Keystone XL oil pipeline: block it or build it?
I love how absolutely blind people really are! Do any of you REALLY, HONESTLY believe that this pipeline will lower fuel prices? It won't, because we're stupid people, who fall for this crap all the time. The only thing it will do is dump more profits into the oil companies' pockets...GUARANTEED!
Again 60% of Democrats are clueless
If we were to create jobs in areas such as alternative energy,we could crack the monopoly countries such as China have created on it. Economically, dual benefit of taking jobs from China and creating jobs here. Environomentally, much cleaner. Even better healthwise (addition by subtraction).
Addition by subtraction of dirty air - according to a Harvard study, coal alone adds something like at least $120-$240 billion in costs to the economy that we don't actually pay for (in effect, a private subsidy) and 80% of that is healthcare related.About $75 billion of that is in Appalachia alone.
All costs annual. And the true cost could be as high as $500 billion+ in a worst case scenario. Again, for all costs, roughly 80% healthcare related, the rest in environmental effects and things like lost tourism. We don't pay the true costs for the use of any fossil fuel, in particular oil & coal.
But I agree with what you are getting at, so we'll let that slide. Because you are right, we are not and will not recieve any of the oil pumped through.
Oops, this was supposed to go as a response below...typed in wrong box.
Finally, gas prices will not go down, since the oil is just going to be exported out of the country. They will go down in other countries, but not here in the US. So there goes the gas argument.
On top of this, as was noted earlier, this is the dirtiest form of hydrocarbons known to exist. Further, it is far more corrosive than normal crude due toadditives that are needed to make it flow (ordinarily too dense) - greater risk for spills.
We also waste natural gas, the cleanest hydrocarbon, to produce the dirtiest (via SAGD extraction, the primary non-strip mining method) which releases (in a wells-to-wheels analysis) something like 40x as much pollution as conventional crude.
Again, look up the story about the guy who walked the entire length of the proposed pipeline, including that shared with the current Keystone (aka Keystone Phase 1). He talked with people along that. He was told it has provided almost no permanent jobs. So there goes the jobs argument...
Whatever lowers gas prices, I say go for it.
It won't. The oil will just be exported to foreign markets.
It's one thing to build a pipeline, but it's a completely different story in cleaning up. Fact is, we do not have the means to clean up tar sands oil if it spills. They proved this a few yrs ago. Until they know how to clean it up w minimal damage on the environment, I say BLOCK IT.
Lets be responsible and smart Americans. At the end of the day, it's our tax money that pays the bills on these oil disasters. If oil companies cannot clean up their mess then we should not allow them to build.
Oil is moving by truck & rail now. Pipelines are the safest way to move oil. Look at Dept Transportation stats. There are 2.3 million miles of pipelines (oil & gas) in the USA today & more being built every day.
Not true...any cleanup of a spill is charged to the pipeline company. Pipelines are built with private capital, no govt money.
But these companies (Enbridge in particular) have not proven capable of such cleanups in effective manners. And in the meantime, we all pay the cost in things like polluted water. Groundwater pollution in particular would be a major issue, it takes YEARS to clean groundwater.
Funny.. I scrolled dwn a bit n no one from AK has commented. Me having a job on the north slope whom depends on the oil production for this.... Anyone working on the slope here?
Look up oil pipeline map. Adding the keystone is like adding another highway. Want to complain? what about the department of energy, created 35yrs ago to find and create alternative energy. And? Civilian industry's have done a better job in less time found what cut from the budget.
I love it when obama brags about oil production being up the last 4 yrs., forgetting to mention that drilling leases on fed. lands are way Down on his watch. Oil production is up, in Spite of this socialist. This pipeline should have gone thru the first time around.
A major disaster happened...I'm thankful this administration has been at least somewhat prudent. The MMS is crooked anyhow. Needs a good cleaning out.
You know for two years straight they didn't include price caps or royalties in leases. The GOA was investigating- might still be.
