Show of Hands

Faith is by definition believing in something without evidence I’m not sure what your saying

Is faith a reliable path to truth?

Crap this was supposed to be a continuation of my reply post below... dammittohell!! More humor. Ha!

Why?

It’s just what feels right to me. I believe in past life regression.

I agree, jmw

The Jewish faith is pretty iffy about an afterlife or what exactly it is if I’m not mistaken

Too cute, henry... that’d be cool 😎

😄 I like her 😄

Good one! Yes I do believe in life after love...painful as it is. And, check it out. This video is from 1998, and Cher is rockin’ the black nail thing that all the actresses are into the last couple of years. She’s a super trend setter! Or, maybe I just noticed them lately. I know they’ve been a goth thing for yeeears, but I just started wearing mine like that.

Not if it’s something shitty like the underworld lol

Unless it had full leather bodysuit Kate beckensale from underworld

😂😂

You guys! 😆

Until the app ceases to exist. But even then, the question will no doubt see life after the death of the app.

Deep thoughts with FIAT

That is what caught my attention too. I put that to people not being honest with their profile.

Or not yet being certain of where they stand.

Or not paying attention to the question and blindly answering. 5% is easily due to human error.

True. Certainly possible.

It's well documented Christ exists. I certainly believe in his teachings about love and forgiveness. Is his version of God and Heaven true...I am less sure. So it is possible to believe in Christ with being certain about life after death.

Yes, joe

@JoeRoberts by what evidence and for what audience?

Also this app has been around for quite a while now things change and people change. They may not have updated what profile

That is a fair point about being around for a while. But I still think some people are not being honest with their profile and not just in this question but across the board. This is just an easy question to notice it

You have no basis to think that though... why would anyone intentionally lie?

If he is who he says he is, everything he says is true. If he’s not, then he can only be seen as crazy....and not as just a good teacher

Oh come on, you know what they mean don’t be difficult.

I also thought the question could have been more clear lol

The question is perfectly clear lol

Interesting you mention this. I have identical twin nieces. The very first time my Mom & I saw them, my Mom commented that Beth was an old soul. Right before she said that, I had just had the exact same thought. It was in her eyes. You could just tell she’d been here before. Now, her sister, Bri, is pretty new. The twins are 24 yrs old now. I’m an old soul. I think I’m on one of my last go rounds. Ha!

Basically, you described pretty much what I believe. We’re destined to come back until we learn all the ‘lessons.’ I suffer from depression very badly, and I have wanted to kill myself many, many times. But then, I remember that if I don’t stick this out, I’ll have to repeat it. No way in hell, man, no way! So I’m hanging in there with love from family and friends and god. 😊

Haha!

Great answer! :)

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And why not?

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That is true according to the Christian faith, but humor me this; God is an omnipotent being, yes?

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My belief is that if He wants to judge me and decide my ultimate faith, then he should do so on my actions and how I have lived my life, rather than simply what I believe in.

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Making us with a different interpretation of good actions than him yet still requiring us to follow him would be a massive dick move.

And saying you must believe in Jesus to get into heaven then creating people that would have a 0% of even HEARING about Jesus or Christianity in their entire lives is downright evil.

So therefore unless god judges us by our interpretation of good deeds and nothing else then he’s a shitty god and I wouldn’t follow him even if he were proven true. I have no idea why you would want to follow a god like that

Excellent point Henry

Thank you, henry. You cover some points I didn’t get to.

Also, just because my “interpretation” of morals isn’t directly from the 10 Commandments, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. I still believe murder, stealing from people, etc is very wrong and I try to act accordingly in my life.

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Toootal sidestep around everything I said

Also “it has to be objective and it has to be god who decides what it is because I just can’t handle it being subjective” is not a good argument

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Except the people that made up the laws in society have been proven to exist.

I perfectly understood and responded to your statement.

On top of that your definition of god is evil at worst and at best a piece of shit as I’ve already explained. I wouldn’t follow his laws even if he were proven to exist in that form.

That’s not to say I wouldn’t follow any “version” of god. Just not the one your describing because of the reasons I’ve stated

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Threatening someone with something that has no evidence backing it up is what’s foolish lol

It’s like me telling you I have the ability to rain meterors down on you if you don’t give me $10. I doubt your gonna give me the money or even worry about it because there’s no reason at all to believe it.

If God’s morals are the only morals then why do I along with everyone else have different ones?

And yes why on earth would I follow a god that I believed to be not good??

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No. There is not.

I don’t ignore anything I would love for there to be actual evidence for him existing but there is not.

When did you choose to believe murder was wrong?

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Hahahahaha

Sorry about that. It was “the evidence is all around you” it’s just that that is such a bad argument and I hear it semi-often.

But I shouldn’t have laughed

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“If God’s morals are the only morals then why do I along with everyone else have different ones?”

The gift of choice.

If you prefer to be your own god and live without Him, you can. The problem is in the afterlife, good and evil will be polarized.
Every good thing comes from the Father per James 1:17
Light and darkness- separated, peace and anguish- separated etc. When you choose God, you get all of him and nothing else. When you choose to reject God, you also reject all he wants to give you. It’s a package deal. None of us deserve what he has to give:
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23
But thank God, He rescued us. Next verse says, “and all (who choose to be) are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is Christ Jesus” Romans 3:24
You have given the right to choose not to be rescued, but be warned: Eternity is a long time to think about the choice you made.

Kscott- 1) random chance
2) even if I or anyone doesn’t know what happened that does not mean it was god. It is not evidence.
Look up god of the gaps fallacy that’s why it’s a terrible argument

(God of gaps fallacy is basically saying I don’t know what is causing something so I will attribute it to god)

Amy- what about people that never meet someone that tells them to believe in god? Because if no one ever tells you to believe in the Christian god (either through writing or in person) you won’t believe in it.

Those people are dammed for all of eternity even though they never had a chance for salvation?

Why do we bother arguing still about whether God exists or not? It’s obvious that neither side will ever be convinced that the other is right-so what’s the point of debating?

Not really arguing about the existence of god...

Well I’m not anyways

Some of us regret ever having commented on the post as we are constantly being notified of your “discussion.” Perhaps y’all could take this up in PMs, for the sake of others?

I know Henry, I’m right there with you dude...
This isn’t really meant toward you, more so on the other side, as we’re just trying to say that our morals are not based upon God.

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Last comment from me:
Every thing you said in that last post kscott was dead wrong. It’s clear you don’t understand evolution because it has absolutely been proven.

I hate to tell you, kscott, but the “holy” bible is NOT inerrant and has been SHOWN not to be. If you truly wanted to educate yourself, you could read a book called “Who Wrote the Bible?” I’ve read it, and it’s quite educational and full of actual research and facts. But I know that won’t happen bc to actually learn facts would throw you for a loop.

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I’m not a “kid.” I’m in my 50s. Went to parochial school from K-8th grade, and can quote bible scripture like nobody’s business. I’m not referring to science at all. I hate to tell you but you’re wrong, wrong, wrong about the bible. But heaven forbid, you learn anything factual and actually researched. Try reading some of the research you claim ‘proves’ the bible to be inerrant, and you’ll learn it’s really not. There are books that weren’t included; all of the events are jumbled up. It’s not in any order, and it was assembled by governments and leaders to keep their people in line. Are there facts in the bible? Of course, but it’s far from inerrant. And, what happened to your last comment, anyway?

Oh, and everything they’ve been taught is wrong? Says who? You? How the hell do you know what they’ve been taught? Who died and made you the almighty authority of science?

Every one of your posts makes it clear you don’t know what you’re talking about

Mine or kscotts?

Very much Scott

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You actually don’t know how to or choose not too apply logic and reason... that’s why you chose faith over things that have been proven

Not that that’s necessarily “bad” live your life however you want. But don’t go spreading blatantly false information.

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You’re hilarious, kscott. What on earth gives you the idea that I’ve had a rotten time in my life? I actually have a beautifully blessed life. And what hostility? Patronizing me won’t change the fact that I question what you seem to think are your omnipotent “opinions?” Your opinions are based on what you’ll allow yourself to read. You base what you read or don’t read on what supports your faith. God forbid you read something that might shake your faith. Because if it doesn’t support heaven as you expect it to be with streets of gold and little cherubic angels all eternally worshipping the god in which you believe, what then? And I do believe in god, just not heaven and hell, as defined by your “inerrant” bible.

