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rebelfury76 November 7th, 2017 3:12pm

The AR in "AR15" stands for: A) "assault rifle" or B) ArmaLite Rifle - a brand name

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Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/07/17 9:03 pm

The AR15 is an Assault Rifle made by ArmaLite. AR is ArmaLite. Doesn't change the fact it is an assault rifle though!

JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/08/17 12:40 am

*Assault weapon.
The AR-15 is an assault weapon. However, not every state is in agreement with what constitutes an assault weapon.

Assault rifle refers to man portable military grade long guns with semi/full/burst selector capability.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

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rebelfury76 F Trump, F his idiot base
11/08/17 3:12 am

It's not an "assault rifle," 😂 that's an oft incorrectly used term by the left wing to describe things they know little about.

rebelfury76 F Trump, F his idiot base
11/08/17 3:13 am

Shaz be honest did you have to Google this?

Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 5:46 am

REB - nope. I've explained this a couple times here. I can't remember if I posted it also on your or @jimiscott Facebook page?

Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 5:47 am

I took a lot of time on that one - sources and all. If I can't find it, I'll just do a nutshell summary here.

Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 11:14 am

You are incorrect. This is common talking points spouted by the 2A crowd, but they are completely ignorant on weapon history. Semi auto AK47, AR-15s, FS2000, et al meet the definition of an assault rifle - most of the time.

The first assault rifle was the StG 44 developed for Nazi German soldiers during WWII. Yes. It could be fired in full auto or semi. But then again, so could the M1918 - or BAR - that was the predecessor to the M60 machine. No one would confuse that beast with an assault rifle. In fact, there's multiple medium and lightweight machine guns that had a selector switch.

Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 11:15 am

What makes an assault rifle an assault rifle has zero to do with whether it fires in auto, semiauto or foe that matter is bolt action. What makes an AR an AR is the TYPE of round it fires. The round developed for the StG and every subsequent AR is a mid range round. In other words, it has less powder, less range and less kick than a standard long rifle, but more than a handgun round. Why? Most battles happen under 200 yds. A long rifle round has too much kick to control in either rapid fire semi or auto, and a handgun round doesn't have enough oomph to be accurate honestly much past 50. Assault rifle rounds hit the sweet spot. They're lighter, easier to control, and deadly accurate out to about 300 yds. Beyond that, they're accuracy drops quickly.

Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 11:15 am

The round (not the selector switch) is what made one famous general say it was the largest advancement in warfare since gunpowder. That is what makes an assault rifle an assault rifle. Caliber chambering for use on the modern battlefield. Nothing more. Nothing less. Oh, and if you disagree, then you must believe all the armed forces moved away from assault rifles when they replaced the M16A4 with the M4? Spent several years only firing in semi mode.
As I've already pointed out, we have had multiple non-ARs with selective fire, and multiple USGI primary rifles that didn't fire in full auto. The last M16 I carried had semi and 3 round burst. The round is what makes it an AR. As an aside, I get a huge kick out of the tacticool crowd who buy AR-15s set up to fire handgun rounds or .308. Waste of money.
Which brings up one last point. Pistol grips and flash suppressors.

Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 11:16 am

The goal of the military when choosing a weapon for its members is to select something that can put as much hurt downrange on target consistently with as little risk to the soldier as possible. They've paid and continue to pay literally billions in this pursuit. Flash suppressors and pistol grips came out of this endeavor. Pistol grips help with control and maintaining target acquisition when firing rapidly. FSs help limit exposure of the warrior to a return of fire. Those are important when engaging someone who might shoot back. They are worthless when hunting deer, elk, bear, squirrel or Bigfoot. Their only purpose is to aid the soldier in his/her mission. Does adding them make it an assault rifle? No.

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Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 11:16 am

However. If I own a mossberg bolt action predator chambered for 5.56, I own an assault rifle. If I swap out the stock to accept a pistol grip, add a flash suppressor, I'm altering a hunting rifle (although hunting with intermediate rounds is also dumb) to be a weapon more in line with those designed to be military weapons.

I think it's super clear. If you're purchasing a firearm blueprinted to function on the battlefield that is chambered to handle mil spec rounds, you own an assault rifle. Whether you can fire 1 round at a time or burn through a 50 round magazine in 4 seconds, doesn't really matter.


