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mark4 November 14th, 2017 1:18pm

We're at the low end of the current sunspot cycle and there are lots of record breaking low temperatures around the world. Correlation?

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mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 4:34 pm

The millions of acres I talked about is accounting for replanting. That's purely forest that is cleared and developed into something other than forest. In prehistoric times there was a lot more CO2 in the atmosphere and it was significantly warmer. That's why plant life thrived and the dominant animals were reptiles. Climate change most certainly wouldn't wipe out all life but it could easily kill off or at the very least displace a large amount of humans.

mark4
11/15/17 4:45 pm

Wrong place but then, wrong message.

Diogenes FreeMeBe
11/15/17 2:19 am

But of course! Other planets have low surface temps also.

shygal47 Florida east coast
11/14/17 1:41 pm

Correlation only if the lower temps ALWAYS occur during the low end of the sun spot cycle.

mark4
11/14/17 7:44 pm

100% or nothing?

Diogenes FreeMeBe
11/15/17 2:20 am

Seriously, shygal? Logical thinking is required for this exercise.

shygal47 Florida east coast
11/15/17 7:56 am

Ok guys ... only if there is a PROPENSITY of data supporting that conclusion. Better??
.

Diogenes FreeMeBe
11/15/17 2:22 pm

It even sounds more scientific...statistically speaking.

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/14/17 7:19 am

Of course not because only humans can control the temperature. That giant fireball in the sky has nothing to do with temperatures.
Right liberals?

Reply
mitchman399 Oregon
11/14/17 10:02 am

I don't think anyone thinks the sun doesn't play a role in the weather.

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/14/17 12:28 pm

Stoney, Liberals think Gods’s not in control, rather, man is, that’s why they keep tweeking the temperatures to get the data to support their speculations in a giant circle of blowing smoke up each other’s rears๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ฎ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ณ๐Ÿ’จ๐Ÿ˜ณ

mitchman399 Oregon
11/14/17 12:44 pm

God may be in control, but to say humans have no effect on Earth is just wrong. There's over 7 billion of us on this rock that isn't really that big. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that says God will fix the Earth if we destroy it.

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/14/17 12:56 pm

I didn’t say humans don’t effect the earth I’m saying they don’t control the climate.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/14/17 1:00 pm

I guess, but humans can still have a negative impact on the climate. It's not like the Earth's climate is invincible.

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/14/17 1:29 pm

I’m saying the same thing as Stoney, their is a lot more to climate change than the earth’s inhabitants, backwards, kinda like the tail wagging the dog ๐Ÿ•๐Ÿ”š

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/14/17 1:43 pm

If we are in the middle of flooding rains and I go pour a cup of water into a river, my cup of water didn’t cause the flood.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/14/17 2:41 pm

That may be true one cup doesn't make that big of difference, but 7.6 billion cups being poured out every day would result in a pretty big flood.

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/14/17 3:01 pm

CO2 makes up .04% of the atmosphere.

Which is why they never say that. Instead you here silly things like “ billions of tons” etc.

The Earth is greening because of the extra CO2. More CO2 will be what saves humans.

Plants grow faster, produce more, and use less water doing it.

Did you know the more CO2 you put into the atmosphere the weaker it gets?

Everything you believe about climate change is based on predictions of models that have never been correct. Not based on facts and data.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/14/17 3:19 pm

Yes CO2 makes up only about 0.04% of the atmosphere. The problem isn't that the atmosphere will become mostly CO2 the problem is that the excess CO2 will cause an imbalance in the Earth's climate.

CO2 is what plants need to produce energy. You are 100% correct on that. The issue is plants can only take in so much CO2 and process it. We produce Carbon Dioxide at much faster rate through burning fossil fuels. The plants can't keep up with us and that resorts in carbon sinks occurring in the atmosphere and in the ocean as well. To make matters worse the world loses about 18 million acres of forest each year to deforestation making the work load for plants even higher.

The Carbon Dioxide build up results in heat being trapped in the Earth's atmosphere. This isn't based on predictions and models either. If we look back the last several hundred years there is a clear relation for a rise in average world temperatures and the increased production of CO2.

mark4
11/14/17 7:52 pm

There is NO indication plants can't keep up with CO2 production.

Temperatures rise first and then CO2 goes up. It's simple. Organic molecules oxidize faster at higher temperatures. They burn faster. They release carbon faster. Always has happened, always will. Destroying western civilization won't change it but will kill one hell of a large number of people.

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/14/17 8:11 pm

At a lot of big greenhouses they pump CO2 inside for the plants.

Why do you think they do that?
Hint, it isn’t to keep them warm.

Look at the last hundred years? At what? There is nothing strange about it.

Every year when the leaves fall off of the trees it gets colder.
Do you also believe that the leaves falling off the trees is what causes the cold?

mitchman399 Oregon
11/14/17 8:12 pm

The levels of CO2 are rising so that's a bit of a sign they can't keep up. Plus it's reasonable to assume they aren't able to convert an infinite amount of CO2 into Oxygen. Animals can't terraform a planet full of oxygen to create s balance of oxygen and carbon dioxide.

