Today marks the 100th anniversary of the October Revolution, November 7th, 1917, liberating the masses of workers and peasants from the chains of capitalism within Russia and in the tsar's former imperial possessions. 🎈🎉🎈
Followed by years of even deeper despair for millions of people.
What a horrid tragedy.
Is ozzy a feudalist?
Thankfully most of the vestiges of communism are in the junk pile of failed ideologies.
Except all those times it worked, and your guys had to assassinate our guys and lie about it to continue perpetuating that myth.
They are more imprisoned now than they ever were. They are still very poor and someone else is taking their money and living very expensively
In this community, only @RussianThunder and his family have an accurate perspective on communism. Not a day to celebrate.
RT's daddy lived in Russia, so he's somehow more fit to speak on communism than literal communists? Bullshit.
Actually both my parents, my older sisters began school under communism, my grandparents lived under Stalin and my maternal great-grandfather was in Petersburg during the Revolution. He supported it. He very much lived to regret it. One of my teachers lost her father to Stalin’s purges.
I know, I know, you read a book and want to be edgy. You are an expert. Who cares what those who grew up in it and experienced it have to say. You know it all. Sure you do.
You keep saying “Russians daddy lived under it” in such a way as to condescend and belittle his experiences and his point of view. It doesn’t work. It makes you look like a pompous jackass. You are “a recliner Communist”. You sit back, read books and say you are a communist. You would not have lasted a week in the Soviet Union, let alone modern day North Korea. For that matter, neither would I. Communism was gone by the time I came along.
Both of my parents were “literal communists”. Literal as in they were indoctrinated, lived it, studied it, worked under it. That’s being a literal communist....not “Ive read books and I’m a communist”. That’s nothing. That is a literal book reader
I read books, yeah. And no offense, but I honestly couldn't care less about the sob stories of literal Russian capitalists and landlords who exploited labor for a living before Lenin seized power. You think Stalin is evil because you've heard bad stories from bourgeois sources. I think Stalin was good because I've studied his policies and theory, and the results of his actions, and deem them to be revolutionary and liberating. You're status as a Russian with family who lived under Stalin doesn't exactly make you well-read on Stalin's policy and Marxist-Leninist theory, mind you.
Your status *
It doesn’t make them well read, but it makes them experts on the quality of life from said policies.
I guess so, yeah. But RT's grandparents have no more authority to dictate Stalin's theoretical intentions or the factor nature played in shortages and famines than I do. I've read about it, looked into first-hand sources, etc. They lived through it, and clearly they, as RT has admitted they were bourgeois citizens, had a worse experience in the USSR than most, so they're heavily biased in their arguments and claims.
They have more authority to talk about the quality of life under Stalin than you do. Period.
I agree, but I'm not talking about quality of life, I'm talking about the over-arching intentions and results of specific policies taken by the Stalin administration during the Soviet Union.
So you don’t care about the quality of life of the people?
Guess I read all I needed here.
I didn't say I don't care about the quality of life, I said that wasn't what I was referring to in my comments. I care about the experiences of legit working people under the Soviet Union, and the majority of them polled would still vote to bring it back.
Ahh, so you only care about people who agree with you. Got it. I’m glad I’m not like that.
In addition, my great grandparents were classed as bourgeois because they were Jewish. They were not some rich semi-nobles. They had food but not much more and during the war, Stalin left Leningrad to rot. My great grandparents ate dead horses and soup made from glue. They starved because Stalin abandoned them.
They were Jews who Stalin did not trust.
My fathers people were serfs for a long time. Neither family were wealthy . My grandfather was a factory foreman. That was where he was assigned.
I have heard stories from the rich, the poor, Jews, atheists, orthodox, rural, urban etc. None have great things to say.
But RT, they were bourgeois! 🐸
Lenin and Stalin spoke out against antisemitism. Your great grandparents were unlikely classed as bourgeois because they were Jewish, because there were plenty of Jews who supported the revolution as well.
RT has the stories he was told. I prefer to listen to the 75% of Russians who voted to preserve socialism in a referendum in 1991.
