Generally speaking, do you think that political correctness has changed our society for the better or for the worse?
@gluxford1 Parts of it are good and parts are bad. You do appear to be focusing a bit much on the negative aspects.
For example, you keep mentioning the “milk issue,” which isn’t actually a real issue. In real life, have you ever been chastised for drinking white milk? I have not! 😂 None of my liberal friends would be so silly.
Argue about real issues and you will get farther.
That’s because the negative aspects outweigh the positive aspects. I have been chastised by lefties for saying Merry Christmas and for saying “Mr. and Mrs.”.
As for the “real issues” point, take that advice and give it to the folks on your side of the political aisle because they’ll need to get back to addressing those if they want to dig themselves out of their historic loss of power.
“That’s because the negative aspects outweigh the positive aspects. I have been chastised by lefties for saying Merry Christmas and for saying “Mr. and Mrs.”.”
I agree with you that it’s gone too far, in many cases.
I don’t celebrate Christmas, but I don’t care if my Christian friends wish me a Merry Christmas. I never heard of the “Mr. & Mrs.” issue. What’s supposed to be “wrong” about that?
Also, did those people chastise you in real life or on the Internet? People on the Internet don’t reflect reality, in my opinion.
“As for the “real issues” point, take that advice and give it to the folks on your side of the political aisle because they’ll need to get back to addressing those if they want to dig themselves out of their historic loss of power.”
Good point, except that I don’t have a “side of the aisle” at all. I vote either party, depending on the candidate. In recent years, I have probably voted more Republican, with the big exception being Trump. I can’t abide him!
It was in real life, not the internet.
What was the problem with Mr. & Mrs.? I’m curious, because I never heard that one.
They got offended because it “assumed heteronormativity”.
Ok, that’s really crazy!
Here’s my overall take on things. You may see it differently.
“Political correctness” is a strange term, anyway. It can mean anything from “don’t use racial slurs” to “don’t offend anybody, anywhere.”
I understand that it originated with liberal politics. However, with the “don’t offend anybody” meaning, I see it all over the political spectrum.
For example, we have the silliness over Starbucks cups. Last year’s green cups were supposed to be a “war on Christmas”? Really??!!! But, that’s every bit as dumb as the article about “white milk.”
The good thing is that it’s a minority of extremists on both sides that perpetuate silliness. I just try to ignore people who rail against milk OR who get upset over how a private company designs its cups OR who care about what holiday or Christmas greeting a person chooses.
Life is too short to stress over idiotic things like that, IMO.
I think you misunderstood the meaning behind why people didn’t like the green cups at Starbucks. It wasn’t because they were offended. It was because they were pointing out that it seemed to be a capitulation to the PC police on Starbucks’ part.
I didn’t misunderstand their protest, but I disagree on several counts ...
First of all, I don’t even see how green is any *less* of a Christmas color than red. I don’t celebrate Christmas, so I could be wrong. But, I always thought the Christmas “theme” was red and green.
Second, if Starbucks, for whatever reason, wants to choose whatever color and whatever design, so what? You can interpret it as “capitulating” (if, in fact, that was the reason) or you can recognize their corporate duty to maximize profits.
Third, OF COURSE, the protesters were offended. They turned something as trivial as a green Christmas coffee cup into a so-called “war on Christmas.”
Although I don’t celebrate Christmas, even *I* know it isn’t about coffee cups. It’s about the birth of Jesus, around 2000 years ago. If I was Christian, I think I would be more annoyed about the over-commercialization and losing track of the true meaning.
There were no protests. Just people pointing out the lunacy of Starbucks’ decision to get rid of the Christmas graphics on the cups so as not to offend anyone.
I thought I had sent this reply a few hour ago, but I did not.
I made a poor choice of words, when I called them “protestors.” I didn’t mean it in the sense of marching or a gathering or organized political protest. A better word choice would have been “complainers.” The rest of my comment stands.
The problem with excessive PC is what I think of as “making a mountain out of a molehill.”
That applies equally to:
* Milk is racist” (foolish fringe idea)
*Choice of holiday greeting (say what you want, I don’t care). People on *both*
sides get needlessly bent out of shape over this silliness.
* Corporate choice of coffee cup design (again, who cares?)
Here is an article that sums up my view of the Starbucks controversy. Please read it and tell me what you think.
Sorry, forgot the link ... www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/starbucks-coffee-cups-war-on-christmas/415029/
That link read like an angry leftist venting their outrage about people having a different opinion.
If you think that, I don’t think you read it very carefully. For example:
“There are many, many ways in which the erosion of an American Christian mono-culture has created fascinating, difficult challenges for Christians—see perspectives from the Southern Baptist leaders Russell Moore or Albert Mohler, for example. But coffee cups are not one of them. Rhetorical bluster about coffee cups distracts from the real, difficult questions of religious liberty and freedom of expression—including workplace hiring and discrimination, wedding-vendor services, or contraception insurance—and diminishes the seriousness of those questions by association.”