The idea that temperature causes the increase in CO2 doesn't really make sense. There's a huge spike in Carbon Dioxide right around the time when humans started producing it in large amounts.

The Earth's climate does naturally change, but the changes we are seeing in the modern era are not what they should be. Earth follows a pattern of heating and cooling, but right now there is excessive heating and no cooling when we are long over due.

No one is asking for the destruction of western civilization. All we need to do is invest in greener technologies. And be aware of the impact we have. I don't think that will cause society to crumble.

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/14/17 8:14 pm

Do you also believe that the leaves falling off of the trees is the cause of the cold?

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/14/17 8:17 pm

Long over due? For what?

Who makes up these rules for Mother Nature and tells her when things are supposed to happen?

mark4
11/14/17 8:24 pm

DOESN'T MAKE SENSE? I TOLD YOU THE WHY AND HOW OF IT!
๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

mark4
11/14/17 8:28 pm

I have a test for you.

Take two stalks of celery. Put one in the fridge and one in a pan on a hot stove. Let's see which one turns into carbon first.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/14/17 9:22 pm

๐Ÿ˜…๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿ˜…๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿ˜…๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿ˜…๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿ˜…๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿคฃ

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 1:33 am

So, CO2 is pumped into greenhouses because plants need CO2 to perform photosynthesis. That being said CO2 traps heat. There are lab experiments where you can see for yourself that CO2 stops heat from moving through it. A greenhouse full of CO2 would be warmer than a green house full of pure oxygen.

You can look back at what the climate was hundreds of years ago and see that there was less CO2 and get an idea of what the temperature was like. The Earth cycled pretty regularly between cooling and heating. You are able to get this data through examining ice cores and tree rings. But I know you and hundreds of years based on tree rings and ice cores sketches you out. The good news is we can look back just to the 1940's and see a big spike in Carbon Dioxide produced by humans that increase at a similar rate as the temperature.

Also you are confusing weather with climate. Yes you can still have cold days and seasons even though climate changing is occurring.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 1:37 am

Climate change is about the world's average temperature, not how the weather changes from day to day.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 1:40 am

Mark I 100% agree when you hear something that is living or living it produces CO2. Fossil Fuels were once living things and when we burn them it releases CO2 into the atmosphere.

mark4
11/15/17 4:08 am

Done with the experiment yet?

mark4
11/15/17 4:29 am

Rising CO2 levels don't indicate plants can't keep up with it. It means CO2 leads plant growth. Ya gotta have more for the plants to respond.

Just like more heat leading and causing more CO2 production.

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/15/17 4:44 am

Mark & Mitch, please continue your discussions, they are both๐Ÿค”instructive & thought๐Ÿคฏprovoking, which is the best of what SOH should be๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/15/17 5:53 am

“You can look back at what the climate was hundreds of years ago and see that there was less CO2 and get an idea of what the temperature was like.”

Ok. But that does absolutely no good since CO2 doesn’t control the temperature.
CO2 lags behind temperature all through history. Never the other way around.
We have also been warming since the last ice age.
Cold kills not the warmth. Winter is coming.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 11:25 am

There's millions of acres of deforestation each year, so we aren't really gaining the extra plant life that you are hoping for. The way the Carbon Cycle works when there is excess carbon in the environment it is stored in atmosphere. Plants are great and will filter it out some, but it's unrealistic to think they will completely balance the atmosphere no matter how much Carbon Dioxide we produce.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 11:32 am

Gotta get that game of thrones reference in. First Carbon Dioxide traps heat. You can find YouTube videos of lab experiments that show this. Heat is absorbed by the Carbon Dioxide and isn't able to leave Earth. Second if CO2 is a result of a temperature increase then when does the temperature of earth suddenly start increasing when humans begin to industrialize? And then why does it continue to increase at a rate similar to the amount of fossil fuels we burn? Burning fossil fuels produces CO2. Humans burn a lot of fossil fuels. That CO2 by product is store in the atmosphere, which is a Carbon sink. CO2 traps the heat from the sun in our atmosphere, which causes the temperature to rise.

mark4
11/15/17 4:16 pm

"There's millions of acres deforested each year...."
That's a curious half-truth.
There's millions of acres of trees planted each year too, and those terrible humans actually put out forest fires that once would have ravaged much larger areas. (The horror!)
The way the carbon cycle works is that heat causes CO2 to be released into the atmosphere from where it is stored by plants in the process of photosynthesis.
In the distant past there was far more atmospheric CO2 and much more plant life in response to it. No runaway temperatures, no disaster. The amount people produce is tiny when compared to the ancient record.

mark4
11/15/17 4:23 pm

Then you give another half-truth.
CO2 traps heat, but is not the greenhouse gas with the greatest effect. Further, as already noted, the effect of each addition of CO2 is neither exponential nor linear but logarithmic. Each addition of CO2 is less effective at holding heat than the last, so THE SKY IS FALLING crowd, those who aren't evil, are just stupid.

