great example. Kids are already required to go to school, and liberals have a long history of using that captive environment to push their agenda on unsuspecting minors.
The same goes for universities. Tenured professors who teach required classes have a long history of turning their classrooms into a platform to push their liberals agendas.

zimmy Florida
06/08/18 8:06 am

Ok, good points you make, however but it’s still not quite forced, in the way you said Church would be, but I get your point, fair enough.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:09 am

I never said how anyone would be forced- so whatever dissimilarities you see in that regard stem from reading into the question.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:11 am

And thank you for not shifting goalposts.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 8:21 am

Finally. Was that so hard?

Google isn’t a required place to work.

I can understand your frustration with the education system. Really, I do. Even my own college gets on my nerves sometimes for being too liberal. But I can also tell you that the liberal bias in academia is vastly over exaggerated by conservatives. Sure, teachers and professors tend to be liberal more often than not, and some don’t make any effort to suppress their biases when teaching their classes. But to claim there’s some grand plot to indoctrinate our kids and breed liberalism is just nonsense.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 8:25 am

Government force isn’t the only type of force in the world.
You wouldn’t seriously deny that employers have the capacity to use force on their employees, would you?

And You’re back to being dishonest again by accusing me of a vast left wing conspiracy.
I’m simply pointing out how liberals tend to use their power to shape children in schools.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 8:31 am

“Government force isn’t the only type of force in the world.
You wouldn’t seriously deny that employers have the capacity to use force on their employees, would you?”

No, but your analogy was “forcing Christians to go to church and strictly adhere to Christian, conservative values.” It should be clear that a company “using force” on their employees is not analogous to this.

“And You’re back to being dishonest again by accusing me of a vast left wing conspiracy.
I’m simply pointing out how liberals tend to use their power to shape children in schools.”

That’s fair, but it’s also true that everyone tends to use their power to shape children into fitting in with their values. It’s just that academia just so happens to have more liberals than conservatives.

.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:02 am

“It should be clear that a company “using force” on their employees is not analogous to this. “

Of course it is. A company could require participation in daily church services and a strict moral code as a condition of employment. They could fire someone for non-compliance just like google could fire someone for not attending diversity training or adhering to their moral code.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 9:03 am

“That’s fair, but it’s also true that everyone tends to use their power to shape children into fitting in with their values. It’s just that academia just so happens to have more liberals than conservatives.”

Then you admit I’m right and that it isn’t some crazy conspiracy to believe that liberals use their power and position to manipulate school children to adopt their values and agenda.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 10:23 am

“Of course it is. A company could require participation in daily church services and a strict moral code as a condition of employment. They could fire someone for non-compliance just like google could fire someone for not attending diversity training or adhering to their moral code.”

Then they wouldn’t exactly be being forced to go to church. They would have the option to quit their job and find a different employer. I thought your poll was implying legally requiring people to go to church and adhere to conservative values; was it not?

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 10:26 am

“Then you admit I’m right and that it isn’t some crazy conspiracy to believe that liberals use their power and position to manipulate school children to adopt their values and agenda.”

Your statement is true, but misleading. It’s also true that conservatives use their power and position to manipulate school children to adopt their values and agenda. It just doesn’t happen as often because their are more liberal teachers and professors than there are conservative ones. So sure, you’re technically correct, but acting like this says anything about liberalism as a whole, especially in relation to other ideologies, is dishonest.

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 10:27 am

Where did I say anything about legal force?
That’s your own interpretation.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 10:30 am

That’s why I asked “was it not?”

MrMilkdud
06/08/18 10:32 am

You are so desperate to be right about something.

Talren Libertarian Socialist
06/08/18 10:38 am

I don’t even know what that means.

mark4
06/08/18 6:17 am

The one democrat said yes. 🀣

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Okie1967 Is Biden self aware
06/08/18 6:16 am

Yes. Eventually they'd learn that it wasn't anything like they thought and would begin to understand the Christian point of view.

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Okie1967 Is Biden self aware
06/08/18 6:17 am

But it would take a long time for this to happen. Initially they'd be butthurt at being forced to undergo what the type of treatment they propose for everyone else all the time.

think4yourself Not a safe space
06/08/18 6:12 am

The tolerant left are not tolerant.

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MrMilkdud
06/08/18 6:14 am

But, by their logic, they would be if we forced them to be.

think4yourself Not a safe space
06/08/18 6:21 am

But just like taxes and charity, their “logic” applies to other people complying, not themselves.

GeezerGolf Show us your papers
06/08/18 6:07 am

“He who is convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.” William James (?)

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gluxford1 Arizona
06/08/18 6:06 am

Wow, you must be speaking some hard truths because the trolls really don’t like you today. I up voted and it’s still at zero. To answer your question, if that hypothetical situation occurred you’d likely see less tolerance of Christians from the left. The stronger you force something on someone, the stronger they’ll resist.

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gluxford1 Arizona
06/08/18 6:08 am

And as you pointed out, the left has not yet learned this lesson, as they are still forcing identity politics and SJWism down the throats of an unwilling American populous.

kscott516 Masks fail
06/08/18 7:20 am

The “intellectuals” don’t appear to understand the poll question.