My advanced knowledge of the subjects allowed me a greater insight to their flaws and able to break apart the flawed assumptions in each one.

Do you have any idea how arrogant you sound? Like none of the others in this thread have any advanced knowledge worth acknowledging. We don’t believe what you do. End of story. You’re not going to change our opinions or what we’ve learned with your arrogance.

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Absolutely not. Was raised as one, but then I saw the light.

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Oh my good lord in heaven, give it a rest. You don’t know anything about me. How dare you. For all you know, you’ve been deceived. All you have is your faith and beliefs and no proof of what you’ve asserted; although I believe you have the degrees you claim to have. I was raised as a Christian, was baptized and so on. I’ve lived your faith, but you have no idea what I believe and in what I put my faith. So I know you are not educated in what I place my faith. So why can’t you just drop it and move the hell on? Unlike you, I’m not on here trying to convince anyone that they can only be “saved” by the blood of Jesus Christ, yada, yada, yada. You still never addressed questions to you regarding the people in the world who have NEVER, and most likely, will NEVER hear “your word of god.” What? Do they just all go to hell? Stop wasting your time and ours on here and perhaps for minister to as many of those as you can reach, the way Jesus told you to do.

Don’t bother responding. I’m blocking you. You’re just obnoxious with your arrogance, not a Christian trait either. Ba-bye!

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Yes but since it’s clear you don’t want to hear facts I’m not sure I want to try.

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Ok the facts are evolution has been PROVED and neither a god in general nor a specific one has any logical evidence and religion by definition is faith based meaning it has no logical backing.

Those are both facts.

There is no such thing as “historical science” or “kinda” those are both just ad box terms created by creationists to rationalize and try to come up with some kind of argument. The facts are we have observed evolution at all stages and there is hard evidence/proof that species over log periods of time mutate and change and can turn into new species if enough small changes happen

“Kinds”*

Also to throw in the Bible is absolutely not inerrant and it’s a little ridiculous to suggest it is. Which is possibly one of the reasons katarina got so angry

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Henry, I was never angry. You just can’t have a rational discussion with someone who’s so arrogant. She thought she was dealing with kids who she apparently believes have no sense.

Lol no Scott you are wrong.

IF you have any clarifying questions I’d be happy to answer them but everything I’ve said is true

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Hahhahahahahahahahaha

Now you deserve the laugh.

Katarina is correct you are blindly arrogant over things you know nothing about despite how much you think you know about them

Scott, as much as it pains me to say it, religion is way, way, way, WAY closer to being indoctrination than science is.

Sorry bud.

I thought kscott was a she. In any case, Christianity reminds me of how North Koreans are indoctrinated by their leader. Blind sheep following whatever their leaders and, of course, their interpretations of the bible tell them. Individual Christians have many interpretations of the bible. I’m not trying to be insulting. But that’s what it reminds me of. There are millions of fine Christian people, many of whom are my family and friends. It’s just not exactly what I believe.

Yes thank you. That’s what made me laugh

Put it this way: a person alone on earth given enough time could verify and prove everything in science including evolution (assuming the 4.5 billionish years that happened before humans still happened the same way)

A person alone on earth for ANY amount of time will never come the the same conclusions you have about god. They certainly would not come up with the Christian god or write the Bible as there IS. NO. EVIDENCE. for it.

I believe in god. I believe he comes to every religion as a different deity. I believe the ultimate goal of all religions is basically the same.
I believe in evolution AND that god created it all.
I believe in afterlife & spirits, bc I feel them around me.
I believe in reincarnation, bc I remember past lives, only a couple. That’s a glitch. Ur not supposed to remember.
I believe most stories in the bible, but that they’re parables.
I don’t believe Jesus died for our sins. I believe w/ all my heart that he came to earth to show us HOW to live. I believe he performed miracles metaphysically, & I believe we’re capable of them, too. They just require too much brain power, & we’re too lazy. We’re also too lazy to make choices based on love & not our possessions & our ego the way Jesus & god intended. Christians need a fall back plan of we’re all sinners, bc they can’t accept that they always have a choice & can make the godly one.
God & Jesus are one, as is the spirit that lives in us all.

That oughta throw y’all for a loop! 😝

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Not but we can change a bacteria’s environment in a lab and see how over time, as the bacteria reproduces, it changes and adapts to its environment through mutation, etc. And THAT, my friend, is a scientific experiment that supports the Theory of Evolution.

If you want to believe that God *poofed* man into existence, you go right ahead, just don’t be trying to change classroom curriculum according to your religious beliefs.

In addition I suggest you study something called the Cosmic Background Radiation (or CMB), as it’s the radiation all over the universe that is left over from the Big Bang.

Here’s the thing Kscott. Is every scientific theory right? No, they’re not. Could our understanding of gravity be wrong? Yes, it could. Could our understanding of how man got on this planet be wrong? Yes, it could. A lot of scientific theories and laws COULD be wrong, but as of today, many, many, many of our theories and laws have held up under experimentation and scrutiny, and because of that, we will continue to believe that they are true until we can find information that requires us to modify our laws and theories.

And that is where science and religion fundamentally differ. Religion isn’t met to change with new information, whereas science is. And that is why religion is widely regarded as BELIEF, whereas science is regarded in a more truthful sense.

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Listen Kscott, I’m not saying that the Big Bang theory IS right, because it very well might not be. But at least science has the ability and the duty to change and adapt to the truth about what we can experiment and predict, whereas your religion is trying to draw facts and conclusions based on a book that was written over a thousand years ago.

And in response to your inquiry to experiments, that’s because there are two subtypes of evolution: macroevolution, and microevolution. Microevolution has been proven many, many times in labs, as I said, with bacteria and other organisms. Macroevolution can be found to be true by looking at fossil records as well as testing for common DNA among different species, etc.

Also, have you tested that theory that a bacterium will remain a bacterium over millions of years no matter what? Because I would really, really like to see that proof...

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Why does the very essence of belief violate the laws of physics?

And yes, sorry to say I don’t think there’s too many people running with their hands up to say that the Bible is a scientifically accurate book...

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Listen Kscott, as much as I would love to debate a science vs religion standpoint, I can’t do this anymore. Science isn’t meant to be debated against religion. They’re two fundamentally different things. I obviously am not going to be able to defend parts of science well enough because I am an 18 year old freshman in college, I’m not a scientist (actually planning on being a finance major). But I do know this: the entire purpose of science is to try to explain what happens in the universe and why it happens, so that much we can make predictions about what might happen in the future. Scientists try to do this by testing claims and gathering evidence for and/or against the claim. The nature of science is truth-seeking through evidence. Religion is not meant to do this. Religion is meant to be a cultural system of behaviors and practices, and beliefs that relate humanity to the supernatural. It doesn’t need evidence, it’s not meant to. Fundamentally science and religion differ.

I was referencing this line: “You can’t claim in the same breath that the Big Bang is the closest we have to an answer and call it science while the very essence of the belief violates the the known laws of physics.”

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You definitely have your right to believe in whatever you want, and you’re right that that is a way Christianity is different. But I wouldn’t necessarily want to go around trying to say that’s the objective truth to the other 6.352 billion people in the world who aren’t Christian and don’t believe that, who have their own religions and their own texts which are probably equally as viable and believable as yours.

The Big Bang as well as evolution has evidence and has been proven.
They don’t call something a theory in science unless it is proven.


And politik just so you know macro and micro evolution are the exact same thing. Micro is just over a smaller time sale and macro is a large time scale. Same exact process drives both

No, henry, theories are just that, theories. They’re not proven. They’re a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

A theory and law differ only in that a law explains “what” happens, and a theory explains “why” something happens. It doesn’t have anything to do with provability or anything. It’s a very common misconception.

Yes it does why would it not?

All scientific theories have been proven by overwhelming evidence

Katerina what you described was a hypothesis. A testable idea of what could happen.

A scientific theory is proven. Theory means something different in science than in colloquial use

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Holy shit dude

You can keep saying whatever you want ignoring reality. Just know it’s so obvious you disagree because you don’t actually understand what these things are. No one could say this many wrong things in a row otherwise.

I wish I could explain them but you don’t want to know because you don’t want your world view to be changed (another major difference between science and religion)

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Oh look, another post with absolutely no substance just telling me I’m wrong. No explanation as to why because that would be too hard for you. No explanation as to why you said the Bible is inerrant when it so clearly isn’t. No explanation as to why evolution is indoctrination because it so clearly isn’t.
No explanation as to why you disbelieve things with evidence and fully believe things without evidence simply because someone told you too.