“You’re Jewish relatives experiences don’t matter because there were other Jews who supported the revolution”
No, more like "The weight of your family's stories is offset by the astronomically high percentage of Soviet proletarians who didn't want to their socialist democracy to dissolve, even after decades of revisionist capitalism."
If only some Jews were targeted, and his relatives were bourgeois, I'd wager that it has to do with the fact that they were bourgeois, not the fact that they were Jewish. That's just common sense.
Which goes back to my point that you only care about people who agree with you, I’m glad I’m not like that.
You guys are a trip. A vote in 1991? Yes. Though the Soviet had officially fallen, it was still in its death throes. The few years of transition were terrible. It looked like democracy, monarchy, a constitutional republic.....anything...had no chance of succeeding. The society at least functioned under the old system. Eventually, capitalism was able to work and though its a bit like the US with crony capitalism, it is far superior, or so I am told by people who lived it. Many Americans wanted monarchy in the 1770’s. Should we now say we will go with those people and say the US wanted a monarchy or to remain part of England?
A vote 26 years ago is not worth much.
Recent votes are sponsored by the communist party and poll people who either never lived under communism or came of age under capitalism, not communism.
Stalin, on paper, fought against anti-Semitism. The reality was very different.
It doesn’t matter cuz now they’re brainwashed by capitalism RT, they don’t know what they want!
You guys are a trip.
I suggest you take a trip to North Korea. Better yet, apply to live there and give communism a go. Then, let us know how that goes. Then, you can be “literal communists” and not American recliner communists, who are actually made fun of in Russia.
I don't care about what some factions wanted. 75% of the Russian population is a large amount. And around 60% still wish the USSR were still around. In 26 years, it's statistically and demographically impossible that most of that 60% never lived under it.
North Korea wouldn’t accept them because they aren’t part of the Korean “pure blood” and would taint the motherland RT, they really have nowhere to go. Maybe Vietnam.
"they’re brainwashed by capitalism RT, they don’t know what they want!"
Yeah, except the well over half who wish socialism was reinstated.
Vietnam most definitely isn't socialist.
The DPRK isn't Nazi Germany lmao
Technically still a communist country, closed you’ll ever get to your dream.
And no it’s not Doc, but even South Korea is fairly xenophobic and many locals except for people living in Seoul are reluctant to speak with foreigners. Can you really say NK will be any more accepting of foreigners? Lmao
"Technically still a communist country"
Uh, no. And the ROK is an illegitimate US military dictatorship in the southern DPRK, not an actual nation worth taking into consideration.
Uh yes, have you been to Vietnam? I have lmao.
They’re still Korean and grow up under the Korean culture. You had no idea what you’re talking about. Guess you haven’t been to Korea either.
It's like talking about Taiwan, doesn't mean much.
Socialist culture and capitalist culture is different. Where do you think culture comes from? You don't think it has any relationship to its economic system?
I've haven't been to Vietnam or Korea yet (*I'm* busy working), but Vietnam is in no way communist. They've abandoned socialism in favor of a Chinese-style revisionist state capitalist government.
I haven't *
Lol sure it doesn’t, a country of 23 million doesn’t matter at all.
Culture comes from thousands of years of tradition.
You don’t need to work comrade, I taught English in Thailand for half a year. You can do the exact same.
You seem to think my family was the Romanov’s or something. My fathers family lived in eastern Siberia. That’s where Stalin “encouraged” the Jews to go. Before that, they lived in the Pale of Settlement. My great great grandfather had to get permission, as a Jew, to live in St Petersburg. My great grandfather then had to apply for permission as well, though he already lived there.
My fathers family were peasants. Nothing more and nothing less. I would love to have stories of great and wonderful relatives but they were simply peasants. They had good Rasputin stories though.
Many of the men who were the first communists, Trotsky and Lenin, came from wealthier families. Certainly wealthier than mine. As I said, my great grandfather supported them and was part of the revolution.
You could always teach English at a North Korean university. Go live there for a year or two and then come back and tell me how great communism is. I know of some people who have done it.
North Korea will take English teachers but I will warn you that you will have serious restrictions on where you can go and will always have a chaperone. My father helped them with their nuclear program back in the day, one of many sent there over the years and his movements were seriously restricted. He had a “minder” with him all the time. There was already a Soviet supervisor with them and then each guy got a Korean one. He thought it was the oddest thing. He was clearly not impressed.