“Feuerstein’s challenge to “all great Americans and Christians around this great nation” to “take your own coffee selfie” is a silly social-media campaign. This is a situation all but defined by choices and freedom: the choice to buy coffee from Starbucks, the choice to facetiously trick baristas into saying something that aligns with Christian cultural preferences, even the choice to speak out against the company on social media. Coffee-cup outrage is flimsy when paired with real conflicts of conscience that have led to years-long lawsuits and businesses shutting down and significant public protests—and it is shameful in light of the violent persecution of Christians around the world.”
The worst he says is that it’s “silly” and “flimsy.” (See above quotes from the article.)
The erosion of American culture is precisely what we’re talking about here.
He said, “an American *Christian* culture.” Would it shock you to realize that my very *American* upbringing was not Christian?
We did not celebrate Christmas. Growing up in a Jewish family and Jewish neighborhood, going to a predominantly Jewish school, Christmas was never part of my cultural background. It didn’t make me less American, trust me.
But, don’t get me wrong. I actually enjoy the Christmas season now. I love to see my neighbors’ Christmas lights. I go to Christmas parties. I am amused by the Santa Claus at my local mall. I don’t care if people wish me Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays or Happy Chanukah.
However, I fail to see the problem when a coffee chain decides one year to make cups that represent my background better.
As the article says, “When businesses make the decision to express religiously neutral seasonal greetings, or decorate their stores with non-explicitly Christian holiday symbols, they are making a strategic business decision to try and appeal to a broad and diverse consumer base in the United States, a lot of which is not Christian or religious.”
America is a predominantly Christian culture, GA. It always has been, although the left hates that and would prefer to deny that. I had a very secular upbringing, but I still recognize that fact about our nation’s culture. The vast majority of Americans also still adhere to that religion.
I mostly agree with what you said there, but I still fail to see the big deal about coffee cups.
Growing up secular, I’m guessing that your family celebrated Christmas, in a secular way - Santa Claus, gifts, etc., but no Jesus. Please correct me, if I’m wrong.
There is no “war on Christmas.” It’s all around us and inescapable. And that’s really ok. But, don’t make a big deal about people who express a different opinion or companies that want to accommodate those other people.
We will probably have to agree to disagree. Anyway, I’m going to sleep now.
Have a nice evening. 😊
Better in some areas and worse in others. I don't think it should be acceptable in society to use the n word to address black people but I also don't think milk is racist.
A very reasonable response. 👍🏻
It's terrible, in so many ways that the users below have elaborated on.
Generally speaking, maybe worse, but not enough of it leads to disaster.
Better. It's just about showing respect.
For the most part it’s been a good thing. Not sure why we’re labeling things our mothers should have taught us as PC, like simple respect for others. And yes there are people who’s ass gets really offended when pc language isn’t used, but thankfully it’s not many. We only hear about because it causes outrage. I see nothing wrong with me saying “hello sir” and them saying “actually I identify as a woman” and me saying “oh, ok, thanks for letting me know ma’am”, instead of “we’ll I’m going to call you sir because biologically you’re a man and I don’t care how it makes you feel”. My mom would bitch slap me if I did that to someone, and really, why do I want to make them feel that way?
Did your mom teach you that milk is racist and that saying “Merry Christmas” is offensive? As for pronouns, if someone identifies as a plantation owner and demanded that everyone around him (especially black people) address him by the pronoun “massah”, would you call that person out on his delusions and tell him to seek help or would you play along with him and demand that everyone obey his wishes or be bitch slapped for disobeying the PC police?
As I said, there are people that go overboard with pc bullshit like your milk example, but that is very few people. Mom didn’t tell me that saying merry Christmas is offensive, and neither has anyone else. If someone asked me to call them massah, I’d politely decline. A simple “no thank you Jake” would do just fine, not me belittling him for asking me to do that.
No one is bitch slapping anyone for disobeying the pc police. My mom would bitch slap me for being a dick to another human.
You don’t have to be pc, but why not be nice?
Lmao are you really still going with the milk thing?
It’s ok if that article represents how he feels. I’m not discounting that. To me, it is a bit silly because I know that that is soooo few people that are like that, that I more than likely won’t ever run into one (there was a lot of that’s in that sentence. That.)
Glux obviously feels differently. I am curious if he has been verbally bitch slapped by some PC fanatic. It may be why he feels that way. I never have in my 45 years, but maybe he has.
Down below he was applying the article to all liberals.
I know he was. I read it. I’m hoping he doesn’t really feel that way and knows the majority isn’t like that, just like the majority of Catholic priests don’t fuck kids or the majority of conservatives aren’t racists. It’s that very small minority that fucks it up for us all.