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Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 11:16 am

I'm not anti gun ownership. I have north of a dozen. I do support reasonable controls to keep people safe - and don't buy into the "their gonna come get my guns so they can't know I have 'em" fantasy. I hate it when gun Mfgs and their lobbyist group intentionally mislead people though. They do everyone a disservice when they do so.

Next time you hear one of your friends spouting off the AR stands for ArmaLite and it has to be fully auto drivel....start with "actually....." and then lay some education on his (or her) ass.


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Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 11:17 am

@rebelfury76 there you go. Couldn't find the sourced doc, but all the key relevant points are in here. pick it a part - I double dog dare you. I do ACTUALLY know what I'm talking about!

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/08/17 12:30 pm

Actually...
"The term 'assault rifle', when used in its proper context, militarily or by its specific functionality, has a generally accepted definition with the firearm manufacturing community. In more casual usage, THE TERM ASSAULT WEAPON IS SOMETIMES CONFLATED OR CONFUSED WITH THE TERM ASSAULT RIFLE.
In the United States, "assault weapons" are usually defined IN LEGISLATION as semi-automatic firearms that have certain features generally associated with military firearms, including assault rifles. The 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired on September 13th, 2004, CODIFIED A DEFINITION OF AN ASSAULT WEAPON. It defined the rifle type of assault weapon as a semiautomatic firearm with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and two or more of the following:
Folding or telescopic stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount or "lug"
Flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accept a flash suppressor
Grenade launcher".

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/08/17 12:49 pm

Definitions have nothing to do with cartridge caliber. Yes, the reduced size of the round had something to do with controllability and engagement distances, but it had most to with saving weight and the ability to carry more ammo. The Browning M1918 BAR did not have a semi-auto selector. In later models, the switch positions were "safe" and two cyclic rates of auto fire.
The great experiment with the A4 firing in only semi-auto mode was done in order to determine if the army could save money on ammunition while keeping effective fire on target. It was a failure, and they soon switched back. And if those semi-fire military firearms were to be made available to the public as surplus, the average Joe would be
allowed to own one.
Again, caliber is not a factor in determining whether a firearm is an assault weapon or rifle. Colt manufactures an Ar-15 frame chambered full auto for 9mm straight from the factory, which makes it an assault rifle.

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/08/17 1:03 pm

Or the full powered FN FAL chambered in 7.62 NATO which is also select fire. This also meets the requirements of an assault rifle.
To say that flash suppressors, pistol grips, bipods or most other ad-on accessory are "worthless when hunting deer, elk, bear, squirrel or Bigfoot" has probably never done any night hunting or long range hunting. These items have multiple purposes and are no way exclusive to the battlefield.
And if you modify your Mossberg the way you describe, you will not meet the Federal definition of an assault rifle. Or an assault weapon for that matter (see above).
These definitions are clearly spelled out. All you have to do is a simple Google search or Wikipedia search of "Assault Weapon" or "1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban".

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Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 9:18 pm

While I agree they do not meet the legislative definitions in the silly assault rifle ban, you are incorrect in asserting caliber doesn't determine whether a rifle is an assault rifle, long rifle, or sub machine gun. Read the history of "assault rifles" or "assault weapons," and specifically the Sturmgewehr. It's all there if you're interested. A 9mm fully auto AR15 would qualify as a sub machine gun, but not as an assault rifle. You're right though about the BAR. I knew it had a selective fire, but confused the 1918A3 with the 1918 and 1922 models. I'd love to know how a flash suppressor helps deer/elk hunting. I've done both, and have been on numerous night fire exercises. Whether the gas is ejected straight out, or dispersed horizontally from the barrel, one thing I can absolutely say is one round ruins your night vision. It's why we were trained in Shutzspitz to keep one eye (non dominate) closed. I didn't list bipods as of course control when prone has long range applications.

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Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/08/17 9:26 pm

The innovation that moved weapons from long/machine/sub machine gun to assault rifle was the round development....and nothing you said above counters that. Hell. It's literally what "sturmgewehr" means. Legislation doesn't drive definition. Innovation drives differentiation, and that differentiation requires a definition. A weapon designed for the battlefield calibered for ammo designed to win the battlefield is a military weapon. If it's a midrange round, it's an assault rifle. The rest is semantics.

