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4JC November 7th, 2017 3:11pm

The Air Force, under Obama’s admin, failed to follow procedures which allowed the Texas church shooter to obtain firearms he shouldn’t have had. So this shooting is NOT the fault of Rep gun owners, but the Obama admin who didn’t enforce laws we had!

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JustHarry FL
11/08/17 6:52 am

Good morning 4JC, I had a good nights sleep, but I see you were up early 🌞
I read the article and as far as I can see the Government is doing the right thing. They see a problem and they will look into it and find out what happened, how it can be fixed.
Obama and Trump cannot be blamed, but if you insist, fine.
Your statement that this would have never happened if the law had been followed is probably false. If this young man couldn’t buy a gun as he did, he could have bought one off the street, at a gun-show, had someone else buy it for him.
Anyway, neither one of us is going to change our minds, so again, I apologize for yesterday’s tirades and look forward to our next issue. Harry

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 6:58 am

Thanks, Harry. While I agree that it’s not directly Obama’s fault, my entire point was that the laws on the books did NOT prevent this shooting, & passing new laws will NOT prevent future shootings.

It’s like you said—they will get guns no matter what, if they have evil in their hearts.

I’m just tired of liberals blaming Republicans who are mostly law abiding citizens.

We see from this incident that the govt lets things fall through the cracks even when there are laws on the books. So what we have to keep in mind is that it’s up to US to protect ourselves, because they sure aren’t going to.

And that’s exactly what happened in this incident—good guys with guns stopped a bad guy with a gun. There is no telling how many more he would’ve killed had they not had guns & run him down.

I also get very upset when people blame Trump for every little thing that happens, but give Obama a pass. You KNOW that if this had happened on Trump’s watch, the media would be EVISCERATING DJT!

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Think Lovin Life
11/08/17 9:48 am

4JC ... as usual, you’re far more accepting than me. When someone like @JustHarry makes excuses for the failures of government while demanding more government control, I simply must call out the duplicity.

Then they carry the delusion further by speculating that IF the Air Force had done the job they were supposed to do that this angry atheist would’ve gotten the gun from a gun show without a background check (proven leftist lie), and so the inept government is not to blame, yet they should be given more power to do more intrusive searches ... yep, that’s precisely what Dr Einstein meant when he postulated that doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 10:07 am

Well, if you read the MANY posts between myself and Harry in this poll, you’d know I wasn’t so accepting and was literally right on the verge of putting him on ignore when he apologized—not because of our differences of opinion, but because he was hammering me in a not so nice way in EVERY single thread.

I spent all day here, answering people, and most of that time was with Harry. If I had it to do over, I wouldn’t have done that. I would’ve just ignored all his comments and gone on with my day. I just don’t have the time to do that from now on. So this is your heads up for next time, Harry! 😂🤣😂

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lostriver Oregon
11/08/17 3:25 am

O-please, it’s not Obama’s fault or Trumps. This individual who killed these people was mentally derange. It’s nearly impossible to control all these sick people. We all need to come together to find a solution, and help the families that lost their loved ones. American’s do their best work is when we put our heads together.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 5:59 am

We had a solution for this one, and didn’t take it. Please read the article. This man was NOT supposed to be allowed to get weapons.

Think Lovin Life
11/08/17 9:53 am

Lost ... MrO permeated an lackadaisical air throughout the executive branch. While his job was to enforce laws enacted by Congress, he broke laws and refused to enforce others.

There is no excuse for the failure. There is no way leftists can persist with the idiotic notion that trusting the government with things like this will protect us.

The answer is not more laws or more extreme vetting. The answer is leadership that enforces our laws and a citizenry that respects our laws. Leftists are unwilling to do either!

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 10:10 am

Great points, Think! Thanks so much!

truspec Texas
11/07/17 7:49 pm

4JC, should Trump be blamed for the ambush in Niger where 4 US soldiers died?

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:14 pm

He has been being blamed, hasn’t he?

truspec Texas
11/07/17 9:49 pm

I asked whether you think he should, don't deflect

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 6:05 am

It really doesn’t matter what I think, does it? He’s constantly blamed for everything.

Obama got credit for Osama Bin Laden, even though he didn’t actually do anything. That’s just usually how it works.

The Buck Stops Here.

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Think Lovin Life
11/08/17 9:56 am

Excellent point, 4JC!

@Truspec , do you remember the Democrat battle cry in 2012, it was “bin Laden is dead and al Quieda is on the run”. MrO took credit, and I suspect you gave him that credit for the kill of bin Laden. So don’t suggest that the executive getting credit/blame is inappropriate, unless you’re willing to redo the 2012 election and call out MrO for inappropriately taking credit for the kill. I believe this had a major sway in that election.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 10:12 am

Thanks, Think! And even among those that have to wrack their brains to find ANYTHING they thought Obama did that was good (including myself), they usually give Obama credit for THAT!

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truspec Texas
11/08/17 11:57 am

The difference is Obama had to actually sign off on that. Obama/Trump weren't directly involved in the other incidents

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 12:46 pm

I’ll concede that point, truspec. But Obama’s admin had an overall laxity when it came to following the law, from illegal immigrants all the way to this issue, apparently. It’s a very dangerous, even deadly environment when you don’t even follow your own laws as a government!