BChrome, I see you're still selling this tired old tale about drilling Federal land. Why the hell should drilling need to be done at all on Federal land?! That's places like state parks, nature reserves, etc. why would anyone risk the damage, aside from pure and outright greed?
Wondering...will any of the gulf states get royalties for refining this oil?
It may burst
More people will be for it once gas hits the $4.50-$5 mark this summer.
You mean like it was supposed to last summer?
Thought it was supposed to hit $6 like 2, 3, 4 years ago.
More people would be against it. Because it raises has prices.
Only people who have no idea what they're talking about would make a statement like you just did.
Letting another country pipe oil through America will not lower gas prices.
The American people are very miss informed on this. Do not forget that's this goes over the nations largest aquifer. THE SOURCE OF MOST OF OUR FOOD! It has a history of leaking. It can go around this aquifer.
They already have changed the route is what I heard.
We have 2.3 million miles of oil & gas pipelines in the USA today. You think none of them goes near an aquifer?
Why don't you all take a FREE bus ride with the college kid. You do all the work and they want it all free. Wonder if mommie is holding his hand waiting for the free bus.
so a foreign country wants my land and I say no. They go to my government and ask them to take it from me and run an aoil pipeline over my ground water supply that my family and cattle drink from and I use to irrigate my crops. You say drill baby drill. what does that mean we aren't drilling here
they are drilling in canada it is being shipped by rail south right now. the plan is to pipe it south to be refined then sell it overseas or pipe it back to canada. we are not recieving any of it.
this is another case of letting people vote on something when it has little immediate effect on there lives. I am conservative to the core but this gives me a glimps into what liberals see when they try to reason with us.
It creates jobs. Yes it's Canada's oil, but I would rather trade oil with Canada then a Middle Eastern country, who wants to blow us up. Also, I think the people who say drill here, are just saying overall to drill in america. On environment, if your so worried about it, lose your gadgets, cars etc.
not worried about the environment in general. However the back bone of our crappy economy is agricultural products ie Corn, beans, wheat, ect all of which require clean ground water. we spend money on oil we make money off our ag. why endanger our ag for someone elses oil profits.
as for jobs it creates a handfull compared to the bucket full it will cost us. Takes more people to haul it than to pipe it. we are hauling it now.
I don't disagree with you that ag is important however, I do disagree that oil & nat gas production is going to pollute the air & water. Yes accidents do happen but rare. If you don't have oil/gas, how are you going to plow the fields (mule?), & transport crops for sales, without oil/gas? Oil=jobs
But we won't get that oil so it won't help our transport/ag.
Much more likely that that aquifer will be polluted with pesticides than oil, though.
sadly it has been polluted with pesticides and such. when I was a kid nobody ever heard of filtering water now you'd be crazy not to. I hope you guys are right about it not happening. ground water would be all but imposible to clean up. couldn't imagine filtering thousands of gallons a minute to
Joh: I'm w you. When the same oil spilled in Michigan, they couldn't clean it up. American families on the route faced health issues, I wouldn't want that for anyone. I think we jumped on the 'drill baby drill' bandwagon w/out holding anyone responsible.
JohnnyBraska, you can't drill bitumen in the conventional sense. Too viscous and dense. You need to extract either through open pit mining (take a look on Google at the tailings ponds that creates) or methods such as SAGD, which wastes natural gas. Then, you need corrosive additives to make it flow
But I agree with what you are getting at, so we'll let that slide...because you're right, the "oil" is not staying here and will not stay here.
Drill baby drill!!!
We should stop being reliant on petroleum. We'll continue being OPEC and the Middle East's slaves into we fine alternative sources of energy.
Unless the Federal government wises up and releases the stranglehold they're maintaining on our vast domestic energy stores of oil and natural gas. It's estimates that we have more oil than Saudi Arabia. We could be energy independent if the Feds would stop preventing us from getting at it!!