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/08/17 10:09 pm

There are distinct requirements for a weapon to fit into one category or another, and the legal definition that determines this is the only one that counts.
“Assault rifle” definition may have more qualifications than “assault weapon”, specifically in the area of caliber.
I will admit that most military definitions of “assault rifle” requires an intermediate cartridge effective to 300 yards, however select fire is also still a requirement as well.
However, “assault weapon” makes no concessions for caliber, according to the ‘94 Weapons Ban, so the semi-auto versions of “assault rifle”, “long rifle”(as long as ‘long rifle’ meets all other requirements and is not bolt action) and “sub-machine gun” are all considered assault weapons with the satisfaction of other Ban requirements.
If you are uncertain how a flash suppressor or barrel shroud would assist in hunting, I suggest you research the topic a little further if the purpose is not self-explanatory to you.

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/08/17 10:24 pm

The AR-15 is an excellent varmint hunting rifle, especially for coyotes. Hunting coyotes is best done at night and flash shrouds and suppressors are an integral component for doing so.

Legislation absolutely drives definition especially when terms might be ambiguous at best. To make something legal or illegal must be specifically spelled out and categorized in order to make the law applicable. This is exactly what’s done with assault weapons since there is strict legislation already in place regarding private ownership of assault rifles (which again has been determined by categorization by law). And again, assault rifles are not strictly determined by caliber alone. A bolt action 5.56 rifle is not considered an assault rifle. The action itself disqualifies it.
There are some semantics involved with this subject, but I believe you are over simplifying the topic by not completely understanding the legal differences between the two.

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Shazam Scaramouche, OH
11/09/17 12:21 am

JACK - the point I don't think you grasp is I don't care what the legal definition is. It doesn't matter. Folks were getting free electric golf carts for about a year bc they met the legal definition of an electric car - just in case you're wondering, a golf cart is not a car. It is a cart designed to carry golfers around a golf course. An assault rifle is an assault rifle bc of the round. Full auto midrange round? Assault rifle not machine gun. Semi auto midrange caliber? Assault rifle not long rifle. Can it be used for other purposes within its range of accuracy? Of course. Same as a golf cart could take you to the corner gas station for a 1/2 gallon of milk. It doesn't make it a car. It makes it a golf cart being used off the course. Can you shoot groundhogs with an AR15? Of course. It doesn't make it a hunting rifle. It makes it an assault rifle being used for hunting. You either see that or you don't. I think it's simple to understand.

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/09/17 5:43 pm

That’s good that you don’t care about the legal definition of an item, or an industry accepted definition of an item, especially a regulated one. That way, if you get caught with it when you’re not allowed to posses it, you can let them know that you don’t care about the legal definition of something as long as you can justify what I think it is or is not. Wonderful logic.
If a golf cart meets the definition of “electric car”, then that’s what it is (Though there are dozens of other qualifications needed to make a vehicle street legal, so I have no idea where you’re getting this example from).
Please show me documentation (as I have) where it states that caliber is the SOLE determining factor that differentiates assault rifle from assault weapon other than ‘because Shaz says so”.

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/09/17 6:00 pm

When you use an AR-15 to hunt with, it is an assault weapon per se used as a hunting rifle. If you hunt with it and it is legal to hunt with it, you can use it in that capacity. But a bolt action hunting rifle chambered for 5.56 NATO does not make that an assault rifle because of the round. Period.

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JohnnyHancock Goodneighbor, Boston, MA
11/07/17 12:44 pm

Fun Fact: An AR-15 has a secret button that unlocks a cheat code for unlimited ammo 😂

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Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
11/07/17 8:57 am

If it was actually an assault rifle, I'd go with A. But i say B.

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Liberty Lets Use Logic
11/07/17 8:22 am

The latter. It’s the name of the original designer/manufacturer.

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JackTorS SOH Flounder
11/07/17 8:26 am

Company.
Eugene Stoner was the primary designer.

Liberty Lets Use Logic
11/07/17 8:49 am

He was an employee of Armalite when he designed it, and did so as such.