Voc, I do feel that way because that has been my personal experience with liberals. You are one of the few exceptions to that rule. PC isn’t about being nice to people and not being a dick anymore. It’s about miserable people who want to drag the rest of society down with them by shoving their belief system down the throats of others. It’s rather cult-like in that if it’s questioned, you get labeled as a “dick” or “asshole” (kind of like they’re calling you a heretic against their church).
There are conservatives that would fit that bill too though. Although with them you then get labeled a snowflake or SJW or something equally stupid. Again though, it’s a small minority. Pretty much just here is the only time I ever get that, and I live in one of the most conservative towns on the planet.
The most absurd social phenomenon of my lifetime. It kills spoken and written discourse, unjustly ends careers, ruins reputations, and verges on thought control. It no longer has anything to do with the establishment of politeness and civility, if it ever did, but now is preoccupied with shutting up anyone and any idea that conflicts with the PC version of clonethink. One of the few positive aspects of Trump is his willingness to oppose it.
PC has caused a coarseness that was never there before and has become a divisive political vehicle to try and control the dialogue
Ascited in the 9/11 commission report, political correctness was a major cause for not taking actions which would have prevented the attacks.
For example, the flight attendant and counter-person who were suspicious of the attackers for their late, one-way, no checked luggage, cash-purchase of tickets... who were told by their supervisor not to question them (which was backed by corporate legal) for fear of offending them.
More or less, the better. There are clearly extremes where it's taken too far. But most people upset with "PC Culture" are just assholes upset that they can't be assholes without consequence. Usually, they're issues with it are frabicated hogwash.
😂🤣😭 Thanks Z, I️ needed a good laugh today and you delivered!
Mostly for the better, but there are certainly abundant examples of it being taken too far.
There are certainly examples of people taking political correctness too far, but most people that complain about PC culture are just upset people expect them not to be ***holes.
Saying “Merry Christmas” makes one an asshole? Drinking milk makes one an asshole? Working hard makes one an asshole?
Crying about NFL players kneeling makes you an asshoIe.
@thatguy, nobody’s crying over the petulant millionaires kneeling because they think they’re oppressed in their warped minds. We’re simply pointing out their disrespect, irony, and hypocrisy.
Spoken like an asshoIe
Who gets mad when you say merry Christmas? I swear you build things up in your head that nobody cares about. Just because Breitbart found an instance of somewhere, that doesn’t make it an actual issue.
Oh, poor @thatguy. You looked in the mirror again. 😂
And drinking milk? What are you even talking about? Obviously some alt-right article that went viral that, again, nobody actually cares about.
Conservatives love to play the victim.
WorstGoo, the left gets offended when you say “Merry Christmas” because it isn’t PC enough for them. It’s not just on Breitbart. I’ve seen it happen in person. They also get offended when you say “Mr. and Mrs.” and “It’s okay to be white”.
Actually Goo, it was a liberal from San Francisco who wrote an entire article about how milk offends her because it’s a “symbol of white supremacy”.
And @thatguy, I’m not playing a victim nor do I see myself as one. I’m just pointing out the facts while you spew playground trash talk. Nice try though. 😂
That milk thing is ridiculous. Even if that article is serious it doesn't represent the views of the left. Just because one person says something doesn't mean it represents the views of an entire side of the political spectrum. Also literally 99.9% of people are not offended by "Merry Christmas" I have never had someone be upset because I wished them a Merry Christmas. The whole war on Christmas thing is entirely fictional.
Glux- you are proving my point for me. I admitted some people took it too far, whereas you took an article by one person and attributed it to millions of people.
Yeah, I wish what you two were saying was true, but it honestly isn’t. The left has become consumed by PC craziness and those who dare to criticize it are labeled as “assholes” by PC puritans like WorstGoo. Sadly, it seems to have become a majority on the left. I’ve experienced this on both SOH and in public. And yes, there is a war on Christmas.
And Goo, its rather telling that you chose to go after me instead of going after the “racist milk” lunacy in the article above.
The fact is, folks on the left these days either perpetrate authoritarian PC lunacy or enable it via downplaying, denial, and/or simply ignoring it. You two fall into the latter category.
Saying the entire left is being consumed by PC craziness is like saying the entire right has been consumed by fascist nazis. Both sides have their extremes, but if you only look at extremes it gets a lot more difficult to cooperate.
Honestly though I think I hear people complaining about PC more than I hear people trying to make people be PC.
I haven’t seen one leftist condemn the authoritarian PC craziness that’s been going on lately. Most just excuse or ignore it. The right, on the other hand, has largely vocally condemned the neo-Nazi fringe.
So much for your PC civility thatguy
I condemn the PC demand that people worship the flag at sporting events.
Lol!!! Trying to alter history again Worst?
