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TheMadScientist the mad laboratory
05/28/18 12:17 pm

Perpetrators are responsible for the crime. Would-be victims are responsible for preventing a crime.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/28/18 5:42 pm

“Would-be victims are responsible for preventing a crime”??

No.

TheMadScientist the mad laboratory
05/28/18 6:48 pm

If your car is broken into and you make an insurance claim, they ask you if you locked the doors.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/28/18 9:45 pm

How does that relate to rape and sexual assault?

TheMadScientist the mad laboratory
05/29/18 2:28 am

We’ve established prevention is the responsibility of the victim. The answer to the question, “What were you doing just beforehand?” is a relevant one. There is a threshold of lack of diligence after which the victim has taken on too much risk with their own behavior for them to be treated as if they’d behaved in a reasonable way to prevent a foreseeable crime.

This isn’t a legal line - we know those are all the fault of the perpetrator. This is an issue of acceptable risk. Locking your doors creates an acceptable level of risk because it doesn’t make it easy to steal from your car - it is a proactive choice on the part of the victim to reduce risk.

Rape victims can also reduce risk in reasonable ways. I’m not saying they ought to have crazy extreme defensive behavior. I am saying some behavior is associated with unacceptable levels of risk and, therefore, has a high cost either in insurance, security, or trauma.
...

TheMadScientist the mad laboratory
05/29/18 2:36 am

To be clear, I locked doors do not *cause* theft. They just make it easy. They increase risk. That’s what I’m talking about: reasonable risk mitigation.

The answers to questions like:
1) were you alone?or with someone?
2) were you wearing clothing over your genitals?
3) were you sober?
...and I’m sure others, could indicate the
risk of the behavior. Again, a blackout drunk, naked, totally alone person should be able to make it home without being raped - but their risk is a lot higher than mine is right now.

What is the acceptable level of risk that we’ll allow a victim to take on before we say that they behaved unreasonably?
..

knetzere Illinois
05/28/18 8:25 am

I wouldn’t trust a criminal to ensure my security.

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ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 9:43 pm

I agree, even though my phone just finally finished loading that imgur gif.

phalnx Ohio
05/27/18 7:12 pm

I agree with Camille Paglia...no one should be raped, but women should take some responsibility by not placing themselves in a position to be raped. Walking alone at night in a bad part of town or on a college campus...yeah, that's asking for it.

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FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/28/18 5:43 pm

“Asking for it”.

No, they are not.

phalnx Ohio
05/28/18 6:00 pm

Reality is reality. Pretty girls can't walk around unescorted at night...there are way too many predators out there. Don't believe me...check your local Sex Offenders registry. That's just the people they've caught.

phalnx Ohio
05/28/18 11:22 pm

Face, that's not the point. No one asks for bad things to happen to them, but through their actions they may make such events more or less likely. Yes, in an ideal world, everyone would be free to do as they wished, whenever they wished, but that's not the world we live in. Unless you know of a way to establish an omnipotent, omnipresent Rape Police force, it's gonna happen to some people who make themselves vulnerable to it.

Rapists take no responsibility, nor do they honor laws or civility. The prime responsibility for preventing rapes, therefore, rests on those who are responsible and at risk. That would be the women.

Zach21 California
05/27/18 6:43 pm

The rapist. Doesn’t matter what gender. Not sure what’s up with your answer choices

Reply
FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/28/18 5:43 pm

Pick a side. No one said this was easy.

Zach21 California
05/28/18 5:47 pm

Can’t pick a side when the answer choices make no sense

Praetorianus Fair enough.
05/27/18 5:51 pm

Those who have the urge to rape.
They need a shrink before they act out.

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ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 6:05 pm

I agree, unfortunately, it's usually a matter of value of the agency of others, so I doubt they would, or that it would help much. It would take a value-change, which is difficult.

But, yeah, if they can try, they definitely should.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 6:11 pm

Do you think that most people who rape have an “urge” to rape? Do they even think of it that way?

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 6:19 pm

Depends on what that means.