No answers to any questions and no asking real questions of your own to better understand the other case

Not only is it clear you don’t understand. It’s clear you really don’t want too. Your side of the conversation has not been one including any logical or rational explanations. Faith is more important than logic for you. And that’s fine. For you. But don’t go trying to pass that faith off as proven when the exact opposite in many cases is what’s actually proven.

The fact of the matter is that everything I’ve said could be independently verified by a man that has never had any contact with humans spoken, written or otherwise.

And nothing you’ve said can do the same.

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I’m going to pretend you didn’t ask a pointed irrelevant question and just give you evidence for Big Bang:
As expected at the time Uber massive amounts of energy permeated everything. This energy would have slowly dissipated and thinned. We can and have observed the remnants of this cosmic background radiation and it is at the levels now we’d expect if this happened back then.

We have literally taken pictures of the universe at 400,000 years old (I can explain this if you don’t understand how) and we can map the cosmic radiation and where it would go and detect this radiation.

Another piece of evidence is the increasing acceleration of the expansion of space. Meaning everything is getting farther from eachother which would lead back to everything being in one point.
Gravitational waves are also being used to gather evidence however their existence was just proven recently so it’s still being worked on

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What exploded? All of the energy that makes up the universe
Why? I don’t know.

What is gravity? There is a gravitational field that permeates all of space. The amount each object interacts with the field (determined by its mass) determines the force due to gravity it exerts on other objects (also depending on how far apart they are)

Think of it as a small indentation on a flat piece of paper a ball placed on the paper will accelerate towards the indent. Similar to that but in 4 dimensions not 2.

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You do not need to know what exactly caused the Big Bang to know that it happened.

And it’s really more of a sudden expansion from a singular point than an explosion just so you know

I said I’d explain that and you just laugh at me instead of asking for an explanation are you fucking serious? This is why people don’t like talking with you

Here’s the explanation not because you deserve it but because I don’t want to hear your bitching that I never gave it to you:
The universe is 13.8 billion years old. We can look into it’s past by looking very far away because light takes so long to travel. So if we see light from a galaxy 3 billion light years away we are viewing that galaxy as it looked 3 billion years ago. (Actually a little longer but I’m not going to get into that it’s too complicated for you apparently)

So by taking data on the cosmic background radiation of places far away we get 400,000 year old “baby picture” of the universe

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I don’t know. Again it is not necessary know what caused it to know that it happened

Possible hypothesis would include it came from another universe or appeared through quantum tunneling. Or even god would be a possibility. But since there’s no hard evidence for any of those I’m going with I don’t know still

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And you started all of the rudeness. All of everyone else’s was due to frustration with you and how you were acting.

We know the age because of mapping the cosmic background radiation.

We know how far away another galaxy is because we can measure it...

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The reason why the Big Bang happened is important for knowledge sake but it is not important for determining that it DID happen.

And I can say it happened naturally because if something happens it follows the laws of physics by definition.
So either it follows the laws as we currently understand them and we haven’t figured out how or there are rules governing it that we have not discovered yet. And yes god is possible because it isn’t possible to prove a negative. But if god existed it would be because the laws of the universe allow for a god in the first place.

In addition for the age of the universe it cannot be younger than the oldest thing in it. We can gather information of the some of the first supernovae through their after effects. This also gives insight on the age.

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I just explained how it’s proven I’m not repeating things.

And I’m not discussing the BASIC physics involved in determining how far away something is. It’s so ridiculous that you’d even suggest that would be a difficulty it ONCE AGAIN shows your utter lack of knowledge about these subjects

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God cannot exist if it is impossible for god to exist. That’s why he must fit within the laws of physics.

Even if god caused the Big Bang the Big Bang happened. That’s why the cause is not important when determining only if something happened

Henry, politika...let her ‘believe’ whatever the hell she wants to and ignore her. She obviously has nothing else to do whatsoever. I think kscott is a she, but I have no proof. Lol!

The definition of ‘theory’ according to Webster...
Definition of theory for English Language Learners. : an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events. : an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true. : the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject.

Note the 2nd section “not known or proven to be true”

Just sayin’

Katerina as I explained before a theory in colloquial use is different than a scientific theory. A scientific theory is proven and back with overwhelming evidence.

Such theories include evolution and the Big Bang like we’ve been discussing but to show you how theories mean proven other theories include germ theory cell theory heliocentric theory and gravitational theory. None of those would be argued whatsoever and it’s the same with the other two

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I’m repeating the definition of something that people don’t seem to understand chill the fuck out with that

Kscott, I’m sorry but it’s not possible for a debate to take place when the people debating are not rational. If you can’t agree on terms of convention, then there’s no point in debating at all.

You don’t get to chance the definition of a scientific theory because you don’t like it.

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We absolutely have seen evolution happening. And I haven’t talked about abiogenesis once not sure where that came from.

And I’ve already explained the Big Bang I’m not doing it again

You’re just not listening. And it’s probably because you don’t want to. Goodbye

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In case it wasn’t clear from the goodbye. You are a lost cause I’m done talking to you about this

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Already read a lot of them. Most of not all of the creationist arguments are poorly constructed, illogical and ad hoc.

That’s why I’m not a creationist

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Yes it does, surely you know what it means.

Death is the opposite of life. Life and death are states that can’t persist at the same time. It makes no sense.

Interesting thought, wert. I like it. 😉

That’s why they use the word after and not the word simultaneously...

@cluney... and stop calling me Shirley.

🤓

Thats my theory too! But all things must come to end so that would also end at some point

Schmuck

Evidence and reality.

Cite, OK then what’s your reality❓Mine is my faith is the substance of eternal life, but it’s reality can’t yet be seen, till we leave this current reality.

You missed the other part.

Evidence.

Still all dressed up with no place to go, eh Princey❓

There's no place to go, shippy. No evidence of it at all. Besides churches at least, but you know I don't go to those.

Speaking of churches and evidence...can we now throw our the idea of one always being safe in The House of The Lord? I think today disproved that idea quite well.

Prince, because you focus on the here & now, your saying what happened to those good people in Texas was they’re tragic final end & it’s all over for them, which is the your greatest error, saying one can’t make a change in their life, to have eternal life. Matthew 10:32-33, Jesus said, “Whoever acknowledges me before others on earth, I will acknowledge them before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others here on earth, I will disown before my father in heaven.”
For a non believer like you they are forever gone, for believers like them & myself, it’s their new beginning already in eternity with the God, because his son, made it possible for them to do so ! I know who I believe in, & I’m convinced God through Christ, is able to keep me, because of what I’ve committed to them, before I leave this earth.

*tips fedora* god is dead normies REEEEEEEEEEE

Whys that a negative thing? If people take comfort in believing there's life after death then let them believe it. Ya know?

You won’t see that until after you die. JS! Lol

If Atheists are correct they would not exist to have a “I told you so moment” lol. I truly hope their is something after this, I really do. But no hard evidence as of yet, sadly.

JS?

And it's not like I don't believe to be smug. Again I hope there is something afterwords

Pascal's Wager is so cliche, gorilla.

JS means “Just saying.”

I’m just pointing out that this is something you have to take on faith because none of us can die and then come back to tell about it. You either believe it on faith or you don’t and then it’s too late if you’re wrong.

....

Ok let me clarify, I see no evidence of any life after we die. Hope that clears up any misunderstandings of my view.

My mistake, gorilla. Apologies.

Pascal's Wager will come up in this poll eventually, though. I can tell you that. Theists are a record on repeat....

No worries. Ya I do hope something is their.. I don’t want to “END”, but like I said, see nothing to prove it, and the more I research the more I see that religion was setup as a means of “control”. I mean why would a god care if I slapped around what he endowed me with anyway? Lol.. it’s the “Invisible judge watching me! Kind of like Santa, but at least “Santa” made good with the gifts in this life! Lol

All you anti-eternal lifers, just keep on denying, till we all😵croak, then I’ll see ya on the other side, you can try to explain, how we all got there😳

Welll.... IF you see us, if it is true, you should really worry about where YOU are? 👹👹👹👹👹

That’s what I was going to say, Gorilla. Shippy, I don’t think they’re going to be the same place we are, sad to say!

4JC, did you forget the Rich-man & Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31❓They could communicate together from two totally different locations, a good one(Lazarus) & a bad one(Rich man).

www.gotquestions.org

“What should we learn about the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16?”