And I remind you again, heat leads CO2 release, not the other way around.

mark4
11/15/17 4:26 pm

We can do this as long as you'd like.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 4:35 pm

The millions of acres I talked about is accounting for replanting. That's purely forest that is cleared and developed into something other than forest. In prehistoric times there was a lot more CO2 in the atmosphere and it was significantly warmer. That's why plant life thrived and the dominant animals were reptiles. Climate change most certainly wouldn't wipe out all life but it could easily kill off or at the very least displace a large amount of humans.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 4:38 pm

There are greenhouse gases that trap heat even more effectively than CO2, but CO2 is the one that humans produce a massive amount of and the easiest one to reduce. If CO2 a gas that humans produce burning fossil fuels that can also trap heat isn't warming the Earth than what is? You claim that CO2 is a by product of the earth warming, but where do you purpose this warming is coming from?

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/15/17 4:41 pm

mark4, your posts on environment we’re stellar๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป โ˜‘๏ธ theyCheckmated the discussionโ—๏ธ

mark4
11/15/17 4:47 pm

It comes from (gasp) THE SUN!

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 4:48 pm

How are his points more effective than mine? Science backs mine up. I'm not really sure where this points are coming from other than assumptions about how nature works.

mark4
11/15/17 4:49 pm

Thanks shippy bit it isn't as if Stoney isn't involved.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 4:49 pm

Why would the sun start heating up the Earth more than it used to?

mark4
11/15/17 4:49 pm

My points are logical. Hell, I've had to drag you into admitting facts.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 4:50 pm

And why did the Sun start heating up the Earth more right when humans started becoming industrialized?

mark4
11/15/17 4:52 pm

It happens in cycles. You may at this point want to check out the correlation with sunspots. More solar storms=more solar wind=fewer X-rays=less cloud cover=lower albedo=higher heat.

mark4
11/15/17 4:53 pm

It didn't.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 5:06 pm

The Sun Spot thing is interesting, but it doesn't look like that is the cause. Yes it causes some warming, but according to everything I've seen on the topic the sun spots go through a cycle that's about 11 years. Earth has been warming fairly consistently since the 1920's there should be periods in that time where the sun spot cycle allows the Earth to cool not to progressively get warmer and warmer.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/15/17 5:07 pm

And also you can't say it just didn't start around that time. Humans were around and recorded data. You can see how the temperature rising starting in the early 20th century.

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/15/17 5:50 pm

“then when does the temperature of earth suddenly start increasing when humans begin to industrialize?”

It didn’t. There has been a steady warming since the last ice age. Lucky for us.

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/15/17 6:04 pm

“Earth has been warming fairly consistently since the 1920's”

Actually no. Where do you find your “facts”?
There was warming through the 20’s, 30’s, and until, if I remember right, the mid 40’s. And then there was cooling until around 1980. And 1979 was when the satellite record started. Which at the peak of cooling showed more ice in the arctic.
After that, again, there was warming.
If you want to see crazy droughts, hurricanes, tornados, floods, etc. look at the 30’s. Also look up some pictures from the arctic in the 1930’s.

mark4
11/16/17 5:37 am

And the cycles are within longer cycles, which is to say the 11 yr cycles tops and bottoms rise and fall over time.

mark4
11/16/17 5:39 am

And it does certainly seem to be the cause.

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/16/17 6:56 am

Mark, you’re right Stoney is very logical & knowledgable also, as opposed to Mitch, who is well spoken, but has holes & contradictions, in some of his posts๐Ÿค”

mitchman399 Oregon
11/16/17 9:21 am

What contradictions are there in my points. It kinda seems you just want to believe what you want to believe.

mitchman399 Oregon
11/16/17 9:27 am

And "my facts" are all over countless studies if you want I can show you sources, but something tells me you'll just dismiss them as fake. If you look at a plotted graph of Earth's average temp there has been a clear trend of the temperature increasing drastically since the 1920's.

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/16/17 12:21 pm

Mitch, as stated in๐Ÿค”Hamlet, “methinks thou doth protest too much”.

SHIPPY1944 Tn.
11/16/17 12:23 pm

Mark4, has already answered both mine & yoursโ—๏ธ

STONEYTJONES Indiana
11/16/17 5:44 pm

Ok. Let’s start with that graph. Let’s see the link.

mark4
11/16/17 6:04 pm

One last thing from me.

The lumber industry, unaccountably from any rational stance, is treated like some evil enterprise by the left. Some of their scummier representatives have resorted to means to stop logging that have badly injured loggers.

This despite the undeniable fact that by harvesting lumber they lock up all that carbon in lignin into long term storage in the form of building materials, then they replant and do the process all over again.

Good sense has never been the strong point of so-called environmentalists.