Do you criticize businesses for hiring accountants and lawyers to find “tax loopholes” (assume that Sarbane Oxley regulations, GAAP, and FASB or IFRS standards are followed)?
I criticize democrats who never met a tax they didn't like to impose on others for taking loopholes and deductions while driving around in their 6-figure cars telling everyone else their wealth should shared.
Did you know you can also pay more than what you owe? Who does that? Any Bernie followers out there...?
No, they pay plenty of taxes already. A little less isnt gonna hurt
That is their JOB. If its in the tax code, you're suppose to fill it out that way, even if it benefits you
They are there for all taxpayers use. Not everyone can afford to be in that bracket.
Lol no it's the smart thing to do. Microeconomics 101 the only goal of a firm is to maximize profits.
No. I hire them for my personal taxes too.
No, do we criticize individuals from using deductions and credits found in the code to their advantage? Do we criticize those who use the child tax credit, or the earned income tax credit, or the standard deduction for that matter to reduce their tax burden? No, there is no difference. Using loopholes legally is the same thing using different tools.
Yes, if they keep telling me the govt needs more money and they take deductions.
Did you know you can also pay more than what you owe? Who does that? Any Bernie followers out there...?
While it's dishonest, it's smart.
Is it dishonest?
not dishonest one bit
What’s dishonest about following laws?
Corporate leaders who do not find ways to save their company money should be fired for failing in their fiduciary responsibilities.
No, but as a value investor, I engage in a lot forensic accounting to try to see through the loopholes used by financial statement auditors.
And while I might not criticize them, my opinion of Big 4 auditors worsens and worsens with time. The shit they pull, especially in their Asian offices, should be better scrutinized and regulated.
No I do it myself as well.
Yes, corporations make large donations and hire lobbyists to persuade congressmen to lower their taxes and create tax loopholes. Then they hire the lawyers and accountants to help them utilize those loopholes. It is a legal form of bribery that the American middle class has been victimized by for far too long and the new tax plan is just the latest version of screwing over the American middle class. We are just all too dumb to see it.
As long as they're not evading taxes illegally, it's just smart.
Of course not. They have to make sure to comply with applicable laws or they’d be fined or raided.
No, I criticize the government for allowing such loopholes.
How do you define “loophole”? Which “loopholes” do you wish to remove?
How about all of them lol
That’s kinda the problem. We wouldn’t know how to identify what a loophole is in order to remove all of them.
How about just end all corporate deductions and cut the rate by 10%
You would have some very unhappy people. Each sector has different obstacles. As a result, many corporations would outsource jobs because they couldn’t be competitive domestically without deductions that are on the books.
I particularly despise tax holidays.
1. Deductions are not loopholes
2. Exemptions and credits are not loopholes
3. Pretty much anything the media calls a loophole is not a loophole
4. Eliminating deductions for business would be disastrous. The way its set up now, they only pay tax on profits, which makes the most sense. You should only be taxed on money you earn
Keeping your money in a tax haven seems like a bit of a loophole to me.
I assume there is a certain law that allows your ambiguous description that you don’t agree with?
These "tax havens" are businesses pushing profits to a foreign country with lower tax to shelter it from the high us tax rates. As long as it doesn't reenter the us, it doesn't get taxed. Perfectly legal
I don't know if it's a specific law, but I remember George Bush lowered the corporate tax rate from 35% to ~5% for a bit, and all the corporations brought their money from the offshore tax haven. We should be taxing these companies more for money that they hold offshore to avoid paying taxes. I have read articles that suggest Trump is planning a similar tax holiday at some point.
I never said it wasn't legal, Farmer. I said I don't like it
To me, calling it a loophole is basically saying its illegal.
Yeah I've heard trump is considering the same thing. I don't support the idea of taxing money held overseas, if the government wants their cut from it, they can make it reasonable to bring it back in
All loopholes are legal that’s why they are loopholes...
The further I advance along in my accounting knowledge the more I have a problem with the term “loophole.” How does one determine what constitutes a loophole? By some definitions that I hear, “For AGI” deductions just might be a “loophole” according to some.
There’s truly no such thing as a loophole. It’s just the law as it stands.
Yeah - that’s my overall point.