It's most often a matter of respect, or lack of respect, for the agency of the victim.

They either dislike something that the person is doing and do not respect their right to do it, or they just don't respect their right to deny consent.

I do think it's usually the thought of "oh, I need to rape someone" although it might be the case for some.

Praetorianus Fair enough.
05/27/18 6:27 pm

I don't know any rapist.
There may be several reasons :
- compulsion (mental illness)
- entitlement (they don't see it as rape)
- misinterpretation of rejection as being coy, playing hard to get (extremely low EQ, low ability to interpret others' feelings plus lack of empathy)
- senility or mentally disabled
- last not least: urge to dominate and humiliate, sociopathy.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
05/27/18 7:42 pm

The "urge to rape" comes from men believing they are entitled to women's bodies. Rape isn't always done in a back alley somewhere. It's often done by those closest to someone.

Supervisor
05/27/18 5:26 pm

Wish I could dislike this past 0 into the negatives

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ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 6:00 pm

Well, one reason could be because it conflates the terms victim and woman, as it does the terms rapist and man, which it shouldn't. The terms mean different things.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 6:02 pm

No - YOU conflated them in your own mind. Your mind immediately went there. I responded to your assumptions.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 6:04 pm

I didn't make the poll. The conflation is in the poll.

Therefore I didn't make the conflation.

I responded to the responses already.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 6:06 pm

You read the poll and assumed that female = victim and male = attacker.

YOU did that. Not me.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 9:42 pm

I suppose that's fair, but that was the only way the options could make sense.

That, or you either actually see one single sex as bearing the sole responsibility for rape, regardless of whether or not the individual members of that sex have anything to do with rape themselves, and actually believe the other can do nothing about it.

Again, it is the responsibility of everyone to prevent rape. Putting the options as one sex or another is absurd for this particular question. (Whereas victim or rapist would not be.)

I still don't see how my assumption clashed with my objections. It's still an unfair poll, because it creates a false dilemma.

Supervisor
05/27/18 11:13 pm

What was your answer to this poll face palm

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/28/18 12:07 am

Both. Not in a victimizer/victim sense but in a teaching our children about sexual assault and how it is never ok, by cracking down on assault in prisons, by treating every accusation seriously (in terms of investigation), by taking the shame away from the victim and putting it squarely on the shoulders of the victimizer where it belongs, and by punishing those who rape.

In an individual sense: taking precautions and intervening/speaking up when something seems “not right”.

Right now the onus is more on men and parents of boys - BUT - more stories are being told of girls participating in the shaming and are the victimizers.
..

Supervisor
05/28/18 2:06 am

The way the question is worded, and only being 2 answers, you are making it seem like only males or only females are responsible. It seemed like a sexist question tbh

ctskapski NB MD
05/28/18 10:04 am

If you, yourself, believe it should be both (which I agree with), why would you present all readers of the question with the false dilemma that it must be one or the other (the only two options)? What purpose would that serve?

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/28/18 5:46 pm

It forces you to choose. There is not base right or wrong answers.

Some of the reasons provided are highly questionable, but I did not ask for a reason. Just a choice.

ctskapski NB MD
05/28/18 6:11 pm

But they're false choices.
There is a right answer.
Everyone.

Why force people to make a false choice?
Just stirring the pot?

Supervisor
05/28/18 10:13 pm

Ya it seems like you would rather argue than reasonably debate/exchange thoughts and solutions. I'm still not sure what you are trying to get at by defending this poorly written poll. Dislike dislike dislike dislike

paranoidandroid beantown scientist lady
05/27/18 4:52 pm

The rapist... who could be male or female.

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FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 4:59 pm

Women are 25x more likely to be raped.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 5:04 pm

But, recent studies show that rates of sexual assault are very similar.

Praetorianus Fair enough.
05/27/18 5:55 pm

True most are male but I would have given these choices:
- potential rapist
- potential rape victim

Praetorianus Fair enough.
05/27/18 6:29 pm

You don't see why? Because it is not always about gender, my wording catches all situations.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
05/27/18 7:47 pm

Even if men are raped as well, rape as a social phenomenon is still related to patriarchy and male entitlement. The onus is still on men. The existence of women who have attained a privileged status vis-à-vis other women still have this privilege due to other existing power relations, such as capitalism, patriarchy, and racism.