What an AWESOME site, Shippy! I had never heard of it, and am seriously considering applying to be a writer. Are you saying I should input the question you asked into that site and there is a good article about that?

I admit I hadn’t thought about the rich man and Lazarus. Many people see it as just a parable, but I’ve heard that since it says a CERTAIN rich man and names Lazarus, that it is possibly not just a parable.

If it IS so that those in hell will be able to see us in Heaven and the differences, how much more in torment will they be, knowing what they have given up, and that they have no chance of changing their circumstances—that it’s eternally too late, and no matter how much they regret it and beg, that eternity will get no better for them. That’s a REALLY sobering thought!


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4JC, yes just put the statement in the website search box & it will pull up the article as I stated it, or use my favorite, Google. Happy hunting👍🏻

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4JC, I don't have faith in anything. I believe in what I can see.

ksott, I watched the compelling video of Anton LaVey, the founder of the church of Satan, recanting his lifelong denial of the truth of God & Christ’s power, while embracing Satan. Prince & others like him, will probably will still disavow or dismiss the video, as they have all eternal truth, God help them because, Satan isn’t going too !

bower, “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.” 1Corinthians 1:18

Cool, cool. Good for you.

www.gotquestions.org

What does the Bible mean when it says , “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’”?”

Listen, maybe there is a God, I don't claim to know..I just haven't seen any evidence of one, especially not specifically the Christian God, so I'm not going to live my life by it

Bible says a lot of things, so does the Hindu, Jewish, Muslim holy books, does not make any or all of them fact.

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I don't know exactly what that means, but I have read the bible and I've prayed before.

All religions are different, and all say they are the CORRECT one. They cannot ALL be right, but they CAN all be WRONG.

bower, my dad once told me the difference between an ignorant & a stupid person is, the ignorant person simply doesn’t know, but listens to others & is willing reason & learn, the stupid person is unwilling to listen to others, thinks they already know & their minds closed to all else, but their own thoughts & opinions. Which are you ?

Ignorant I guess lol. Of course I am willing to listen to people from all religions

bower & gorilla, see this site & question below⬇️

gotquestions.org

With all the different religions, how can I know which one is correct?

I stopped at the homosexuality question. Not born that way and it’s a sin? Ya, another reason I have rejected the Bible, make sure you kill your neighbor if you see him working on Sunday as well, because it says that too.

Yeah I'm actually lesbian haha

I guess your screwed then Bower! 👹👹👹👹

Some would say lol

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gorilla, speak for all the opinions, biases, in your own mind, but not for bower or God !

“For who knows a person’s thoughts, except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God, except the spirit of God. 1Corinthians 2:11

Kacott you don’t even know your own holy book?

Exodus 35:2

“Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.”

And you do the same then, for my heart is good because I choose it to be, one who is good for fear of punishment is not true to himself, and “god” would know this..

Gorilla, The Bible teaches Christians, to love all sinners, but as for all of us, hate the sins, that’s one of the profound differences between the Bible & Koran, for their homsexuals, adulterers,& a host of other religions infractions, it’s not reconciliation & forgiveness, its death, dismemberment plus separation ! Apparently you haven’t read or understand much of either one🤔!

I don’t accept the notion of a creator without proof, so the books are nothing more then works of fiction. And it does not matter what the books say because the follower of the religion will attribute their morality to whatever is written in the book. That’s why good people are made to do bad things in the name of their god and holy book.

Shipley have you read the Old Testament by the way? I just posted a passage saying to hill if someone works on the sabbath day!? I guess YOU have not studied the books of the Bible 🤔

Hill = KILL

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I don’t see it that way, but no internal life for working on Sundays... you don’t think that’s harsh, just for not working?

I can find many other passages that say to kill...

gorilla, you speak & quote from the Old Testament, which records God seeking to save his chosen people the Jews, who constantly turned away from him, then he sent, his son, Jesus to seek out & save the whole sinful world, as recorded in the New Testament, which he has done & is still doing, but amazingly God gives us all the choice to accept or reject both him & his son.

Agreed, and so does every other holy book, just hope you accepted the correct one, otherwise you may have to tell Shiva, Zeus or Ra or Thor why you worshiped the wrong god.

gorilla, ever read about the prodigal son, Luke 15:11-32, The son represented is “US” & the father, running to welcome them back represents “GOD”. That’s the God I worship & want to spend eternity with, I dont know why or how you missed him ?

Believe what you want my friend that is what US, as in United States, is about. Freedom of religion...

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Again, worship whom and who you please, not my place to tell anyone what to believe in, but don’t expect me to believe the same thing. I was raised Catholic, and Don’t think the Bible game our pastor the right to touch little boys. Which he did. So where was his morality? That along with many other truths I have found and lack of proof has got me to what my believes are today. But that’s me..

Never read of any of your “Gods” listed above loving me enough, to send their only Son to seek all the lost. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his one & only son, that whoever believes him, will not perish, but have eternal life.”

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Actually read the Egyptian gods, very similar story..

gorilla, why do you keep building “strawmen” in trying to dismiss & discredit a loving God, by using those who have sinned who he’s calling to turn away from those Sins & be saved❓2Peter3:9, “God is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to turn away from sin.”

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We can all seek Gods word & not the teachings of men & the denominations that follow them, plus the institutions that have grown from them, I’m simply trying to follow Christ, & seek to speak where God speaks, worship & serve as stated in the New Testament & nothing else !

And I said you have every right to do so, not stopping you from believing what you want, and I’m sure my values line up with your very well in how to lead a good life, out only difference is on the creator issue and what happens at death.

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Ok well I’ll be a good person in this life and I guess eternal life for me then, why do you care? As long as I’m good in this life and don’t hurt others, My afterlife should mean nothing to you..

No eternal life for me that is....

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... wait you mean like god “didn’t” do for his son Jesus and let him get crucified?

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A choice of sin in the Christian doctrine isn't free will.

One option provides reward while the other provides punishment.

Say there are two paths. If you take one I will give you a million dollars and the other I will cut off your arms. Is that free will? Am I truly giving you a choice?I

And so do we... so you should let me exercise my free will of what to believe.

Jesus choose death over life.... someone just said he had free will, and again this is if you believe what you do, I don’t believe in an afterlife at least not the one your talking about, so does not matter to me if I accept this or not..

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Ok then let him do so, and we are done here. May you all live long and happy lives!

I’ve just read this VERY long convo, & just want to add 1 thing here at the end.

Yes, I do believe both of you have free will & you can choose to accept or reject Jesus, Bower & Gorilla. That’s entirely up to you & I’m not pressuring you to do so.

All evangelical Christians WILL try to warn you, though, because, like God, who says He doesn’t want ANY to perish, we don’t either. But we can’t make you choose Jesus. Ultimately that is up to you.

Bower, your question about the two paths—if we take one you will give us a million dollars and the other cut off our arms—you then ask it that is really a choice.

Yes, it apparently IS. After all, God has offered YOU a CHOICE, & you refuse to take the “million dollar” choice & have decided you’d rather have the “cut your arms off choice” by rejecting Him. Whether you realize it or not, He gave you a choice to have everything good or everything bad, & you’ve CHOSEN bad! It’s my prayer that one day you will instead choose good!


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I can't chose to believe in something that I don't see any evidence for. I can't chose to believe in unicorns, leprechauns, or God.

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No, that's not true.

Pascal’s wager assumes god can’t read minds. But he would be able to. So does anyone really believe that god would send an atheist to hell for not buying in based on lack of evidence, but let some guy in because he was making a calculated bet?

I appreciate the civility & sincere honest, discussion we all have had, seems with non believers demand empirical evidence before they will believe, consider, truth & reality. When Jesus was on earth he performed countless miracles of every type from raising the dead, restoring sight, curing leprosy, changed water to wine, even restored an attackers severed ear, but with all that empirical evidence, shown the Jews, helped by the Romans they still denied & crucified him & he allowed them to do it, to give himself as his & Gods expression of love to save us all. That is why faith is required, the finite mind can’t fully understand an infinite God or his Son, they can only trust & obey, the creator.

One more thought on empirical evidence, most of us have flown on various types of aircraft, although an unseen wind lifts & supports those aircraft for hours & even days, but many of us can’t accept the same reality from an unseen Creator, sustaining us all, for eternity. In closing, “There is a way to the unbeliever that seems right, but in the end it leads to death & eternal separation from God, I hope & pray that doesn’t happen to anyone, but I fear for many it will.