There are cases when people use creative language or circumstances to usurp the obvious intent, but to your point, if you're the company and you can do it legally, you have a duty to find every possible advantage. I think tax laws should be simplified to avoid just those sort of issues. "Loopholes" exist because the tax codes are telephone book thick in this country.
Exactly. Politicians don’t always pass the laws that intend to pass or thought they were passing. However, the rest of us still have to follow those laws to avoid harm from the government.
@political I didnt know you were an accounting major. Your coming to the same conclusions I did last year when I took my first semester of tax
Yeah - Farmer, I am currently taking Income Tax this semester in my undergraduate. As you know, we focus on 1040s, so my knowledge of corporate taxation is limited.
Can't criticize them. If you want to end loopholes, the best way to do it is to get rid of deductions and to implement a flat tax.
If they have enough money to hire the lawyer they can pay their fucking taxes.
All major corporations hire lawyers and accountants to advise businesses on how to save money. By doing so, corporations save money. It’s irrelevant to decide whether or not a business can afford to pay more.
More importantly, should the Tax Code ever be so difficult as to require the services of a ‘professional’?
No. Businesses should just pay the percent.
I don’t see a feasible alternative to eliminating the necessity for professionals as it relates to corporate tax. 1040’s could be simplified though.
Bower, even when the law allows them to pay less?
No, I'm saying simplify the tax code so the can't.
I assume that you are talking about corporate taxes. Yes - those are extremely complex. Nevertheless, what would you like to see simplified?
Perhaps, I jumped the gun a little. Is it fair to conclude that you do not blame corporations for taking any tax benefit that is legally allowed?
Its a combination of blame between the government and the business
And less loopholes, less options for tax dodgin. The only option for tax deductions should be donations to charity.
For corporations I mean
Bower ... you do realize that corporate taxes are just the cruel double taxation promoted by leftists, right?
Corporations do NOT absorb taxes, they simply pass them on to consumers as a cost of doing business. Only low info leftists are unable to see thru that disgusting ruse.
Then raise taxes on the rich. We need the money so our people don't starve.
Bower, you don’t support student loan deductions, medical expense deductions, moving expense deductions, traveling expense deductions, child tax credit, state and local itemized deductions? How about standard deductions and standard additional deductions?
Bower ... why is raising taxes your only option? Why not hold the government responsible for the horrible waste of money? Why only the “rich”? Why not tax the poor?
Most importantly, who is starving in the US? The poorest in the US have far more than the middle class in many other countries.
Political, I specified that was referring to corporations and not individuals.
Think, America has a lot of problems. We need to fix them. I agree there is waste in the government, but we still need more money to do things like pay off the debt. And we shouldn't tax the poor because they are living paycheck to paycheck, they need the money. Millionaires don't.
You must love outsourcing jobs then
If businesses are leaving and it's causing a significant decrease in jobs, we should just nationalize the industry.
How would that work?
Bower ... who are you to determine who does and does not “need” their belongings? It’s sad that you are blind to the irony. You would steal from others to give to a wasteful and irresponsible government rather than forcing that government to first be responsible with what it receives.
We could start by eliminating totally unnecessary and unconstitutional bureaucracies, like the inept Departments of Education, Interior and Health & Human Services and massively trimming the bloated EPA. We could move on to the massive fraud in Social Security.
You think that the government operates more efficiently than businesses?
Again, I'm not denying the government is corrupt and inefficient, and that is a problem that needs fixing.
Businesses are run for profit, at least the government could run it to actually help people.
What would be the check on the government?
Bower ... maybe an analogy would help you see your folly. Your proposal to raise taxes as a “solution” to the problem is like demanding that we install sprinklers in the building while it is totally engulfed in a fire during a torrential rain storm.
I get that you’re young and you think you know better, but fact is that government is never the answer. Corporate profits are THE ONLY thing that allows leftists to rail against our system. Every time a government has taken over the means of production, the first thing to disappear is innovation, then incentive to work and finally all end up in shared poverty. Look at the latest social Democrat “experiment” from Comrade Chavez. How are the Venezuelan people, a proud people with abundant natural resources, doing?
A better example would be Bolivia, which is doing quite well, thank you
Bower ... nice try, but you fail again. I get that you’ve read books that tell you things, but the truth is hard to come by. I have a sea friend who’s spent her life in La Paz that disagrees with your conclusion.