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 5:37 pm

Thanks Voc, yes I was mean and frustrated by a simple understanding that no President was responsible for a human mistake that had not been uncovered. I do believe that many people in the debate understood that while no president is perfect and does make mistakes, there are some things that are human errors and not any Presidents fault.

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voc I am...what I am
11/07/17 7:28 pm

I agree with you. I don’t think this was his fault either. I think 4jc was just venting her frustrations too. We just have to figure out how to talk about all this stuff without getting so heated. Like I said, I do it too. It’s hard sometimes not to

RussianThunder Russia and USA
11/07/17 3:36 pm

If we blamed Trump and blamed Bush for everything then yes, this is Obama’s fault but I don’t think everything is the fault of Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton etc. Someone in the Air Force messed up. This is serious but I don’t blame Obama. Whoever was in charge of entering this information in the system is to blame. If no one is assigned then I guess the head of the Air Force holds responsibility.

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RussianThunder Russia and USA
11/07/17 3:38 pm

The guy was also involuntary committed to a mental institution at one point and escaped. That should certainly have been a disqualified as well.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:10 pm

Have you heard the saying, “The Buck Stops Here?” The Commander in Chief is ultimately responsible for everything that happens under him in the military. After all, it goes the other way, doesn’t it?

Obama took credit for the fact that Osama bin Laden was taken out. Should he not have gotten credit, since it wasn’t him, but the military that did this?

Trump takes the blame for anything EVERYONE under him does, and even things that none of them have done, but someone just makes up!

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:33 pm

Isn’t the Air Force under Trump, or did Obama keep it?

RussianThunder Russia and USA
11/07/17 4:35 pm

I think she’s saying the shooter was imprisoned and discharged under Obama’s Administration, that’s all.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:53 pm

Yes, you’re correct, RT. Thanks! This happened under the Obama Admin. And you better believe if something like this had fallen through the cracks during the last 10 months, the media, almost all Dems, a lot of Republican politicians and all celebrities would be EVISCERATING Trump over it.

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Pickyoteeth
11/07/17 9:55 pm

It's not the presidents job to prosecute people in the military. As we saw with the trial a week or so ago, Trump was not able to make the punishment he wanted with a deserter.
It is the President's job to push for common sense gun regulation instead of saying, "at least there was a good guy with a gun." what stopping dems from saying, "if gun laws were in place, there wouldn't have been a shooting at all."

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 5:57 am

You missed the point, Pick. There WERE gun laws in place for this one, and he fell through the cracks.

Pickyoteeth
11/08/17 10:11 am

Maybe if there had been stricter background checks @ the point of purchase it wouldn't have happened

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/08/17 10:28 am

You still haven’t read the article, have you? It was NOT because of background checks. It was that the Air Force didn’t turn this man into the FBI, like they were supposed to. The GOVERNMENT, under Obama, didn’t follow their own laws that would’ve prevented this man from waltzing into a gun shop and buying the weapons AND the body armor.


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swervin Maryland
11/07/17 2:58 pm

You can't blame the President (current or past) for this. It is the fault of the psychopath who did it and no one else.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:07 pm

So you’re ok with the fact that he was able to get guns even though the law said he couldn’t? That the Air Force messed up and allowed him to do this by not turning him in to the FBI after he abused his wife and cracked his son’s skull??

swervin Maryland
11/07/17 4:12 pm

How is any of that President Obama's fault? Does he do background checks? Was he working at the store where the gun was purchased? Did he make the gun? Was he in the court martial? Did he make the law where a bad conduct discharge means a person can buy a gun whereas a dishonorable means they can't?

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:40 pm

He was the Commander in Chief when the AF dropped the ball. You KNOW if something like that happened under Trump’s admin, EVERYONE would be coming after Trump! You have heard The Buck Stops Here, right?


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swervin Maryland
11/07/17 4:56 pm

The Air Force didn't drop the ball. A bad conduct discharge does not prevent someone from buying a gun after they serve their sentence. A dishonorable discharge does. Did he deserve a dishonorable discharge instead? That's hard to say, since I wasn't on his court martial and I don't know what evidence was presented, how he was behaving, etc.
In the Navy, they don't allow anyone who was even accused of domestic violence until they have been cleared of all charges. I'm not sure what exactly the law is, but we had this huge placard with it written out in our armory.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:18 pm

Did you read the article, swervin? The AF did drop the ball and they’re admitting it! Even Democratic politicians are now calling for Mattis to do an investigation to see how many OTHER former military members have fallen through the cracks and have guns that they shouldn’t have. They acknowledge that something went wrong under the Obama Administration.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:19 pm

Here you go, directly from the article:

The Air Force says it failed to follow policies for alerting federal law enforcement about Devin P. Kelley’s violent past, enabling the former service member, who killed at least 26 churchgoers Sunday in Sutherland Springs, Tex., to obtain firearms before the shooting rampage.

Kelley should have been barred from purchasing firearms and body armor because of his domestic violence conviction in 2014 while serving at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico. He was sentenced to a year in prison and kicked out of the military with a bad conduct discharge following two counts of domestic abuse against his wife and a child, according to Air Force spokeswoman Ann Stefanek.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:19 pm

2) “Initial information indicates that Kelley’s domestic violence offense was not entered into the National Criminal Information Center database,” Stefanek said in a statement released Monday. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson and Chief of Staff David Goldfein have directed an investigation of Kelley’s case and “relevant policies and procedures,” she said.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:23 pm

3) His ability to buy guns at all highlights the Air Force’s failure to follow Pentagon guidelines for ensuring that certain violent offenses are reported to the FBI.