Lol you can observe winds though. You can't observe god.

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And Bower, what I’m saying is that in NOT choosing God, you HAVE made a choice, which is your right. It breaks God’s heart, but He will ALLOW you to choose to spend eternity away from Him, in torment, in hell, no matter how much it hurts Him to see you suffer.

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No, Coffee, He doesn’t let people in on a calculated bet. You have to believe with ALL your heart that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that He died on the cross to save you from your sin to spend eternity with Him.


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And Coffee, God doesn’t SEND people to Hell. He allows them to choose their path and just doesn’t pluck them off that path against their will.

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Then it’s not really a choice at all for non-believers

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That’s a calculated bet then

I can’t choose to believe with all my heart that something exists with no empirical evidence. Most adult brains dont work like that. That’s why you have to get kids when they’re young and malleable

So how come when Satan went against god he was just not distorted? Why would god allow him to even exist to tempt us. If god is all knowing he should have seen Satan’s fall coming long before it happened and also mans. It doesn’t make sense, that’s why I don’t believe it.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I can't believe in something on faith alone. I need evidence.

Agreed, faith will allow you to believe in anything. I have faith in Thor. Who believes he exists or has proof? If you use “faith” anything is possible with a lack of proof. Everyone can believe what they want, this is just me talking.

VERY well said, in both those last two comments, Shippy! Even one of Jesus’ own disciples demanded proof after Jesus’ Resurrection. To this day, he’s known as DOUBTING Thomas.

Bower, I see God every day in the beauty of the earth, the miracle of a baby’s birth, how AMAZING the human body is, and how everything within it works. It really baffles me that ANYONE can look around at the beauty around us and NOT see God in all of that!

And NO, we can’t actually SEE wind, just like we can’t SEE love. But we can see the RESULTS of wind—that leaves and tree branches move, that buildings are destroyed by tornadoes, etc. Just like we see the RESULTS of love—that people give gifts, hugs, kisses, show care of others, do nice things for them, spend time with them, etc. Just like we see the RESULTS of God every day in His Creation.

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And again, if you have faith that's fine. I just don't.

2) And I admit that the last one is probably a LOT easier for Christians to see than atheists, because we have Christian brothers and sisters in our lives that show Christian love to us, we care for them and they care for us, etc. and you probably don’t have that in your life if you’re not a member of a Bible believing church where it’s practiced.

For example, my heart is BREAKING today, because over 2 dozen of my brothers and sisters in Christ have had their lives cut short by a man that we’ve learned is an atheist. But I also REJOICE because I know that they are in Heaven with God.

But Christianity is NOT a matter of proof. Even the Bible says that. It’s a matter of FAITH. So if you’re waiting on proof, when you refuse to recognize the proof all around you, you will never accept Jesus, as we must come to Him in faith.


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4JC, I never said I could see wind, I said you can observe it. It had measurable force

There is a lot of beauty in the world but there is also lots of hatred and bigotry.

And no, if it's a matter of faith alone, I probably won't be able to be Christian. If God or Jesus ever speaks to me I would believe though.

“But Christianity is NOT a matter of proof.....”

“...when you refuse to recognize the proof all around you,”

Uhhh

Coffee, there are plenty of people that have accepted Christ as teens and adults. I was in my mid teens when I accepted Him and did NOT grow up in church. In fact, as a result, my own parents accepted Christ, AFTER I did.

Ask @Mark4 about his experience. He was an atheist most of his life, when He accepted Christ.

The Bible DOES say that we have to have the faith of a child. That’s what makes it so wonderful—-that it goes against what we adults would think—do we REALLY think we’re smarter than God, in our arrogance? God says that we must believe as a child. We grow up and we think we know everything there is to know, and God tells us we don’t, and we must accept what He’s done for us with what He considers the ADMIRABLE faith of a child.


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That’s why I said most. It’s not common that atheists become Christians

And when a terrorist blows himself and others up he is in heaven with virgins, so they believe. So how is YOUR believe any more or less valid then his? I have lots of love of family and friends in my life and I help my fellow man as much as I can, I do it because I know in my heart it’s right.. and as for the trees and humans, evolution is proven and 99 percent of life on earth has already gone extinct, so was that god plan?

Gorilla, is that a typo? Did you mean distorted or destroyed?

God knew that Satan would fall and that man would fall. That’s why from the very beginning He had a plan to send Jesus to die for all of us. And the reason that He allowed that is that He’s not a tyrant. He allows all of us free will. Otherwise, it would be slavery, and He doesn’t want us to obey Him out of slavery, but out of love for what He’s done for us.

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That’s 99 percent of species that have lived in the past. Who made them? Who made prehistoric man? A god? No, evolution.

So he loves us but will torment us forever just for asking proof? Does not sound like love to me. Would you torment your child for eternity for disobeying you?

Gorilla, the difference in your faith in Thor & my faith in Jesus is that Thor didn’t die for your sins. Jesus did. I also have The Holy Spirit, living within me, that guides me every day as to how to follow God, how to treat my fellow man, etc. He convicts me when I sin, leads me when I worship God, shows me His will, etc. Does Thor do any of that for you?

What has he done for you TODAY? Has Thor turned your life around? Has he answered any of your prayers? Has he miraculously provided for you when you didn’t know where the next meal was coming from, or protected 1 of your children from a horrific accident?

Is there a book you go to, to read Thor’s words, which speak to your heart? When you sing about Thor, do you well up in tears of gratitude for what he’s done for you? Do you get chill bumps when you feel his presence?

I have ALL of these experiences in my life. He brought me from the home of an alcoholic to be a pastor’s wife who helps other people through their own pain.

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Bower, when your father was a pastor, was that after you were born and old enough to be in church? Did you ever go to church? If so, what denomination? Because it REALLY disturbs me if you grew up in church and never felt Jesus or God speak to you.

Every time I open my Bible, God speaks to me, and I learn something new, no matter how many times I’ve read a passage. I know pastors that have been preaching for 50 years that say the same thing.

He also speaks to me in a still quiet voice, reminding me that I have done something wrong, and I must apologize and ask forgiveness of that person I wronged.

He speaks to me through pastors, Bible teachers, and authors of Christian fiction and non-fiction every day, also.

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2) All you have to do is be willing to recognize that it’s GOD talking to you. It’s like the funny story about the guy falling off the roof. He prays for God to stop his fall, and then a nail snags His pants and He says, “Never mind, God, this nail caught me.” He failed to recognize that God USED that nail to catch him right when he called out to God! You have to be OPEN to the possibilities!



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I have a full heart because I do what I believe to be good and right, and my life goes well because of it.. I don’t need to say an invisible man is taking to me, and I could easily say it’s Thor. So ya my life goes well because Thor has been their for me? You believe me or do you not have faith in Thor?

Coffee, I see that I didn’t make myself very clear and confused you! Lol So sorry.

What I mean is that you have to accept Christ on FAITH, and those of us that HAVE accepted Him on faith see that proof all around us.

You put your faith in chairs, cars, airplanes all the time, not knowing whether they will hold you up or get you where you’re going.

But faith in Jesus is like that chair—you can believe that it will hold you up all day long—but until you actually SIT in it and put your full weight on it, you’re not actually TRUSTING it to hold you up. Faith in Jesus is like that. You have to put your well being in His hands, to take care of you, and then you will see that He actually can do that!

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I did go to church, my mom, who is still Christian, took me up until recently. And no, I never felt god speak to me. I felt a pastor speak to me. And I didn't feel good speak to me when I read the bible. I read words. Didn't feel anything special about it.

And I've never had a nail. You know I only pray in very dire situations and almost every time there was no answer. The thing I prayed for didn't happen

But cars, airplanes, and chairs are sturdy and trustworthy because they are based on science and equations.

Coffee, here’s a list of some famous people that have converted from atheism to Christianity:

Kirk Cameron - American actor. Cameron was an atheist in his early teens. When he was 17, during the height of his career on Growing Pains, he became a born-again Christian.

Rosalind Picard - Professor of Media Arts and Sciences at MIT, director and also the founder of the Affective Computing Research Group at the MIT Media Lab, co-director of the Things That Think Consortium, and co-founder of startups Affectiva and Empatica

Hugh Ross (astrophysicist) - Canadian astrophysicist, Christian apologist, and old earth creationist.