Never said your family was equivalent to the Romanovs. When we're your great grandparents targeted by the government? What were the consequences? If you can't provide any details, all we have is hear say, rumor. Can't use that as a legitimate criticism of a country.
Yeah....I bet you get a go fund me page for the cost of the ticket.
Come on you guys, your fellow communists need your help.
North Korea does look down on non-Koreans, btw. South Korea does not but are considered “muddied” as they intermarry with westerners, Japanese, Russians, Ukrainians, Indonesians etc.
Some South Korean establishments will still only serve Koreans in SK, RT.
That’s true but at least there is some intermarriage. Not like the north.
Yes I agree. It flies in the face of what these recliner communists wish were true lol
@RussianThunder ... just want to say Thx for the personal view and experience of a communist/Stalinist State. I don’t think anyone can truly understand without having had the experience.
RT doesn't have experience in a socialist state.
What James just said can't be repeated enough. We've got rumors, that's about all
Lol stories are rumors apparently. Nobody suffered under the socialist state, nope. Not at all. RT’s parents made it all up.
Lots of people suffered under the socialist state, but they deserved it.
His parents lived under revisionist capitalism, and he has admitted in the past that his grandparents were classified as bourgeois. He lived under openly capitalist, post-revisionist Russia governed by a practical neocon.
Lmao, it’s ok because they deserved it? Get help dude.
I don't know the lives of his great grandparents. But I asked him specific questions to help us actually understand what happened instead of vague ideas about them being targeted for being Jewish. Recall, I asked: "When we're your great grandparents targeted by the government? What were the consequences?"
I want to know the time period, the more specific the better, and I want to know what this government targeting entailed. "They were repressed." Great. Obviously they weren't sent to the gulag or executed, so what did they go through? And as I said in my previous comment, if we don't have answers to these questions, these stories remain little more than rumors, with little historical value.
And James I recommend you reread this thread to understand RT’s relatives past, apparently you didn’t understand why they were classified as bourgeois.
Lmao at “revisionist capitalist”
He claimed they were classified as bourgeois because they were Jewish, with no proof, which is ridiculous because otherwise there wouldn't have been Jewish Bolsheviks. There are far too many holes in his stories for them to be credible. I'm not accusing him of lying, but his stories are incomplete and show a certain narrative on the side of his parents in their retelling of his family's past.
Lmao your excuse for the suffering of others is the only thing that’s incompetent.
Well the people in the gulags, they suffered, and I'm glad they did. The people who weren't there were scum.
I would like @RussianThunder to answer my questions though, and if he cannot, I'd like him to admit that his story is too incomplete to be legitimately used to condemn the USSR.
Who were there*
Yep, still a despicable reason to excuse the suffering of others. I don’t think any sane person would wish suffering in someone like that.
I know, I'm insane for believing in prisons
Lmao, keep trying to justify death and suffering.
You realize every other country in the world used penal labor at the time too, right? Labor colonies weren't exclusive to the Soviet Union. Hell, the US still uses penal labor today.
So lol? Does that excuse it? “Everyone did it so it’s ok” grow up.
Keep justifying the death of political opponents. It’s both sad and hilarious.
The country you support is doing far worse to prisoners RIGHT NOW through things like penal labor and GITMO than the USSR ever did to people in gulags.
So much irony 😂
MrEdwin, stop justifying death and suffering!
Lmao, apparently I support everything my country does.
Hey @nemacyst check our these recliner chair communists who haven’t experienced the real world yet. I think it’ll make a good laugh for you.
We've had plenty of encounters with the arrogant fascist, no need for another one.
I have him on ignore for being a douchebag, and I hope James does to.
I don't. 😬
Lmao. So why haven’t you two taken out loans to go to North Korea?
How dense are you? Isn’t your excuse of not going to North Korea that you don’t have the money yet?
This user is currently being ignored
I have little interest in living in the DPRK. I would enjoy visiting, though.
Why don’t you want to live in a communist country?
Well I don't speak the language, for starters.
You can study it lol. You think I knew Thai and Japanese before I went to those countries?
I assume not, by the way the question was framed.