Kelley’s sentence was a functional felony conviction, said Geoffrey Corn, a former Army lawyer and professor at the South Texas College of Law in Houston. A separate law prohibits violent offenders from purchasing body armor, which Kelley was seen wearing during the rampage.

As news emerged Monday that the Air Force failed to follow notification policies in Kelley’s case, lawmakers called on Defense Secretary Jim Mattis to determine how many former service members who’ve been convicted of violent crimes also have been improperly documented.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:23 pm

4) “Learning that this senseless act of violence might have been prevented if only the proper form was filled out by military investigators was absolutely devastating,” Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) said in a statement. Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) said on Twitter that he would call on the Pentagon and the Justice Department to “provide a clear picture of where, why and how this process failed.”


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swervin Maryland
11/07/17 5:26 pm

I read the article...bad conduct discharges allow for the person to buy a gun after they serve their sentences where as dishonorable do not.
Also, the Air Force did not say they did anything wrong, the Washington Post said they said that without using anyone from the Air Force as source of their quote.
“Initial information indicates that Kelley’s domestic violence offense was not entered into the National Criminal Information Center database,” Stefanek said in a statement released Monday. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson and Chief of Staff David Goldfein have directed an investigation of Kelley’s case and “relevant policies and procedures,” she said.
That is not admitting guilt, especially because the law does not require them to notify anyone after a bad conduct discharge...

swervin Maryland
11/07/17 5:28 pm

You should really do some research on the differences in a bad conduct discharge and a dishonorable discharge. I had to do so after I read the news that this psychopath was discharged. You are speaking from a weaker position because you don't know the differences.

swervin Maryland
11/07/17 5:36 pm

The Launtenberg Amendment.
The act bans shipment, transport, ownership, and use of guns or ammunition by individuals convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence, or who are under a restraining (protection) order for domestic abuse that falls within the criteria set by 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8). The 1968 Gun Control Act and subsequent amendments had previously prohibited anyone convicted of a felony and anyone subject to a domestic violence protective order from possessing a firearm. The act also makes it unlawful to knowingly sell or give a firearm or ammunition to such persons.
The military doesn't classify its crimes as misdemeanors or felonies. So the Air Force did nothing wrong.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:00 pm

All I know is that all the news outlets—CNN, USA Today, BBC, NY Times, are ALL saying that the Air Force dropped the ball and allowed this to happen.

I don’t have any time to research what your’e saying tonight, as I have to get to bed in a few minutes. I was afraid that the notification for this thread would drop off my list and I just wanted to touch base with you again before going to bed and let you know I didn’t forget you or lose interest. Just don’t have time. I’ve been in this one poll all day long, while trying to take care of my 2 year old granddaughter, so I’m bushed. Thanks for the convo!

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 1:39 pm

You need to get a life! The Air Force screwed up. Nothing to do with Obama’s.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 2:44 pm

So you agree that what the military does now has nothing to do with Trump?

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 2:55 pm

What are you smoking? It depends on what the Military does. The Air Force screwing up has nothing to do with Trump either. Except, now that Trump is Commander in Chief, one hopes he fixes the problem that occurred, so that it doesn’t happen again. That’s what any leader would do. News flash, humans screw up.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 3:41 pm

So if someone makes a mistake under Trump, you won’t blame Trump? I’ll believe that when I see it!

He can’t very well fix a problem under Obama’s Admin, in which people screwed up then.

What you’re basically already saying is that if someone else in the AF screws up and this happens again, it will be Trump’s fault for not fixing the problem of the person that screwed up under Obama. SMH

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 3:56 pm

That is plain stupid. No, if the Air Force or anyone made a mistake I wouldn’t blame them. You seem to think assigning blame is important. I would hope that whoever made a mistake, that whoever they report to would try and determine the cause and FIX it. So maybe it can be avoided in the future.

Do you allow any Democrats in your church? Do you shoot them or talk them to death with your absurd opinions?

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:15 pm

Dems are blaming Republicans for it, so why can’t I put the blame where it actually belongs? On the AF personnel that did not report him to the FBI after he abused his wife and cracked his son’s skull!

Oh, the AF is scrambling, trying to find out exactly what went wrong and how to fix it. I’m quite shocked that they even admitted it!

My entire point is that Dems are screaming—make new gun laws, make new gun laws—when the gun laws we have are not paid attention to.

Those last two sentences are just ridiculous. What does that have to do with anything, as to whether there are Democrats in my church? We generally don’t talk about politics—up until now, during DJT’s term that has actually been ILLEGAL for us to do!

Of course, I don’t shoot them. I’m a Christian. It was an atheist that did this shooting, not a Christian, so I don’t know where you’re coming from on that one.

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mudkip17 United States of Texas
11/07/17 1:37 pm

wow...now THAT'S white privilege.... a black man still getting blamed for the actions of a white Christian male who beat his wife and child and killed 27 people in a church...