This would be a fine time for Vermont to secede, or so it would seem from their outlandish showing on this poll (pun intended). ;-)
Easy now Bchrome... Don't make me open a can of ............, spent a lot of time in Virginia with the military. I know it well along with all the huge cockroaches....
Vermont's the only state with any sense here...funny, one of two states without a coal (or oil) power plant, yet still a balanced budget ...they have shown you can run on alternative energy in a fiscally responsible manner...you don't need to ruin economies doing it. Change doesn't mean ruin.
Pipelines are the safest way to move oil.. Downfall Democratic contributors would loose money.. Good reason for the president to say no! Ulterior motive?
It's funny how this President can manipulate people so easily! Just say its a good cause, wrong for the environment, it's for the kids and people will fight tooth and nail before doing any research of their own,,,
Fruits and nuts out there in lala land CA
I don't think one pipeline more or less makes much difference, but what's inexplicable is that just as we're discovering huge reserves of oil and natural gas here in the US we have an idiot in the White House who is blocking access to federal lands to extract it. Our economy should be BOOMING now.
Look at what's happening in N Dakota already.
same theory as BP has thousands of wells what difference does one more make.
Im sure you'll think everything's fine until a disaster happens near you. It smelled like Benzene here for weeks after Horizon-I think the oil was being burnt as part of cleanup. Couldn't have pe outside. When it was real humid and foggy one evening I could taste it.
It's cutting through red states. When it spills all over their lands, ill be sure to scream out"drill baby, drill!" And then watch them beg like little puppy dogs to the Feds for assistance á la Chris Christie.
Damn straight my brother. Preach
We have thousands of miles of pipeline now and that hasn't happened yet.
I check the pipeline across my pasture every day and I still can't find any leaks. A new pipeline will start construction this summer next to the existing one. I guess I collect pipelines.
Hey Leary do they compensate you for use of you're land?
Tck, they purchased right of way which lets them bury pipeline and then maintain it from the surface. Maintenance so far (20 yrs) is walking inspections a couple of times a year and frequent flyovers looking for "construction projects". Phillips petroleum are good people to work with.
Leary, what's their work like in East Africa or South America?
@teach how about you go check it out over there and give us a sit rep..
Teach, I've heard their Aids education, prevention and treatment programs have been well received and their rainforest reforestation programs have been widely emulated.
Leary-that's encouraging, That's something I'd like to learn more about. Companies do a lot to present themselves in a good light. Developing countries have widespread corruption. I wonder if they are required adhere to equal or better standards-and if they do it.
Thirdcoast - I've already been.
Leary-let me clarify, my last post was a little vague. I'm speaking about environmental regulations and how the companies (im speaking generally, not specifically Phillips) adhere to/ enforce them. Point-source pollution is a huge problem. Superfund act was passed decades ago-we haven't recovered
But that's on land. Now there are a lot of rigs.
Oil will soon be dead. The sooner the better.
It'll live until universal nuclear power becomes practical:
Cold fusion technology is being developed in this country and others. It has the potential to far exceed fission and fusion technology with zero radioactive by-products. Completely clean.
This is where we should be focusing our efforts.
So you don't like plastic, don't like anything with "synthetic" fibers, don't like anything man-made? Where do you think the material comes from? 35% of a barrel of crude oil is used in making household items including makeup, despite what people tell you, gas is the short chain material.
Look at our red map, Barry, and get out of the way of Keystone!
I'm against the pipeline because I'm certain a lot of the land will be taken via eminent domain, which I strongly oppose.
I oppose eminent domain as well. I think that if the owner is forced to move, they should get at LEAST double the highest valuation of their property. But in many cases leasing the land would achieve the same goal without seizing the land. In most cases, eminent domain is a complete crock.
I sold a right-a-way for thousands of dollars to a private company. The govt comes and takes your property without "proper" compensation, Not private canoes. Spell check did canoes out of companies. Wow.
