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gunluvr November 28th, 2017 2:16am

Should a company that forbids its employees,and contracted security guards from carrying any form of weapon, (not even a pocketknife), be held financially liable if their building is attacked by terrorists and people are killed or injured ?

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ladyniner81 no hope for humanity
11/29/17 6:29 pm

So who's getting arrested if a gun toting patriot shoots up a church? The pastor?

thebarr
11/28/17 10:18 am

Absolutely.

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Diogenes FreeMeBe
11/28/17 6:59 am

Yes. It's akin to placing English Bobbies in your building. "Stop! I say! Don't give me to say it again or you'll be in trouble!"

bower8899 ...
11/28/17 5:05 am

Should a company that does be held responsible if an employee uses a weapon to attack somebody?

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/28/17 5:09 am

See my comment to Xzach below....rules that say a person can’t carry in the office would NOT prevent someone from bringing a gun into the office ...

thebarr
11/28/17 10:18 am

No, the law-breaking employee should be (and is) liable.

xxxceo Nationalist
11/28/17 2:42 am

No. The less regulation the better. If an employee doesn’t feel safe he should quit.

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
11/27/17 11:41 pm

Only if you are going to hold them similarly liable in the far more likely event of workplace dumbassery escalating into workplace violence. And if you hold them liable for one armed idiot shooting an innocent bystander (or probably more likely) himself if they did allow unnecessary weapons on the property. Strictly based on history and math, guns are better left at home in the vast majority of cases.

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KojimaStudios
11/27/17 8:14 pm

In my opinion, the terrorists should be the ones liable. They’re the ones committing the crime.

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thebarr
11/28/17 10:19 am

They are liable. But I am prevented from effectively defending myself due to the company’s misguided policy. Doesn’t my lack of defense count for something?

xzach next door to you
11/27/17 8:02 pm

My office is a gun free zone and we have security locks and all employees have security passes to access the building. We also have security guards in the campus. Arming the employees would not make me any safer.

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gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/27/17 8:07 pm

Do employees hold the door open for folks entering at the same time without them badging in ? We see that often at the office I work at , and folks get written up for it ... I would have no issue with trained and licensed folks carrying around me, I would feel safer ...

xzach next door to you
11/27/17 8:16 pm

No, I haven’t seen anyone hold the door for someone, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. I personally don’t feel any safer around people who have license to carry. In the work places, where I have worked I think employees with guns is are a risk. A disgruntled employee with license to carry is just like a terrorist if he/she wants to shoot up the office. Is the employer responsible for that situation?

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/28/17 4:40 am

So a rule that says employees can’t carry in the office is going to stop someone intent on evil from bringing a gun to the office and killing people ? Wouldn’t you feel safer knowing if that were to occur, someone there might be able take out the shooter before he kills more people ? This is the one thing most gun control advocates miss...they assume that criminals will obey the law ...they don’t !!!!

xzach next door to you
11/28/17 7:13 am

No, just because some office employees can carry a gun doesn’t make me feel safer. The majority of people killed are killed by someone they know, not a random stranger.

Do you think everyone should carry a gun?

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/28/17 7:18 am

I have no issue with law abiding properly trained and vetted persons carry a firearm... it’s their choice whether to do that though ...

xzach next door to you
11/28/17 7:27 am

The Las Vegas mass murderer was a law abiding citizen, I think? Until he decided to kill 58 people. You just don’t know who is evil and who is not. Arming every citizen doesn’t make us any safer.

I personally don’t carry but I’m not against those who do. However I don’t live my life in fear either.

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/28/17 7:54 am

So every law abiding person who carries is a potential mass murderer ??

If you research the actual statistics , CHL holders are MORE law abiding than police officers ...

xzach next door to you
11/28/17 8:44 am

All the statistics in the world don’t change the fact that most people are murdered by someone they already know.

Thanksgiving in Richmond Va a youth pastor murders his entire family of 3 with a handgun. Does this mean we should ban guns. No! Does this mean the entire family should have been strapped? No!

My point is you just don’t know what will happen or when. If we all walked around living in fear more people would be dead from violence using the lame excuse, I felt threatened.

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/28/17 9:29 am

Don’t know where you live, but living in Texas, I take comfort in the fact that many folks carry here ...

thebarr
11/28/17 10:25 am

xzach, you shouldn’t feel threatened by CCW holders who are carrying. If someone is disgruntled and wants to shoot up the office, a lack of CCW permit will not stop him. A “gun free zone” won’t stop him. And if he’s an employee then he can get right in through those badged doors.

The only way that a CCW holder makes you less safe is if that screened, law abiding person suddenly flies off of the handle, and starts shooting up people for no good reason; but would cool down on the drive home to get the gun (i.e. he is only a danger if he has instant access to a firearm). As far as I can tell this virtually never happens. Previous law abiding citizens who kill (such as the Vegas murderer) planned their murderous sprees and did not need a CCW permit to cause damage.

Alcerus fascist
11/27/17 7:58 pm

You think Mr. Mall Cop is gonna stop an IED and guys with AK's and a deathwish? Ha

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/27/17 8:00 pm

Good point...but it is a layer of security (although weak) that could warn folks and call 911...