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 2:44 pm

You didn’t read the article, did you?

mudkip17 United States of Texas
11/07/17 2:48 pm

when that Muslim drive a truck through civilians, did anyone try and shift the blame off him? did anyone go straight to mental illness? did anyone question whether wht he did was terrorism or not? that's white privilege

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 3:37 pm

No one is trying to shift blame, Mudkip. You still didn’t read the article, did you? The Air Force is ADMITTING that they dropped the ball during the Obama Admin, and allowed this man to get the weapons that he did.

The Air Force was NOT in charge of the NYC terrorist, thus they were not responsible for allowing him to get illegal weapons!

And when someone yells Allahu Akbar when committed an act of terror, NO ONE with any sense has to question whether it’s terrorism or not.

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Domino3 Abolish the ATF
11/07/17 1:32 pm

This is the Air Force fault, not Obama.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 2:43 pm

So you agree that anything the military does now is not the Trump admin’s fault?

Domino3 Abolish the ATF
11/07/17 2:48 pm

I never claimed that it was...

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 2:59 pm

Well if the Military bombs North Korea, that would be only under the orders of the Commander in Chief....TRUMP.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 3:32 pm

Most people agree that anything that happens within the military is ultimately the fault of the Commander in Chief. The Buck Stops Here, and all that.

After all, they also get credit for the good stuff, right? Obama got credit for capturing Osama Bin Laden, though he wasn’t there with the SEAL Team when he was taken out.

So, since the AF dropped the ball, doesn’t it ultimately go back to Obama and his admin?

You better believe if anything bad happens, liberals are going to blame Trump for it!

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Domino3 Abolish the ATF
11/07/17 5:43 pm

It really depends what happens. As @justharry mentioned, if we decide to bomb NK, that decision is at the hands of Trump, whereas this can’t be looked at on Obama directly because he can’t keep control of every background check on a weapon. The same as obama really shouldn’t be praised for the Bin Laden take down because all he did was call the hit on it. The plans had been in the works since the bush admin.

Domino3 Abolish the ATF
11/07/17 5:46 pm

Of course liberals will blame Trump, that’s stupid political polarization. You did the same thing by claiming it was Obama’s admin fault in the poll. You can’t hold the other side to a different standard.

Hogoke Constitution
11/07/17 12:07 pm

It wasn't directly by the Obama administration so I wouldn't blame it on them

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 2:43 pm

So you agree that anything that happens in the military now is NOT the problem of the Trump Admin?

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 3:01 pm

Is it the wine or is the above the only line you can think of. It is childish and ridiculous.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:17 pm

What’s that about wine, Harry? That sentence doesn’t even make sense. I’m wondering if YOU’VE been drinking. I don’t drink and have never touched a drop of alcohol. I’m wondering why you feel you have to comment on every thread in this poll, being derogatory toward me?


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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:29 pm

Because your logic is so utterly ridiculous except to you. You certainly sound like you’ve drinking, because you keep repeating the same thing over and over.
You sound bigoted, and certainly not like a Christian Pastor’s wife, who think’s only Republican’s can inhabit the United States.
I think when you are so wrong in your thinking that I have a right, you know, the right to free speech, which I think you blame the Democrats for.
Blame, blame, blame is that what you learned in your husband’s church.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:32 pm

You seem to think you can reply to every thread in a thousand words, why can’t I if I believe you are sooooo misinformed.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:51 pm

Harry, my logic is NOT utterly ridiculous to everyone except me. In fact, 82% of Republicans, 83% of Libertarians, 56% of Independents and 56% overall of SOH users so far AGREE with me. It’s only Dems that have a problem with my statement. Only 5% of them agree with me.

I’m repeating the same thing over and over because YOU keep commenting on the same things over and over in every single thread in this poll. If you don’t want to keep hearing the same answers over and over, don’t keep commenting.

I love how you’re throwing out the word bigoted. Who am I supposedly bigoted against? That seems to be the go to word for some Dems. Notice I say SOME because there are lots of Dems here that don’t call me that, and we get along fine.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:51 pm

You seem to have a BIG problem with the fact that I’m a Christian and a Pastor’s wife. Why is that? And why are you judging me, saying that I only think Republicans can inhabit the US? I have Dem friends here on SOH, and family members that are Dems.

How would you know what I’ve learned in our church? Have you ever stepped foot in our church building, or any church?

Again, with the ad hominem attacks because you have nothing to add to the convo.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:51 pm

Tell me, did you read the link? What am I supposedly misinformed on?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
11/07/17 10:46 am

So now you support gun control 😂

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 10:47 am

I support the laws that are already on the books, DW. I’ve never stated any differently.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
11/07/17 10:50 am

So yes, you support gun control.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 10:51 am

Yes, in cases like this, where the laws are already on the books—that a person that has been abusive is not allowed to have guns. I don’t support taking guns away from law abiding citizens, though.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 10:56 am

Well, that’s the first time it’s ever cut off my words on my end. Sorry about that.

What I was starting to say is that I don’t support further laws that would take guns away from law abiding citizens.

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
11/07/17 10:58 am

But I thought criminals don't follow the laws, so why would this guy follow the gun control laws?

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 11:01 am

Did you not read the article? It’s not whether he would follow the law or not. If the Air Force had followed through, the gun shop would not have been allowed to sell him the guns he was sold. The law would’ve protected those people from him.