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2) Alister McGrath - Northern Irish scientist, theologian, priest, intellectual historian and Christian apologist.

Francis Collins - American physician, geneticist. He is director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

Alexis Carrel - French surgeon and biologist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1912.

Lee Strobel - American Christian Apologetic author. He has written several books, including four which received ECPA Christian Book Awards (1994, 1999, 2001, 2005) and a series which addresses challenges to a Biblically inerrant view of Christianity.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn - Russian novelist, historian. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1970.

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3) Czesław Miłosz - poet, prose writer, translator and diplomat. He was awarded the Neustadt International Prize for Literature, and in 1980 the Nobel Prize in Literature.

C. S. Lewis - British novelist, poet, academic, medievalist, literary critic, essayist, lay theologian, broadcaster, lecturer, and Christian apologist

Dr Carl Wieland - Australian Physician and author.

Dr Russell Humphreys American Physicist

Of course, that’s just some famous ones. It probably happens more than you could imagine.

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I said it’s not common. That’s 7 people out of 7 billion. It happens. It’s not common

Gorilla, you’re not seriously comparing Muslim extremist terrorists to Christians, are you? We do NOT believe that someone that blows others up ends up in heaven!

Our beliefs are based on the LOVE of Christ. Just a note—when you judge a religion, you should judge that religion based on the founder of the religion, not the followers—because ALL of us are sinners who fail.

So compare the lives of Jesus and Mohammed if you want to see the differences in our religions. Did Jesus have sex with little girls? Did Mohammed DIE for His followers? Etc.

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2) And I dare say that you help in your heart and know it’s right because you’ve grown up in a country based on Judeo-Christian values. If you had grown up in a country based on Muslim values, you would believe it’s alright to kill Christians, gays, and anyone other than your particular sect of Muslims!

As any scientist will tell you, science evolves and they have to keep changing their theories every time a new one proves their old one wrong. So I don’t put a lot of stock in science, myself.

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No, He doesn’t torment you. You condemn yourself to torment. He will NOT be in hell, because He cannot be around the sin that will be there. Hell, by it’s very definition, is a place where God will NOT be. It will be Satan tormenting you, because you chose him over God.

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I allowed my children to live with the consequences of their actions. I taught them to obey the FIRST time that I told them to do something, which actually saved the life of our 3 year old at one point—because he didn’t question my authority, and that of hid dad.

So many kids nowadays are not being taught this, and it’s a MAJOR problem in our country—they have a lack of respect for ANY authority, including their parents, government, and God.

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In the same way, God expects us to obey Him—because He knows what is best for us and wants to give us our most fulfilling life. That’s what Jesus is all about—giving us a fulfilling life both in the here and now and the afterlife.

The laws He gives us are to protect us, just as parents teach their kids to mind to protect them from harm.

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I’m glad your life is going well, gorilla. May I ask what age range you are? Because I can guarantee you, if you’re young, that your life will not ALWAYS go well. Troubles and trials come to al of us in life, and eventually something is NOT going to go your way. What then?

I can’t imagine how people make it through life during those difficult times without God’s love, comfort, and support. I feel really sad for those that don’t have Him.

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“I allowed my children to live with the consequences of their actions”

So do I. This has nothing to do with god

That’s really sad that you never felt God speak to you in church, Bower. May I ask what denomination that was? Did your pastor preach about Jesus dying for your sins? Do you believe that you HAVE sinned, Bower? If you do, how do you deal with that sin?

Have you considered that God answers prayers different ways? Sometimes He says, “Yes.” Sometimes, He says, “No.” Sometimes, He says, “Wait a while. I have something to teach you through this. Or I have something even better for you.”

So if you only consider that He’s going to say yes and that is the ONLY way He would answer, I can see that you would think He didn’t answer. He’s like everyone else—He can give you different answers. I’m sure your parents didn’t always answer your questions when you were a child by saying, “Yes, Bower, you can have that.”

Chairs have the bottoms fall out of them. Cars and Planes break down all the time. And yet you trust every time you get into one that it will take you where you’re going.

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45. And I have had hard times, but I picked myself up by my boot straps and carried on and learned from mistakes and tried to make good choices. My mom always tells me how teachers of mine would be in tears saying how good a person I was and how much I cared about people even at a young age. I have friends I have not talked to in years that tell me they would trust me more, even after not seeing me in years, then other close friends, so as I said I always took responsible for my actions, in fact I would say when people said “God’s looking out for you” that “I’m sure he has more important thing to worry about then me, i got this!” Lol

Also may I add my inlaws are not religious at all, but they are the most caring, happy and generous people on earth! And so is their daughter. A great person inside and out and raised with no religious believes.

Actually, Coffee, it was 12 instead of 7. You must’ve replied before the last one came in! Lol And I mentioned that those were just some famous ones.

I think you might be interested in this article about atheists I just found. I thought it was interesting that 8% of atheists do believe in God. I didn’t realize that! And of course, they’re still only 3% of our population. But there are some interesting tidbits on this page, as far as demographics:

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/

When I said that about teaching my kids to mind I was responding to your saying that I wouldn’t allow my kids to suffer. They DID have to suffer in certain ways to be taught lessons. They got spankings for not obeying, one of them had to pay for a shirt that he demolished with his own money that he had to do extra chores to pay for, they were grounded if they didn’t make curfew, etc.

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I mean, I don't believe in "sin" , but I do believe have committed acts that agent good ones. I try to better myself as a person and make sure I never do those things again.

I don’t recall hearing anything but my own thoughts, and sorting out problems in my own way, and for a positive ends. And my life right now has never been better. But if it goes to crap I won’t blame a man in the sky I will blame myself or “hard luck” in life.. and then again pick myself up

I think you might have misunderstood me, gorilla. Although there are some Christians that don’t think that atheists can be loving or caring, I’m not one of them. I have an atheist and an agnostic in my own family, so I know better.

But I AM saying that all of us have grown up in a country whose laws and beliefs were based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, and I think that has a lot to do with that.

We see this in the difference between our country and Muslim led countries where women are treated as second class citizens, gays and Christians are killed, and in African countries, where there are still, to this day, barbaric tribes.

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Bower, if you never heard in church that you have sinned, you were NOT in a Bible believing church, and your pastor has really let you down. That is the BASIC fact that most people learn in church.

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Gorilla, we would also not blame God when things go wrong. We blame original sin that entered the world through Adam and Eve for all the troubles in our world.

Well, it looks like y’all are winding down on the convo. I’ve really enjoyed talking to you. Thanks for keeping it respectful! I REALLY appreciate that!

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Have a good evening

4JC, they said I sinned, I don't believe it though.

I'm just going to pop in here. 4JC - If there was an atheist that had all the qualities one would want in a person (caring, generous, etc) would they spend eternity in Hell, for simply not believing?

Thanks, gorilla, you too!

Bower, NO WONDER you see no reason for Jesus. If you don’t believe you have sinned, there would be NO REASON for Him to die for your sins. I’m at a total loss, because I’ve never met anyone that didn’t believe they had sinned. EVERYONE knows that they’ve done wrong before. That’s all sin is—falling short of God’s love and His rules for living.

Jarod, yes I believe they would spend eternity in hell for not believing.

That’s what the Bible teaches—that the ONLY way we get to Heaven is by faith in Jesus’ death on the cross to save us from our sins.

MORe

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2) There is NOTHING we can do, even after we become Christians, that will get us to heaven. In fact, the Bible says that our good works are as filthy rags in God’s sight—Meaning that our very best that we can do falls so far short of God’s goodness that they are like a housewife’s dust rags that are so grungy they can only be thrown away. It’s overstatement to show us just how far below God we are.

If an atheist that was “good” was able to get to heaven, there would’ve been NO REASON for Jesus to die on the cross, would there?



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Well Maybe I’ll go for the death bed conversion? Like sinners do. Lie cheat kill rob your whole life, while someone like me tries to do good things, and the person who sinned all their life gets in and I don’t? That sound fair? So why be good and moral then? If you can just say “my bad” at death and get a free pass. Hey what do you tell the people you killed when you see hem in heaven by they way? “Sorry I killed you but I made it in anyway!” How twisted of logic is that? Another reason I don’t by it!

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kscott, gorilla is just trolling you, with his deathbed scenario, I doubt he cares or respects us, our God, his Son, or any of your efforts to intervene on his behalf. Matt.7:6, Jesus said, “Don’t gave that which is holy to the dogs, or toss your pearls before Pigs or they will trample them, then turn on you, & tear you to pieces.” So sadly, I’m done with this thread !