Why is this such a big deal?
Amazing to me. Like a political p*ssing contest.
Certain media outlets have misled a certain demographic on this issues. As a result, this has become another in a long line of "issues" that have to be hacked to death.
Build it, produce it, & drill it in America. America does not need energy from middle eastern countries. To all you liberals who scream environment, ask yourself this: do other countries care about the environment? No. So why do you want your energy coming from them, The ones who want to hurt us?
I'm not liberal but it is canadian oil which they are not going to sell to us. Why take an enviromental risk for someone else with nothing to gain ourselves?
I had a professor who worked in Canada - Alberta is the worst province/state in North America (north of the US- Mexico border) when it comes to things like enviro regulations and responsibility. They aren't interested in that, despite what they claim. Actions speak louder than words.
In 30+ years of oil sand development, despite the fact that companies are legally "required" to reclaim the land back to its original condition, fewer than 10 or so reclamation certificates at the most have been issued. And it took like 25 years for the first one.
This tells two things: 1) that the companies don't care about reclamation, and 2) the Albertan government is willing to turn a blind eye toward this violation of the contract the companies signed when they were leased public land.
Also, the current pipeline has produced very few permanent jobs. What reason is there to believe this will be any different? None. Better to create long-term, stable jobs in other areas than temporary jobs that encourage unsustainable (long-term) and irresponsible, bordering illegal, behaviors.
Pretty sure pipelines don't carry oil both directions. Just sayin
Sometimes I wish more states were like Vermont...
The pipeline DOES NOT MEAN we get the oil. It means the oil can be shipped put anywhere the multi-nationals want to sell it.
WTF would you build a pipeline to the gulf if the intent was to sell it here?
A.) it makes us money by making us a middle man. Do you really think the government is going to let oil get pumped without charging? And B.) if I controlled the pipeline I would rather have spread it out to areas near the pipe than pay to have it shipped across the ocean.
Because lots of Americans will have jobs building and maintaining the pipeline. The oil will go to a different country whether it goes thru the USA or not. WTF would we not want a slice of the employment pie. As it is the employment rate is going to go above 8%.
Well I hope the employment rate makes it above 8%. Things are much worse than I thought. (I'm kidding)
we have already created perminent american jobs from hauling this oil on trains if we build the pipeline those jobs go away. by the way the railroads are still hiring to meet demand from this ant there are plans to install a loading facility in ND. lots of jobs for no pipeline
I guess Vermont and the dems loves to pay over $4.00 a gallon for gas as for the rest if us get the pipeline going already
Lets look at the positive-people will drive less, maybe even exercise more. It is their choice to drive. I hate suburban sprawl, although I currently live in it. it seems so unnatural-how the car's become an appendage we believe we cant live w/out. Our perception of survival/living is skewed by it
DRILL BABY DRILL! Or at least calm the F down about the high gas prices if you only want to buy foreign oil. If you build it, they will come...
Pipeline safety, standards & inspection are handled by PHMSA, a division of the U.S. Dept of Transportation. All current 2.3 million miles, all pipelines currently being built & all future pipelines.
Build it but place a ban on oil exports. No more oil exports until gasoline drops below $2 a gallon and jet fuel drops below $3 a gallon.
Careful, while that sounds nice, we ban exportation of oil we get counter banned or have uber-tariffs imposed against us.
Obama has a problem. The unions that he's beholding to want this pipeline desperately.
I'm democratic, but I'm for it. I care about the environment, but if this will lower gas prices, create jobs, and stall an oil crises, I'm for it.
It's amazing! When ever greed is involved the results are never good! This is no exception! Corners will be cut, oil will be spilled and we will ultimately suffer.
Pipelines are the safest way to move oil. There are 2.3 million miles of pipelines for oil & natural gas in the USA currently. If you use natural gas to heat your house, there is one near your house right now.