Alcerus fascist
11/27/17 8:02 pm

I think it would be different for a "run of the mill" active shooter versus a trained goon squad. The establishment should be held liable in the event of some guy walking in and shooting up the place.

DJ13
11/27/17 7:56 pm

Should a company that allows guns in their business be held responsible in the same scenario?

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DJ13
11/27/17 7:59 pm

Then neither should the company that bans them....

thebarr
11/28/17 10:28 am

Of course they should be. The company that banned them prevented me from defending myself. If they banned seatbelts and I got in a car wreck then they should be liable as well.

Any family member of a CCW permit holder who was injured or killed should be able to sue if the company banned guns, because the company’s actions prevented their loved one from being able to effectively defend themselves.

DJ13
11/28/17 10:38 am

Then so should those that "allowed" the gun in that the criminal used. Don't be hypicritical....

thebarr
11/28/17 11:04 am

Agreed. If a criminal is carrying a gun then by definition it’s not allowed. If they ask the business if they may carry a gun illegally and the business grants permission, then they should be liable.

“Gun free zones” don’t stop criminals, they just carry the guns right in past the magical gun free force fields (oh, wait, those don’t exist).

They do stop CCW holders, as CCW holders are law abiding and are forced by law not to carry.

If a business’ policy allows a criminal to have a gun and the gun causes injury then hold the business liable. If it forces a CCW not to carry and his lack of gun causes him to be injured then the business should be liable. Fair?

DJ13
11/28/17 11:11 am

The person may not have a criminal background, if the company "allows" anyone to bring a weapon on premises and that person injures or kills someone, that company is just as liable (or not) as much as the company that bans weapons on premises. Any argument against that is hypicriticl. Plain and sumple....

thebarr
11/28/17 11:22 am

Not true. A company that is not a “gun free zone” does NOT allow criminals to carry guns. Legal CCW are the only people allowed to carry. Having a sign that says “Guns for Legal CCW only” would be redundant; all businesses are like that unless they post “gun-free” signs. Their action has NOT given permission or allowed any criminal to carry guns.

In contrast a business that is a “gun-free zone” has taken actions that have actively disarmed CCW holders.

This is really a very simple difference that any reasonable person can see.

DJ13
11/28/17 11:24 am

Again , I said not a "criminal" until they decide to kill. I now know you are a hypocrite. Have a nice day....

thebarr
11/28/17 11:25 am

If someone brings a bomb into a store and blows it to pieces, should the store be liable for not having a sign that makes it a “bomb-free zone”? Of course not. All businesses are bomb-free according to the law. All businesses are similarly gun-free for non-CCW holders.

thebarr
11/28/17 11:28 am

Any person who will kill will ignore a “gun-free” sign. So the gun free zone won’t stop them, nor does a lack of one give them permission. If you don’t understand this then you are an idiot. So you’re either an idiot due to lack of understanding of a simple fact, or trolling by calling me a hypocrite. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with the latter.

DJ13
11/28/17 11:34 am

I understand perfectly. Either both companies are liable or neither is. I stand by anyone who believes otherwise is a hypocrite. We are either going to blame the criminal or not in both scenarios. In fact, if in both instances, if both are legally allowed to have a gun, only one is breaking a rule/law by entering the business.... So again have a nice day...

Uberexciter Tennessee
11/27/17 7:55 pm

The dmv's in Florida have armed state troopers at their locations. At least the ones in browsed county did.

Uberexciter Tennessee
11/27/17 7:56 pm

Dang it. I put this in the wrong spot.

44YY Boston, MA
11/27/17 7:26 pm

Should I be blamed if I am mugged and do not carry a gun?

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/27/17 7:31 pm

Not the same situation ... that’s your personal nap choice ...what I am asking is does an employer have any responsibility for the safety of its unarmed employees and security personnel ? The employer chooses to create a “gun free zone”...should they be held responsible for that choice ?

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/27/17 7:32 pm

Don’t know why spell check added “nap” ?

44YY Boston, MA
11/27/17 7:34 pm

As far as I am aware guns are not allowed in the dmv. If someone decides to shoot up the dmv (definitely not out of the question) is it their fault? Not at all

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/27/17 7:37 pm

In my opinion, It would really depend on if the employer (in your case the DMV) made any effort at all to secure the property (Security guards etc)...

Uberexciter Tennessee
11/27/17 7:57 pm

The dmv's in Florida have armed state troopers at their locations. At least the ones in browsed county did.

44YY Boston, MA
11/27/17 8:01 pm

Up here they’ve got nothing besides the occasional cop wandering around getting his registration renewed

gunluvr NOT a Gun Free Zone
11/27/17 8:08 pm

In Texas, the driver license offices have a State Trooper present when they are open ...

thebarr
11/28/17 10:30 am

I’m with gunluvr. If a company bans guns then it’s their responsibility to secure the premises with armed guards, metal detectors, etc. Otherwise they should be liable if a CCW holder is attacked.