Sorry you don’t want to have a discussion, I have heard that argument before. Have a wonderful evening.

I think we are done here, at this point, there seems to be nothing substantive or informative between us, so I wish well & goodbye.

Did I say I never did anything wrong? I even said I have committed what you would see as a sin. Sin is a religious concept though

Jarod, coffee, bower, etc
Christians have an answer for everything. I went to a Baptist school from K-6th grade & Lutheran school in 7th & 8th. I can still recite the books of the Bible, so I was exposed to all the teachings & know them. I believe in life after death, but not heaven or hell. Christians believe that the bible is holy, and it’s god’s only words to us in writing. Actually, it’s just a book. God didn’t just stop communicating with us & inspiring us to write his words. Many books are still written today inspired by god. Really good one is Conversations w/ God. That is the closest thing to what I believe in writing that I’ve found. My god isn’t a jealous god & doesn’t need to be worshipped. That never made sense to me. He’s god. What does he have to be jealous of? He’s basically love. Jealousy and vanity (the need to feel worshipped) are human attributes that humans apply to god to try & make god make sense, but to me, it’s just silly.

Yes I grew up catholic and my mother was religious. But not as much these days, she still believes but does not really attend church much..anyway, I believe like you why would any god, who is all powerful allow evil, Satan, to exist. He should be able to vanish him at any time if he’s all powerful? If not the his power has been exaggerated. And as a kid I always questioned thing. So found it odd that you were not supposed to question? How convenient to add that..”want to control people keep them in the dark, don’t ask questions...” ....and don’t touch yourself, why why would a god care if I touched what he Game me??! Zero sense at all.

Kscott, a heartfelt conversion is....

No serious thinker says Peter or the other disciples went to hell because they saw.

Precisely, gorilla

As for the eternal destiny of a non-believer who lives a better-than-usual life, it just isn't good enough. The standard is the perfection of God, which is why the Jews put all those roadblocks in their lives, thinking if they could live just one sinless day, if I can be perfect for just a short time I can be saved.
God knows his created beings can't be perfect on their own, so God, who created us with meaning, meaning consequence, took the consequence onto himself, and all you have to do is acknowledge how and through whom you are saved from consequence. Has God made provision for those who never know of Jesus? I don't know. I know God shows immeasurable grace.

“As for the eternal destiny of a non-believer who lives a better-than-usual life, it just isn't good enough”

It’s good enough for me

ONLY A FOOL SAYS THERE IS NO GOD

rightfromtheheart.org

Only a fool withholds belief in something that has no empirical evidence? I disagree

Coffee, that’s you & your opinion, but like mine, it doesn’t count, only God’s does ! Like a honest, but profane person once told me, opinions are like aholes, everyone has one, butt so what !

coffee, Did you go to the website I noted & read about the unforgivable sin ?

No, I don’t need a website to tell me I’m going to hell. That’s what SoH is for

If someone does not believe in the god you speak of the punishment means nothing.

Don’t you worry you have the wrong god? What if the Muslims, Hindu or Jew is correct? You are then the nonbeliever and will suffer the wrath of their god...

It appears, you & others minds are closed to God, his Son, & his offer offer of eternal life, there is nothing more to be said, good bye.

Thanks for answering the question... because you know ALL Religions cannot be correct, it’s just a fact, my belief does not change that fact! So either YOU, or a Jew, a Muslim or Hindu is WRONG! or your ALL wrong, you cannot all be correct in your beliefs! Not my opinion, fact!

Gorilla, I originally said that christians have an answer for everything. That’s not entirely true. When they don’t, you’re not open to their beliefs, so there’s nothing more to be said. He can’t answer your question bc it doesn’t fit into his tiny little world which doesn’t include Muslims, Jews, Buddhist and so on. They’re all heathens who are going to hell. 🙄

You are correct, and what people can’t understand is those “OTHER” religions that are not “YOURS” have followers just as devoted as the Christian, so someone (and maybe all) are in for a shattering of their beliefs. Thats not even my opinion, it’s simple logic, they ALL say the other is wrong! So.. even if I excepted Jesus as they are trying to tell me to do, I would still have this fact to worry about no matter what!

Gorilla, just keep worrying, till you finally can no longer reason out why you feel, a hole in your immortal soul, because Gods spirit isn’t there, if you ever get it, you will feel & know it !

Ok, that’s fine, but still have not answered my question about the major religions of the world.. and my life is fine the way it is, got my health, loving wife and family, zero debt, so my good deeds as a person in this world have yielded a great life, so my heart is full.

I thought he already gave up and said goodnight. It drives them crazy when they can’t ‘save’ you. Our ‘immortal’ souls are gonna be just fine. My heart is full, too. Go with the god you choose, if any, gorilla❣️

Ya I guess living with good morals, helping others and having a happy life is just not enough.. and you too by the way, here is to a Happy Life. The REAL one we know is real!

This conversation is seriously flooding my notifications lol

I agree with katerina. It's up to everybody to decide individually what they want to believe

sorry, bower 😑 lol!

It's ok haha

And so we begin at the beginning:

First acknowledge that the supernatural is necessary for meaning to exist.

Just wanted to pop in to say that FYI, Katerina, it’s NOT our responsibility to save you. Only Jesus can do that, through the wooing of the Holy Spirit. It IS our responsibility to share the Gospel with you, but then, it’s between you and God. If you choose not to accept Him, that’s on you, and it doesn’t drive us crazy. It makes us sad for you, but we’re not sitting around obsessing over it.

We try so hard to share what we have because we’re so excited about our personal relationship with Jesus that we want everyone to experience that same love and acceptance.

Everyone has to decide for themselves what they believe. I don’t disparage you for what you believe, and I hope you won’t disparage me and will remain respectful of what I believe.

...

Btw - if you guys haven't watched Long Island Medium, you should. It has enough proof for me. The season premiere was yesterday.

Long Island Medium? Bahahahahahaha. If there's anything more ridiculous than believing in a deity, it's thinking humans can communicate with the dead. That bitch is a vulture and a fraud.

www.ibtimes.com/theresa-caputo-fake-long-island-medium-star-bashed-investigator-1595617

Obviously you've heard of it. Try watching a few episodes.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

No.

Oh my god this made my day

Well it does make as much sense as most religions... I do like to see efforts at physical evidence. But......

Someone tell me why the supernatural is necessary for meaning to exist.

Because, in my opinion, mankind needs a law maker to try to keep people under control, a law giver who sees you even when no one is around, pure control mechanism. Also because people are to vain to realize that we are NOT special and once we die we seise to exist. I hope their is something else, but no evidence of it has been found. This is all my opinion. Everyone is able to have/share their own.

“Someone tell me why the supernatural is necessary for meaning to exist.”

Path of least resistance

Not even.

The supernatural is necessary to meaning because without it, if all there is is Browinian motion, quantum uncertainty, and mechanical causation, then all you who disbelieve in it are left being exactly the same as a sun warmed pebble rolling down a hill. You have no reason but only cause to do what you do and think what you think, and the rest of us note what you do or say or think, but ascribe no meaning to it because you don't.

You can make up a “man in the sky” to fit a model, you have to prove “IT” it’s real. We already know we evolved from a common ape ancestor, we have the bones of earlier humans. We as people can put meaning into our lives because we have evolved to the point where we can strive to be better. WE created god not the other way around

I didn't invent him. My previous post didn't even address him, you did.

One thing at a time. Can you explain to me why (other than, "I had to.") you bothered to reply to me if all there is is accident and causation?

Just sharing my opinions in the thread from previous conversations, not directed right at you.

My last sentence is still operative.

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Kscott, it's a lot more complicated than that...

It makes more sense then some Bronze Age men saying a guy turned water into wine and raised the dead? With ZERO proof other then a 2,000 year old book saying so. Given the choice I will lean towards the physical proof. But again, that’s me people can believe whatever they wish.

humanorigins.si.edu/evidence

Mark, thank you for your posts,👍🏻, after reading, the cadre of unbelievers, congratulating themselves & one another for being good moral upright people, who didn’t want or need a God, Christ, or their followers, & thumbed their noses, at a eternal creator, as them being a part of his creation, your statements on relativity of current & eternal consciousness existence, was stunning, I got it❗️I hope they did too‼️

I have shown everyone respect and said this is my opinion and people can believe what they want. So don’t think that is talking down by saying my belief in a conversation board. Everyone is free to believe what they wish..