... a dear friend ...
I’ll wait for an answer to my question.
I would prefer independent agencies to government , political
Are you satisfied with raising taxes in order to accomplish the dramatic spending increase?
Bower ... you didn’t respond on the response to your silly assertion about Bolivia.
Here’s what our CIA says about the current state of things in Bolivia ...
Bolivia ranks at or near the bottom among Latin American countries in several areas of health and development, including poverty, education, fertility, malnutrition, mortality, and life expectancy. On the positive side, more children are being vaccinated and more pregnant women are getting prenatal care and having skilled health practitioners attend their births. Bolivia's income inequality is the highest in Latin America and one of the highest in the world. Public education is of poor quality, and educational opportunities are among the most unevenly distributed in Latin America, with girls and indigenous and rural children less likely to be literate or to complete primary school. The lack of access to education and family planning services helps to sustain Bolivia's high fertility rate - approximately three children per woman. Bolivia's lack of clean water and basic sanitation, especially in rural areas, contributes to health problems.
Yes political, I am
And your source is the CIA? Lol
And Bolivia is a shithole. But it's modernizing and developing incredibly quickly
Even on the middle class and the poor?
Bower ... I get that you’ve never read a critical piece. You’re welcome to refute any/all of the CIA assertions.
I’ll also pause to point out your hypocrisy. When the 14 “intelligence community” confirm your bias against Mr Trump, you’re happy to buy it without a second thought, but when the CIA specifically shares info that doesn’t confirm your bias you discredit it? Yep, you’re a leftist!
Refute the assertions with proof!
To be fair Think, Bower is just in High School. She hasn’t had the opportunity to learn how economics work yet.
We should be patient and promote critical thinking. I was a young stubborn mule a few years ago when I first joined SOH.
Political ... I have no problem with the young and inexperienced, it’s the clueless arrogance that I have no patience with.
I respect your views and will cut Bower some slack.
Oh - don’t get me wrong. She can be quite arrogant.
As usual think, you've dissolved to simply insulting me instead of debating
I don't think I'm arrogant. Stupid maybe, but not arrogant. I am willing to listen to what you have to say. Also, I graduated high school last year.
Bolivia, as I mentioned above, isn't a great place, as I mentioned above. But it's rapidly approving thanks to a social democratic system.
And no, political. I am for heavily progressive tax system.
I don’t think that you are stupid. In this heavily progressive system, how in the world could you possibly just tax the rich in order to pay for these new industries that represents billions of dollars?
Bower ... I agree with Political, you are arrogant. I was very even keeled with you until you started eight the idiocy about Bolivia — a country that you clearly know little about. You arrogantly asserted that it was better for some reason that you chose not to explain. I showed you dispassionate facts from the CIA and again you arrogantly mocked those facts without sharing a shred of evidence to refute it.
Now you want to play the victim? Grow up, and then come on back. You were disingenuous from the beginning.
I treated you with respect to start, in spite of our other interactions which have led to the same outcome.
You prove yet again that naive and arrogant leftists can’t defend their ridiculous positions and when challenged simply assume the victim position.
The top 1% own almost 50% of the wealth. It will be enough.
Think, because I haven't changed my views to match yours, you assume I am not listening to you. I am. You are simply wrong, in my opinion. That does not make me blind.
How the hell am I playing the victim here?
If you tax the 1% 100%, you would get 1 trillion dollars. You sure would be discouraging innovation on your desperate attempt to make the world fit into your cookie cutter worldview.
My cookie cutter world view is making sure nobody goes hungry or sick.
Bower ... you suggested that I’m insulting you when I present facts and you present nothing. If you want to debate then show how my position is not correct. You’ve shown nothing.
Bower ... your approach is leaving veterans homeless while providing homes for illegal aliens.
The fuck are you even talking about. I mentioned nothing about either of those things
Bower ... I bet you think the vulgar language makes your statement sound almost credible, right?
Think. This is why I don't like talking to you.
Bower ... you’re the one who went off half cocked talking about people going hungry, not me. Now you want to complain about the distraction.
If you can’t be accountable for your tangents, don’t interject them.
No - it’s not like the government is a great charity organization.
No. People hire agencies like H&R Block to do the same thing for them.