Krystina President Elect Krystina
05/27/18 4:50 pm

Parents, community, society, socialization, shrinks, government/laws.

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ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 4:48 pm

Literally anyone.

More prevention > less prevention.

People should prevent themselves from being raped.

People shouldn't rape.

Regardless of gender.

This question is roughly of the same calibur as asking "Who is responsible for preventing theft, blacks or whites?"

It's not a very good question.

Reply
FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 4:52 pm

Not really. Your comparison is racist at its foundation.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 4:53 pm

And your question is sexist in foundation.

4Freedom1776
05/27/18 4:58 pm

I agree the question is a double edged sword, but I would disagree with your comparison. A better comparison would be who’s responsible for stolen property the owner of the property or the thief. Both to an extant but no matter how well you protect something a thief who will stop at nothing is hard to stop.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 4:58 pm

Not in the context of rape - a woman is 25x more likely to be raped than a man.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 5:02 pm

Right. So it is my job to make sure Joe X does not rape Jill Y.

No.

Moreover, I recognize women are the victims of rape more often, but that in no way delegitimizes when men are victims of rape.

Moreover, men are not the only rapists.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 5:04 pm

4freedom, yes, that's somewhat valid, but I also wanted to point out that the poll (like the comparison) did not ask victim/rapist. The asked made the choice to instead make it a question about men vs women, rather than victim vs rapist.

That's pointed. And arguably implies more about sex than rape.

4Freedom1776
05/27/18 5:04 pm

I’m surprised it’s not more than that. Women are also 25x more likely to lie about it.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 5:42 pm

When rapes are committed equally by men and women against men and women you will have a point. Until then you are waving your arms around like the wizard of OZ.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 5:45 pm

By the way, the question as asked in no way delegitimizes the reality that men and boys are also victims.

Thanks for playing!

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 5:47 pm

@4freedom1776

That comment about lying - totally sexist and without a verifiable source.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 5:55 pm

Women are victims more, not exclusively.

An honest question would be
"Who is responsible for preventing rape: the rapist or the victim?"

My answer would remain the same, but THAT would be an honest question.

Rape is bad, but woman is not a synonym for victim anymore than man is a synonym for rapist (which it isn't.)
Wording the question as it is worded implies that this is the case, which it simply isn't. That is why this question is sexist.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 5:59 pm

Again, it is my responsibility to try and prevent a rape, if I know about it. This would not change if I were a woman.

More prevention > less prevention.

It is also my responsibility, to myself, to try and limit my chance of being raped, by defending myself. That would not change by gender.

It is also my responsibility not to rape. That would not change by my gender.
But that's not a concern of mine, because (even though I'm male,) I'm not a rapist.
So that part is less of a concern for me, personally, (even though the question implies that it SHOULD, for some reason, be a concern of mine, because I am a male.)

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/27/18 6:04 pm

You are making an assumption. Your assumption actually contradicts what your objection is.

ctskapski NB MD
05/27/18 6:08 pm

1. What assumption do you think am I making?
2. How does it contradict what I say?

Your options are "men" and "women" as though they are homogenous groups in which one member of the population is responsible for all of them.
That makes this a dishonest question which pits men against women in a very sexist way.
Now, again, if the question were "rapist" or "victim." Then it would be more honest.

If a person, male or female, knows about rape, they should do something.

4Freedom1776
05/27/18 6:20 pm

First of all how is it sexist? Just stop right there. There are always going to be false accusations about ALL crimes. The % of false accusations are generally the same around all crimes. But if 25% of a crime is accused by one sex it’s not far fetched to say that that sex commits 25% more false accusations. You are correct that I don’t have verifiable source and I don’t care to look into it honestly but statistics would probably be not too far off.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
05/28/18 6:02 pm

Your understanding of statistics is flawed.