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
11/07/17 11:20 am

No, because he would have bought the gun on the black market. I mean, that's at least what Republicans say to justify their opposition to gun control.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 11:36 am

If he had done that, it wouldn’t be the Air Force’s fault, that he had the guns, though, would it? My point is that we should be enforcing the laws on the books!

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
11/07/17 12:36 pm

I don't care "who's fault it is." Either you think gun control (or specific legislation) works or it doesn't.

Carcano Fir Na Dli
11/07/17 1:24 pm

Doc you're looking for a contradiction where one doesn't exist. This is a clear example of gun control not working because it can't even be applied properly.

Carcano Fir Na Dli
11/07/17 1:25 pm

And this poll is specifically about who's fault it is. That is what 4JC is talking about. You can't come here and say you don't care about who's fault it is when that is the basis of this discussion.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 2:59 pm

Thanks, Carcano! And you’re right! I was about to tell DW that APPARENTLY this gun legislation DOESN’T work, since the Air Force dropped the ball and allowed this guy to get the weapons to slaughter these people.

We definitely shouldn’t pass other laws, since even the MILITARY can’t follow the rules of the ones we have!

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 3:06 pm

Ahhhhh. Mrs. PERFECT CHURCH LADY SPOKE. She and NO OTHER REPUBLICAN EVER MADE a MISTAKE. Wow, someone broke a law, therefore we should no have any more laws! Deep, really deep.

Carcano Fir Na Dli
11/07/17 3:14 pm

We shouldn't have any gun laws because they hurt law abiding citizens more than criminals.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:18 pm

It’s not a dodge, DW. YOU brought it up, and I’m saying you have a great point. These gun laws didn’t work. Thanks for pointing that out!

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:19 pm

Harry, why is it that you have to comment on every single thread in this poll? What is compelling you to be derogatory toward me and now screaming at me? What is your problem?

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:20 pm

I’m thinking that all these ad hominem attacks are because you don’t have anything to say about the ISSUE we’re talking about, Harry.

voc I am...what I am
11/07/17 10:39 am

Would you be offended if I asked if the shooting was the Obama administrations fault? It would just be yes or no. I wanted to ask you first. Thanks

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 10:50 am

I would say that the fact this man had guns he shouldn’t have legally had is the Obama admin’s fault for not following through with the laws on the books, just as I would say that all the illegal immigrants that have come and stayed under his admin are the fault of the Obama admin, that didn’t follow those laws either, and protected criminals breaking the law.

The shooting itself, of course, it the shooter’s fault. But his arming was the Obama admin’s fault. Does that answer your question?

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voc I am...what I am
11/07/17 11:58 am

How about if I ask is the recent church shooters ability to purchase a gun the fault of the Obama’s administration?

voc I am...what I am
11/07/17 2:41 pm

I did. What did I miss?

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 3:23 pm

Yes, I didn’t think you had a brain, and now I know you don’t. So, all the children killed by your logic is God’s fault because he made the law THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL.
You better throw God out of your church.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 3:27 pm

Under Obama’s Admin, the Air Force failed to follow procedures when this guy abused his wife and child and did time for it. He was NOT supposed to be able to buy weapons, but they didn’t report him to the FBI so that his name would be flagged. If they had done so, he at least wouldn’t have been able to get the guns so easily.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 3:29 pm

JustHarry, I don’t know what you’re carrying on about. This has nothing to do with God’s laws. This atheist that shot up these Christians was definitely not following God’s law that we should not kill. What IS your point?

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 3:39 pm

My point is that your right, it is stupid and childish to blame God for all the killings in the world. Oooh, some even done by Christians. It’s as stupid and childish to blame a past President for someone in America accidentally screwing up. Do you really believe the Air Force did that on purpose? You are making an ass out of yourself tonight. But your will continue, cause you love to type and use that your a pastor’s wife to explain that God made you do it. I do have to Thank you for raising my blood pressure.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:34 pm

I haven’t blamed God for ANY killings, Harry.

It’s YOU that is so enamored by Obama that you don’t realize that the Commander in Chief is responsible for what happens under him.

No, I don’t believe the AF did it on purpose. But I’m tired of Dems like you saying that it is Republicans’ fault because we won’t allow gun laws, when it’s very clear that this gun law didn’t work and 27 people are dead because it didn’t.

It’s YOU that is having problems controlling yourself (I’ll say it nicer than you did with me). I’ve been very nice to you, have not attacked you, and have tried to stay civil with your being derogatory and even screaming at me.

Also, anyone that has ever studied anger knows that saying that someone else is raising their blood pressure or causing you to be angry is a cop out. YOU are in control of your emotions, or should be. If you’re having problems with your BP, I suggest that you drop it, instead of inserting yourself in every single thread in this poll!

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:37 pm

And for your information, 82% of Republicans, 83% of Libertarians, 56% of Independents and 56% overall of SOH users so far AGREE with me. It’s only Dems that have a problem with my statement.

voc I am...what I am
11/07/17 4:49 pm

What the hell did I just come back to?