You’re correct for once, what’s your next excuse for not visiting a communist country?
I don't speak the language, I'm not in a financial situation allowing me to pick up and leave, and I have a lot of shit to take care of here first. There's a decent chance I will move out of the country later on, and the DPRK is a possibility.
Nothing’s stopping you from studying Korean except yourself lol. Lmao if you really cared so much about leaving a capitalist country you’d just take out the loan and leave right now.
C’mon James, you wouldn’t be the first person I knew who dropped everything from their Western life in pursuit of a simpler life in a third world country. Why are you so scared?
Suuuure you are, you’re unable because you don’t want to go.
Fake commie confirmed.
I'm not giving you any details about my situation, because I know you and Nemmy would use them against me, but I'm unable to pick up and leave at the moment.
Because they’re probably illegitimate, I’ve heard every excuse from people to not travel. You’re no different.
Fake commie is fake
I don't want to live in the DPRK because Asia has never been my interest. I love Africa. I'd love to live in Africa some day.
Ideally, I'll end up living in Cuba or another third-world Latin American state with revolutionary potential. I'll come participate in your African revolution, too. Just send me a PM at least a week ahead of time. ✊🏿
We don't believe in spontaneity on the Maoist side. Protracted people's war, come help when you get the chance, we'll need you for about 60 years lmao
"On the Maoist side"? Oh, please. Africa has always been far less Maoist than Asia and Latin America. *We'll* call you in 60 years.
Thought you were going to Latin America
Peru is in Latin America, and the Shining Path founded MLM. Beat that.
You've been Maoist for about a week, what do you know? How much Mao have you read? That's right
I've been a Third Worldist for like a week, I've been a Maoist for a little while now. I've read "On Contradiction," excerpts from "On Practice," and some of "On Protracted War." I'll get around to it eventually.
Read On New Democracy. It's a brilliant work about how we can resist imperialism through our political organization.
Okay. How long is it? Something I can finish in a few days?
A few hours if you've got the time to sit down and do it.
Do you even speak Spanish lmao?
You know Doc, I could run down my families story about Gulags and arrests but think I’ll forgo that. Nothing I say can keep you and James from believing Stalin and the USSR was a wonderful thing. James, in particular, has been rude and condescending, so nothing I say will change your mind. So, rather than have you decide it didn’t happen, my family is somehow mistaken, I’m buying into family lore or my grandfather was a liar, I’ll let you just think what you want.
I am an avowed capitalist but one day, mark my words on this, you will understand how mistaken your beliefs are. You may never be an avowed capitalist but you will come to see communism on a mass scale has never worked and can never work.
So, rather than having you both belittle my families experiences, I thank you for the offer but think I’ll pass. It would make no difference, clearly.
Arguing with you guys is only slightly less frustrating than arguing with Holocaust deniers.
Hey, I'm rude and condescending to people who are rude and condescending to me. With you equating me to a conspiracy theorist and Holocaust denier, I think I've earned the right to call you out on your bullshit.
RT has been pretty polite in this, and you are similar to a holocaust denier.
Over the course of this thread, RT has mocked me for supposed naïveté and indoctrination (ironic), called me a recliner communist, and equated my beliefs with Holocaust denial. In no way has he, today or ever, stopped to consider my viewpoint or address my claims in any meaningful way other than distant anecdotes and name-calling. I don't take much personal offense to any of this, of course, but he has no place to attack me for being rude or condescending.
It doesn’t help that you completely dismiss everything he says, if that’s not rude I don’t know what is.
As I said above, I'm rude to those who are rude to me. If he won't address my claims, I'm not going to address his recounting of the stories told to him by his grandparents, which the SOH community generally seems to accept as gospel.
If you read the beginning of this thread, RT was polite in the beginning, then you said you don’t care about “sob stories” lol.
Also you are a recliner chair communist, RT just pointed out the fact you guys get made fun of in Russia. Which isn’t an insult but a fact.
Lmao proof that you’re wrong is yo above and you ignore it. That’s exactly what we’re talking about.
Proof that I'm wrong about what? I've had plenty of encounters with RT in the past. They've all involved quite a bit of name-calling on both sides. So what?