This whole issue is ones "Speculation."
It's a result of speculation
Time to start transferring our wealth to us. Drill drill and drill more - HERE
Except multi-national corporations aren't "us". They have no aligned to the U.S. They will sell to anyone.
No these corporations are not us. They employ us & support us during our retirement through our 401k's. They create value.
And stop any repairs on you're place and see what happens.
Oh you're Betting on technology we know its never going to fail.
Seems that the pipeline will piss alot of people off so build away.
As for Mother Earth she will grow a daisy out of you're ass when you dead .past civilization are proof of this .
We've made it a bit farther than past civilizations. Just a bit.
You really think we are .we haven't even explored have of the planet
A.) half* and B.) unless the previous generations were waterborne (Atlantis anyone?) then I can say we are a bit more spread out and stable than all precious generations. Just a bit.
Correct you're spell check on precious. But we know there huge cities in the past .and when they used up or messed up their environment they where done and shit grew on top of them.we are k not special .
I can't have this discussion against this kind of speech. Learn how to speak coherently and I will gladly discuss this with you.
And to elaborate on a previous point the half of the planet we haven't explored? It's hundreds of miles beneath the sea.
Sorry. Typing isn't my strong point, but if you don't understand there where huge civilization that disappeared and now are covered up I can't help you with that. The ocean rises and falls Mother Earth can take care of herself .
And we still haven't explored all of dry land and it isn't nearly half .
You guys are nerds.
You think the earth will dye before you , than you're just awesome .
I can say with certainty we have explored well over 95% of dry land and if there were all these great civilizations, where are the remains? The artifacts? Did nothing of these civilizations survive? If every human just disappeared right now the ruins of our cities would last for eons.
And you point is you're cool araz?
And we are a global civilization. Yes there had been large civilizations like the Greeks, Romans, Aztecs, etc. but none of their civilizations reached near the level we have. We have cities whose population outnumbers the whole Roman Empire.
Oral your first comment was "Orly?". Look whose calling the kettle black.
You do know I'm right? Right?
Woah, creepy autocorrect. My precious comment was for araz, not oral.
You left out there where huge Native American civilization.but that's really doesn't matter all that matters if we mess up enough shit we will be next one to disappear. Or next climate change
Dude I'm not 8000 years old I'm still a teen you creeper.
And you still are getting beat by an 8th grader
You're from Florida . Y'all can't even count. So drink up and be happy.
Pretty sure Native Americans didn't have billions of unified people and ample enough technology to survive any natural disaster. We do. Bunkers for everyone!
A.) I'm from Indiana, you're from Texas, and he's from Florida so don't try to play the state card, B.) Araz it takes a lot more then saying you beat someone to actually do so, and C.) Are we going to try to have an intelligent debate or is this going to deteriorate into a troll thread.
Oh you're betting on technology we know its never going to fail . How the hell did we got here from building a stupid pipeline.
Remind me not to do 10 shots before posting next time . Dammit lol
Oh and where do ancient civilization go the next civilization wipes their marks clean . Example when the Taliban destroyed the big as statues.
I can't help but feel that if this is built the only spills that will happen will be because of sabotage by environmentalists. Or mate that's just me.
I know I'm simple minded and I can't see any Benefit from building a pipeline(jobs).Or refining the oil (jobs)or exporting the oil(tariffs).
Drill baby drill
Why not?, oil prices will go down isn't that what everybody wants
What? Another person who never researched the topic giving an uninformed opinion? That can't possibly happen again! Not on SoH!
What? Another crazy environmentalist? On this app? Never.
Ain't no inviromentalist I think it will be good for Americas oil
There are currently 2.3 million miles of oil & gas pipeline in the USA. Pipelines are being built every day. The only reason this one is controversial at all is because the State Dept has to approve if it crosses the Canadian border.
Once we build the pipeline, Obama will praise the construction workers by saying, "You didn't build that".