Harry, I disagree with her on this, like I usually disagree with her. You don’t have to be mean. You could just choose to scroll by. She’s allowed to have her opinions, we are allowed to disagree with those opinions. It’s when you disagree in the manor you just did that lines get drawn and it closes any dialogue.

voc I am...what I am
11/07/17 4:53 pm

And I’m guilty of doing the same thing to other users, but man, I’m trying.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:14 pm

Thanks so much, Voc! You might want to check out ALL the other threads in this poll. He’s doing this to me in all of them.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:15 pm

He’s inserting himself into all of them and then accusing ME of raising his blood pressure! Lol

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 6:06 pm

For it’s not only dems who disagree with you.

Metamorphosis
11/07/17 9:19 am

Attempting to heal political divisiveness rather than adding to it after a tragedy might be more appropriate for a pastor's wife. I'll reach out to you if you will. We have to start somewhere.

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 9:36 am

I’m sick & tired of liberals trying to take guns away from law abiding citizens every time something like this happens, when it is NOT the fault of those law abiding citizens. It is often those law abiding citizens with guns that actually STOP the person from further killing, as in the last 2 church shootings.

Have you told all those that are posting polls that we should take guns away the same thing you’ve told me?

I tried posting a poll about thoughts & prayers for the people in this tragedy & what happened? Someone else posted a poll about the fact that they were tired of hearing about our thoughts & prayers & that our thoughts & prayers were WORTHLESS because we weren’t DOING anything about the situation.

I take great offense at that, because prayers are ALWAYS worth something—to comfort those that have lost loved ones, etc.

I take offense that they think we, as Christians, should be doing something, when the govt wasn’t following their own laws under Obama’s admin!

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 9:37 am

So when I try to heal political divisiveness by calling for thoughts and prayers, I’m lambasted by liberals. And when I try to point out that it was not the fault of Republicans, I’m lambasted by you. What, EXACTLY, is it you think I should be doing?!

Where were you in my poll about healing? I don’t remember you posting YOUR thoughts or prayers!

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 9:38 am

Where were you in the poll by someone else, where Christians were being lambasted for saying that we believed that thoughts and prayers were the compassionate, healing thing to do?

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 9:53 am

Also, you might be interested to know that this poll is apparently resonating with some people, as it’s already been shared 3 times.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 10:25 am

And the next time you think it’s appropriate to tell ME what’s appropriate as a pastor’s wife, (when you have no experience in that area) maybe you should check out some of my other polls first!

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Metamorphosis
11/07/17 10:53 am

We have had discussions in the past and I thought you might be an individual on the Right that would be willing and open to healing some of the hatred and bitterness that exists between the Right and the Left. I apparently misjudged you. I apologize if I offended you.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 10:58 am

I’m sorry if I came off harshly, Meta. I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

I think I’m on my last nerve about this issue! Lol The fact that I tried to bring some healing by posting a nice thoughts and prayer poll which others seemed to want to shoot down has me on edge, I think.

Let’s start over. What would you like to talk about?

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/07/17 9:11 am

Reality check: Neither Republican gun owners nor Obama are to blame. The first is like blaming all Jeep owners when one gets drunk and kills someone — no connection. The second suggests that a President has superhuman powers of micromanagement and that the Government is completely transformed with each new Administration — unrealistic. IJS

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 9:30 am

And yet people are fine with jumping on Trump when anyone in his admin does anything wrong. Wonder why that is?

SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/07/17 9:35 am

Most people don’t like him is why. ...but the blame game for him is the same. He doesn’t have that much control over his Administration either.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 9:39 am

Thanks for that....at least you’re consistent! Lol

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 8:44 am

I can’t blame Obama’s administration on this. The fault was the Air Force not following procedures that were in place. This could be as simple as a low ranking airman forgetting to send the mail.

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:48 am

Have you ever head the term, The Buck Stops Here?

I bet you’re quick to blame Trump when someone does anything wrong in his admin, aren’t you?

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 4:35 pm

Seriously??

I thought you knew me better than that.

I have had an integral role with discharging soldiers. A president’s administration has no effect on the process.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:57 pm

I didn’t realize you were even in the military, jlong.

Ok, let me ask you this—if this had fallen through the cracks during the last 10 months, do you have any doubt that the MSM, almost all Dems, a lot of Republican politicians, and all celebrities would be be EVISCERATING Trump over it?

My entire point is that the laws weren’t followed—and yet Dems want us to pass more laws, when the ones we have aren’t followed. This keeps happening—we find that the FBI didn’t follow up or the military didn’t report someone, etc.

It is NOT that we need NEW laws. It’s that those in charge of making sure those laws are followed need to do their jobs so that people won’t keep getting murdered.

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jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 5:04 pm

The president’s administration has nothing to do with military discharges. This is done by lowly jag lawyers and commanders. It does not even reach the department level, unless the case is high profile ( think Bowe bergdahl and Bradley manning).

If the MSM tried to say it was Trumps fault anyone who knows how the system works would be quick to call BS as I am doing now. A discharge, even a dishonorable discharge, is a common everyday event. Granted dishonorable are rarer, but they happen regularly.

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 5:15 pm

Army National Guard 22 years,13 years of that active, with 3 overseas deployments to Iraq 2003, Kyrgyzstan 2013, Cuba 2016-2017.

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 5:26 pm

I do agree the government is horrible at following its own procedures. It has become too big and authoritative.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:33 pm

Did you read the article? It’s not even about his dishonorable discharge. It’s about the felonies he committed and the fact that they were supposed to put his name in the NCIC database so the FBI would flag his name so he couldn’t get guns.