Lmao do I have to explain the flow of the conversation? You make an accusation then I countered it with what has been posted in this thread. Then you bring up past interactions that have nothing to do with this conversation. Do you play stupid on purpose or something?
Lenin’s government was far better than the Tsarist predecessor, but it did certainly have its flaws.
Most, but by no means all, of which Stalin later corrected.
Stalin was exponentially worse than Lenin.
In what ways?
The mass murder and purging was definitely a negative aspect of the Stalin era.
Mass murder? Namely?
And what's so bad about keeping revisionists hellbent on restoring feudal/capitalist exploitation and imperialism out of the government?
We knew you were a Trotskyist
I mean, how'd that work out for you?
Also liberating them from their lives.
If you think the Tsarists regime was any better than Lenins you are delusional.
For the record, I believe Lenins was far better
Well, Lenin didn't have a regime.
Disagree, but I don't use the term as a negative thing.
I prefer the term "Lenin/Stalin administration"
Lenin was the elected chairman of the democratic government of the people of Soviet Russia. I don't think that qualifies as a regime.
You are probably right, wasdarb. I like that lol
Yay. The 100th anniversary of the murder of the rightful sovereign of The Russian Empire, his wife, and his children. 100th anniversary of the institution of ninety years of destitution, mass murder, and totalitarian despotism.
Aren't you a downer!
The "rightful monarch" who gave him that right? Certainly not the people.
The Monarchs say god did, but that's bullshit. The House of Romanov held the monarchy at the choice of the boyars, elected in 1613 under Michael I after the Time of Troubles. Their power was derived from the support of the boyars and thus the military. Fuck the people, they were literally peasants and should have no choice in their leaders.
Well, I mean. I don't have any response to that. That's just terrible.
All true power comes from the people. The Russian Revolution is proof of this
Donald Trump. That's what happens when the Hoi Polloi get to choose their leaders.
I agree, populism can be dangerous. But monarchy is much more dangerous. A monarch will always be authoritarian, just look at the stuff we learned about the royal estate in the UK
"Power comes from the people."
Nonsense. Otherwise monarchy would never have happened at all and democracy would be the most common form of government. Yet, the reverse is true. Far more kingdoms have existed than democracies.
Yet geopolitical evolution means more democracies excuse todat
Autocracy is what is necessary to keep the country stable and prosperous. The future of the country cannot be held in the thrall of the whims of the majority. Totalitarianism is tyranny, autocracy gone too far however. The flock needs a Shepard, not a shock collar.
Tsarist Russia practiced nothing short of slavery and there was no reform in site. Revolution was necessary. I agree killing the whole royal family was overkill, but still.
"In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the names of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me—who lives and who dies?"~Varys, A Clash of Kings
In reality, all power lives wherever the hell we believe it does. The people are easily manipulated by strong men and fanatic ideologues. A monarch keeps those dangerous forces in check.
We both love asoiaf but clearly interpret it very differently.
Serfdom was Russia's mistake, that is true. It is not monarchy's mistake though. Tsar Alexander II ended it in 1864, bloodlessly and he reformed the politcal system for better representation of his people. He was called Alexander The Liberator. Alexander the Reformer. How was he repaid by 'The People'? Murdered by revolutionary bombs on the streets of St. Petersburg.
Alexander wasn't king during the revolution. Perhaps if Nicholas had been as reform minded the revolution would not have happened.
The problem with monarchy is it's a lottery. You can get a great ruler, or an evil one, or one who neglects his kingdom in favor of painting.
Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary was going to set in motion a plan to federalize the Empire for equal representation of the multitude of ethnic minorities that lived within it...when he returned from Sarajevo in 1914.
Murdered by a revolutionary.
Reforms need to be brought in from the top down. When they come from the bottom up, people die.
It's not the point. Alexander did want to bring positive change, but still got murdered by an ungrateful and ignorant population. Nicholas II was a buffoon this is true, but there were others more capable that he could've been replaced with. But no, the peasants had to murder his entire fucking family.
Monarchs don't get any rights. Down with tyranny ✊🏿
Very nice thread! Well-argued, both of you 👏👏👏
@ComradeJames this is the correct poll.
Also happy birthday to my sweetheart, who was born on one of the best days of the year 😂❤️