You can keep being narrow minded and look at the left as a bunch of social justice warriors if you want. As long as both sides view the other as completely outrageous nothing will get done in this country.
SJWs are the embodiment of today’s left.
You are entitled to your own opinion.
For the better.
Pleasantness is positive.
P.C. culture, however, which is taking the concept of political correctness to the extreme, and making an ideology out of is, has had quite the negative effect.
“Pleasantness” and political correctness don’t belong in the same sentence. Thought policing is not pleasant.
You're correct in regard to PC culture.
The concept of political correctness itself, though, when stripped of all the social connotations that people have built around it through their use of it, is the concept of not being offensive, which is not a bad concept.
To clarify: I may say PC things, but I won't say something solely because it's PC.
I fully agree that what PC has been built into is an utter cancer of society, but I don't think that's true of the core concept itself.
It's given very dissatisfied people leverage to control other, more satisfied people.
In a nutshell, yes.
@bower8899 this is why it has nothing to do with respect. It's about control and dominance.
I respectfully disagree. I'm sure a small amount of people are using it for that but for me and everyone I know it's just about being nice people.
Then why is it illegal in Canada not to use someone's preferred pronouns?
Because that doesn't sound very nice to me. It sounds domineering and authoritarian.
Saying somebody's preferred pronouns takes 2 seconds. There's no reason not to, it's just a dick move.
Being a dick shouldn't be illegal.
Also when they're absurd made up pronouns, it's even more authoritarian.
Harassing somebody for having a problem that frequently leads to suicide should though
Oh like how the media and SJWs harass men?
Men have pretty high suicide rates. Admittedly not 40% like transfolks (even after transition mind you).
That's no one's fault but mental illness.
Even if you believe it's a mental illness should shouldn't be going up and misgendering them, as I said above, they have high suicide rates.
“Misgendering” is not a thing and I don’t give a shit if you want to ignore biological science, but you’re not going to force me to do it.
Right, fuck em. They deserve to kill themselves.
“They have high suicide rates! 😩”
So do Alaskans. So do people who have clinical depression (including me). That does not make you a protected class deserving of special treatment. Grow a thicker skin.
If xer looks like a her and I call xhem "she", and xer kills themself over it, who is really at fault?
Yes, it fucking does. People with depression need help. These people need help. Ffs.
“Right. Fuck them! They deserve to kill themselves!”
Nobody said that except for you, bower. Stop being melodramatic because you’re embarrassing yourself. Go take a breather and come back to this conversation when you’re a little more calm and level-headed.
Feeding into their delusions is not helpful, bower.
In the words of the great anti-totalitarian Jordan Peterson;
"I'M NOT DOING IT!"
I'm done, if y'all want to keep being assholes to folks go ahead. I'm sorry you can't take a few seconds out of your day to make somebody else feel a little better about themselves
All of us here suffer with mental illness, but I'll be damned if someone calling me the wrong name makes me think I should off myself.
I identify as a character from Mad Men and I demand that you address me by the pronoun “sir”. Now go make me a sandwich, stewardess! 😂
Well said, Kamden!
I'm not about to go to jail for not letting someone control what I say. I LIVE IN AMERICA MOTHAFUCKAS!
AND I JUST ACHIEVED MY FINAL FORM: APACHE ATTACK HELICOPTER
I am glad you feel that way, but there have been times when one bad day has brought me to the brink of suicide. Maybe I'm "thin-skinned", but it's a problem I have and I don't believe I should be going around and worsening others problems.
If refusing to call a person “xe” worsens their problems, then the fault & problem lies at the feet of that offended person. They clearly have major psychological issues that need to be addressed and feeding into their delusions will only worsen the problem.
So you admit they have a problem and yet you say you would harass them anyways
That issue is something that needs to be worked out by a therapist, not somebody on the street.
We aren't even talking about harassment
Bower - harass them? Refusing to call them a certain pronoun is harassment now?
Harassment not necessarily but it's just a nice thing to do to call them by their preferred pronouns. Why not just be kind
Do you support the Pronouns Law?
Not in its current form
This user is currently being ignored
Significantly worse. One step closer to thought crimes....
Significantly for the worse. It’s made people too thin-skinned and too many Americans are walking on eggshells so as not to offend someone as a result. It’s slowly killing humor, cultural celebrations, and civil discourse. It just sucks the life and fun out of everything it touches. Political correctness is a scourge that must end, and hopefully Generation Z will lead us in that direction.
People showing basic respect to others is definitely a change for the better
Political correctness is not about “basic respect” these days. It’s become about shoving your belief system down other people’s throats while being offended over literally everything (Christmas, Thanksgiving, hard work, and milk being a few examples).
I am offended by what you just said!
I’m offended by the word offended! It’s tool of white supremacy!!!
Respect? In reference to what?