He abused his wife and cracked his son’s skull!

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:38 pm

And the Trump ADMIN (Mattis) is now being tasked with cleaning up the mess of the Obama Admin, to make sure there aren’t a lot more military members that have guns they shouldn’t have. If that doesn’t tell you that the responsibility stops at the Admin, I don’t know what does.

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 6:04 pm

Mattis is assigning the task down to the appropriate level, the inspector generals of the different services. He is not cleaning up but seeing if there is anything to clean up.

The inspector generals will return with a report that this or that procedure is in place, verbiage here or there could be clarified, and how this single incident was able to slip through the cracks.

You are really harping this like the MSM does Trump’s tweets. Reading way too much into it that is.

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 6:09 pm

And let me just say that blaming anybody but the shooter and Satan in his heart is totally wrong and effectively gives a defense to this animal.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 6:23 pm

Please tell me you’ve read the article so I don’t have to copy/paste all the pertinent info from it that shows it’s not just me that feels this is serious, and that they’re investigating to see how many more former military members might have fallen through the cracks, and about the Democratic politicians that are demanding answers and blaming the AF for this.

No, it’s no one’s fault but the shooter that he shot the church members. But the AF allowed him to get the weapons to do it.

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jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 6:33 pm

Yes! The AF!! We agree they messed up.

I did read the article. That is how I knew Mattis was going to pass this down to the inspector generals. I broke down what they would look for on how to fix it IF it needs to be fixed.

I have seen several IG investigations in my 22 years and know how they proceed. Granted, none of the ones I have been part of were initiated by the DOD, they still follow the same process.

jlong105 Indiana
11/07/17 6:37 pm

Although if we read further in your article, the Navy can be blamed as well.

“The Air Force does not operate prisons and instead sends troops convicted of crimes to Army or Navy jails. Kelley served his sentence at a Navy brig in San Diego. Navy regulations do not require a fingerprint card and conviction summary to be forwarded to the FBI after inmate in-processing.”

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:02 pm

Thanks, Jlong. There are others here in this poll that are saying it’s NOT the AF’s fault at all.

All I know is that all the news outlets—CNN, USA Today, BBC, NY Times, are ALL saying that the Air Force dropped the ball and allowed this to happen.

I have to get to bed in a few minutes. I was afraid that the notification for this thread would drop off my list and I just wanted to touch base with you again before going to bed and let you know I didn’t forget you or lose interest. Just don’t have time. I’ve been in this one poll all day long, while trying to take care of my 2 year old granddaughter, so I’m bushed. Thanks for the convo!

And thanks, also, for your service! I really appreciate it!

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Think Lovin Life
11/07/17 8:44 am

4JC ... Teflon Barry can’t be held accountable for his out of control administration, are you nuts?

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:47 am

😂😜😂🤣😜 What WAS I thinking?!

Think Lovin Life
11/07/17 10:15 am

4JC ... you know that I don’t really think you’re nuts, right?!

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 10:22 am

Yes, I knew you were teasing! And I was teasing right back—thus all the laughing/sticking out my tongue/emojis!

iceberg124
11/07/17 8:43 am

Thanks Obama

Reply
4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:12 am

💠 4JC asked:
11/07/2017
The Air Force, under Obama’s admin, failed to follow procedures which allowed the Texas church shooter to obtain firearms he shouldn’t have had. So this shooting is NOT the fault of Rep gun owners, but the Obama admin who didn’t enforce laws we had!

Agree
Disagree

www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/11/06/the-air-force-says-it-failed-to-follow-procedures-allowing-texas-church-shooter-to-obtain-firearms/?utm_term=.b24f2a06fcc1


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ptellini
11/07/17 8:14 am

I think you forgot to mention that a law abiding citizen stopped the shooter using a gun 😜

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:46 am

Yeah, that’s a totally different poll! Lol

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 3:31 pm

No, the Air Force, under the Commander and Chief Trump, failed to follow laws that were implemented by the past President Obama.

ptellini
11/07/17 4:03 pm

So you’re saying that President Obama actually did something beneficial to the United States? Wow…

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:09 pm

Yes, he served two term and did many great things. Like get bills passed through Congress. Trump did too. He named lots of post offices. Signed lots of Executive orders. Played lots of golf at Mar-a-Lago.
Pissed off North Korea.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:18 pm

Seriously, yes the Air Force screwed up.
We know about this one because it had bad consequences. Yes, it should be investigated and fixed. But blame Trump or Obama? Why, it’s been tonight’s circus show, of a women who just won’t let it go.

ptellini
11/07/17 4:20 pm

Tell me something that he did that was actually beneficial to United States.
It is so cute to see that you are so concerned about how a tyrannical dictator feels about our country.
You are so polarized it’s pathetic.

ptellini
11/07/17 4:25 pm

Your Obama would probably give North Korea 500 million in faith that they don’t start a war lol

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:28 pm

Harry, it’s YOU that won’t let it go. That’s why you’ve come into MY poll and commented very derogatorily toward me in every single thread in the poll.

YOU’RE the reason it keeps going on—because you keep using ad hominem attacks against me under every person’s comments. If you have a problem with it and me, either bug out of the poll or put me on ignore.

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ptellini
11/07/17 4:31 pm

Wow…he is even more ignorant than I thought.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:40 pm

If you don’t want me replying, tough, SOH allows me to answer any topic as many times as I like, it’s the LAW. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you hate all Democrat’s, then ignore all of us. Then you can pontificate to the choir.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:41 pm

Check out all the different times he has attacked me, Ptellini! He has the gall to accuse me of raising HIS blood pressure!

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:42 pm

Ptellini, I assume by he, you mean Trump!

ptellini
11/07/17 4:42 pm

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

ptellini
11/07/17 4:42 pm

I was talking about you dumbass.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:43 pm

Harry, I’m not the one that can’t take the heat. YOU’RE the one that’s saying your blood pressure is out of control. You really ought to drop it before you have a heart attack, if this is upsetting you THAT much!

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:44 pm

I usually attack people who make really stupid comments. Tonight, your on top of your game.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:44 pm

I don’t hate all Democrats, Harry. I get along with most of them here on the app just fine, because they remain civil, for the most part, whereas you don’t seem to know how to do that.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 4:45 pm

Harry, you attack people who you consider are making stupid comments because you don’t want to actually talk about and attack the ISSUE instead of the person.

Why do you have to attack anyone, whether you think they make stupid comments are not? Seems like that’s a character flaw in you.

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ptellini
11/07/17 4:46 pm

The heavy irony is that 4JC gets along with practically everyone.
What does that say about you I wonder…

ptellini
11/07/17 4:46 pm

He must be a liberal. That would explain a lot…

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:55 pm

So ptellini,
You agree that because Obama passed a law regarding that anyone in the service that gets a dishonorable discharge, should not be allowed to buy a weapon, and later on on a Service makes a clerical error and a dishonorable discharge is not reported correctly. It is either the President, who was in office or the current Presidents, where the error occurred is responsible for the error.
Neither one is responsible. It was a human error, which happens by humans in Gov’t, business, and Home. Neither President is responsible.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:57 pm

Wow, must be a liberal! You caught me. So no liberals allowed in that church. 😢

ptellini
11/07/17 4:57 pm

I could actually agree with that.

ptellini
11/07/17 4:58 pm

Well, you are a jackass. Why don’t you go troll elsewhere.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:59 pm

Isn’t that the issue we are talking about all night. Then, what are we talking about?

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 4:59 pm

I don’t have to.

ptellini
11/07/17 5:00 pm

Apparently, we are talking about your persistent attacking of 4JC.
You sound like a child.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 5:01 pm

I thought you were agreeing that neither President was to blame! Silly me.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 5:02 pm

You are talking about that.

ptellini
11/07/17 5:04 pm

Be an adult and leave 4JC alone.

ptellini
11/07/17 5:05 pm

4JC he might have a point. Obama has screwed this country up so much that he really doesn’t need to be blamed for more than what he’s done 😜

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 5:08 pm

Wow, she needs a man to defend her.
Yes, Obama did a lot of things wrong, but this is not one of them.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 5:10 pm

Harry, you think this is about a dishonorable discharge? You STILL haven’t read the article I linked, have you?

Even Democratic politicians are decrying this, saying that it’s horrific that this happened, and Mattis is being called on to check and see how many OTHER former military members have fallen through he cracks and have guns they shouldn’t have!

So the current ADMIN is being tasked with cleaning up what the former ADMIN let fall through the cracks! If that’s not telling you who is at fault, I don’t know what would.

It would help if you would read the article. At least then you would know what this is all about—and it’s NOT about a dishonorable discharge—it’s about CRIMES this man committed and why he shouldn’t have been allowed to buy guns in the first place.


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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 5:11 pm

Thanks 4JC, that’s all I was arguing.

JustHarry FL
11/07/17 5:18 pm

You are wrong. This was one mistake that caused horrible consequences. Again, in Government, millions of things probably slip through the cracks. It’s not the lawmakers fault. If you don’t know about it, you can’t fix it. But, you just can’t let it go that Obama must be at fault. It’s life, get over it.

ptellini
11/07/17 5:25 pm

Maybe are just so used to Obama screwing stuff up.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 6:00 pm

Harry, the article is saying that it might NOT just be on mistake. Mattis is being tasked with checking to see how many OTHER military members might have fallen through the cracks and have guns they shouldn’t have. There is a big investigation ongoing. You really should read the article.

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JustHarry FL
11/07/17 7:03 pm

Read the article, will respond tomorrow. (iPad out of juice, Wonder why).
Please have a good night, I apologize for my many over the line comments. I think we both are a bit passionate about our point’s of view.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/07/17 8:13 pm

I’m burnt out tonight and about to go to bed. Thanks, Harry. I hope you have a good night, also. And thanks a LOT for the apology. I was getting REALLY close to putting you on ignore, which I hate to do to anyone, but will if I feel I’m being constantly attacked. I’ve spend ALL DAY LONG in this one poll, and most of the comments have been with you, Harry.

This was in addition to taking care of my 2 year old granddaughter today, so I’m bushed. I don’t think I’m going to be up to all this again tomorrow, while watching her again while her parents are out of town with her other grandfather, whom we just found out yesterday only has months to live. Please give me a break tomorrow.

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