Thank you skippy. That's humbling. I was one of them for a long long time, so while I try to turn them I understand them.

Let's say it again:
THERE IS NO MEANING WITHOUT THE SUPERNATURAL!

And that’s your opinion, and your entitled to it. Thank you for sharing.

gorilla, at least get your timeline right. 2000 years ago was WAY past the bronze age. If all you want to do is insult and you're not concerned with accuracy then skip the Bronze Age and go right to the Stone Age. It's as accurate and carries even more insult.

It's a thoughtful opinion. You are free to dispute it.

Wanna have a go?

Thanks again for your opinion.

So that's a no.

Good choice.

Mark, in conjunction with your statements, John Clayton, who was an avowed scientist & atheist, who sought to disprove the existence of God, in doing so became a believer. You can You Tube or Google, John Clayton: Does God Exist

There are many videos available of his addressing the questions & facts on Does God Exist

Their no disputes here, for a guy taking about others thumbing their noses, you sure got your in the air. Now is that what Jesus would do?

Mark, I was thinking the same thing about the timing of the Bronze Age!

And I think it’s HILARIOUS, gorilla, that you don’t even believe in Jesus, but any time you think you can try to pull someone up short, you use Him to try to lay a guilt trip on a Christian.

If you don’t believe in Him, why would you try to use His teachings? Looks like to me that you DO believe in God!

....

After all, if He didn’t exist, you wouldn’t be able to use His teachings to make your points!

O he may have existed, just don’t believe was Devine. For sure could have be a teacher, no argument their. And for the record was raised Roman Catholic, so was not always a non believer, just has not made sense to me nor do I see proof. Again if anyone else wants to believe in whatever god or gods they are free to do so, not my place to judge or tell others how to think, just having a discussion on here. Don’t expect to change any minds, and mine either.

Lol of Course Jesus existed. He just wasn't magic.

Bower, you are a hoot❗️, “Jesus existed he just wasn’t magic”❓He raised the dead, healed the sick, blind, crippled, the mentally ill, walked on water, calmed storms, but that wasn’t supernatural❓Was it smoke & mirrors like David Cooperfied❓

I don't believe any of that happened. If you do, good for you, but again, I need to see evidence to believe.

We can see DC’s show, I never saw the other stuff you are speaking of so sorry, can’t buy it without proof. I can say I saw a guy fly, does not make it true on my word, or if I wrote it down. Still not proof to me so I Cannot believe it. They said other god, Ra. Thor, Zeus, etc.. did things, they said Mohammad dictates the Muslim holly book from an Angel, do you believe that? And I’m just making discussion, not trying to be rude, just want to see why you may believe the same story In do not.

Bower, even the Bible says, if Christ wasn’t who he said he was, then he was a lier & his followers are to be pitied.

Lord, Liar, or Lunatic: C.S. Lewis - Jesus Trilemma

www.thoughtco.com

#gorilla

#gorilla

I like this part....

LORD, LIAR, LUNATIC, OR...?
When it comes to his argument that Jesus must necessarily be the Lord, there are other possibilities which Lewis does not effectively eliminate. Two of the most obvious examples are that perhaps Jesus was simply mistaken and that perhaps we don’t have an accurate record of what he truly said — if, indeed, he even existed.

Shippy, I’ve already tried C.S. Lewis’ logic when I did my Myths of Christianity series, and logic doesn’t work with them, either. I did one that was an entire article that covered the point that you just mentioned.

Bower says of course, Jesus existed. Gorilla says he doesn’t even know if He existed, even though He’s been written about for 2,000 years.

I’m done with this convo. It’s going nowhere. Y’all have a great evening.

...

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Ok I see your points, now give me that same logical and factual argument as to why god exists.

I quoted what I read in the link you gave me and said I agreed? Not sure why you sent me that link to read then?

Let's say it again:
THERE IS NO MEANING WITHOUT THE SUPERNATURAL!

If you don't dare engage that statement I understand, but no discussion of God's existence gets past it.

Gorilla, Because I wanted you to see with a “finite” unbeliever like the author on C.S. Lewis opposition, most will not or cannot accept or understand a infinite God, who said , “a thousand years to him, is as a day to us, also his eternal time continuum, he said, I am the Alpha & Omega, the beginning & the end”. I accept & trust his statements, “my ways aren’t your ways & my thoughts aren’t your thoughts.” For unbelievers that’s troubling & problematical, for believers, it’s comforting & reassuring.

How can a statement I don’t find it to be discomforting? If I say “Thor gives me strength, and I find comfort in him”, are you going to feel discomfort? No, your going to say, “ya good luck with that, I’m going to go...”. And you won’t feel any discomfort at all, same thing for me when you quote what you are quoting. Not trying to mean, just giving you the perspective.

Ok, so then their is no meaning, who said their was one..

And if their IS a supernatural, how do you prove know YOUR god is the correct supernatural? All gods are said to be supernatural, so by default the one you believe in must be the ONE? What proof do you have yours is more real then any other god in the history of mankind? They can’t all be right, even yours, but they can all be wrong.

That's good, but one step at a time.

Do you acknowledge the absolute necessity of the supernatural for meaning to exist?

It's important, as in any serious study, to build from the simple to the complex.

I Didn’t know you were a Viking, hanging out with Thor in Valhalla, getting “hammered”❓I’ll stick with my original Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It appears your determined to chose about any deity, other than the real one❗️The Apostle Paul told the Greeks worshipping all their Gods on Mars Hill, that he was a worshipping the one “Unknown God” they also worshipped. I’m like Paul I worship the one instead of the many‼️

And that’s your right to worship whomever you want, but you have not shown any evidence as to why the god you worship is anymore real, or the only real god. So the Jews are wrong, the Muslims are wrong the Hindus are wrong? They would make the exact same statement you make, and again you Cannot all be correct, but you can all be wrong.

That's good, but one step at a time.

Do you acknowledge the absolute necessity of the supernatural for meaning to exist?

It's important, as in any serious study, to build from the simple to the complex.

What proof do we have of a supernatural being? Just a question. Actually to tell the truth I would except a much older race, maybe billions of years older then us, seeding life here, they would then be our creators. But I digress. I do agree the Big Bang came from somewhere, but lack of knowing does not lead me to believe the only way was a intelligent design. But go on..

None of that is relevant to the question, which exists without reference to any particular being.

And referencing aliens doesn't address the question, but only pushes the question back to asking if the aliens had meaning.

Do you acknowledge the absolute necessity of the supernatural for meaning to exist?

It's important, as in any serious study, to build from the simple to the complex.

No, I have no proof of a supernatural, so I can’t assume something that I have no idea of, or proof exists is needed for a purpose... I would need proof of a supernatural “anything” before I could except the next step.

gorilla, you've noticed no one coming to your aid.
Despite all the atheists on SOH, most have learned to not engage me on this question.

They're right in the tactical sense, but so terribly wrong in the final sense that though they understand their logical defeat they cannot accept what it means.

gorilla, no one is asking you to take a step. We're in the introductory phase of discussing the concept of meaning.

Ok continue please

So we try again:

Do you acknowledge the absolute necessity of the supernatural for meaning to exist?

It's important, as in any serious study, to build from the simple to the complex.

And thank you.

I just answered that question.

I'm not asking if you have proof of the supernatural, and I'm not at this point claiming I do.

The question, stated otherwise is, how do you or even do you acknowledge that the concept of meaning has importance, and if you do how can you account for it without bringing in some agency that is not bound by cause-and-effect?

Please don't be another who drops out at this point.

I'm trying to do for you the greatest favor someone can do. I'm trying to get you to understand that the world, far from being a hopeless determined place, is instead a magical place full of real possibilities, and I'm going to do it with irrefutable logic.

Sorry was vacuuming. I was saying I never said this world has meaning, in fact I don’t believe it does. I think Life sprung up by a fluke.

I do agree on the magical part... no matter how we got here, I (people) should make the most of it.. meaning or not

Okay, good, and thanks again.

I get from your last statement that you do think that all that exists is the result of accident and causation. Have I stated that right? It's important you tell me something I didn't address.

Hope you'll respond to the above,

How do you explain the magical?

And how do you define magical?

I don’t it’s a figure of speech. But it’s what my senses that evolved over time allow me to hear,taste,smell,touch. So magical is another word for the physical world I can interact with.

That's very good, by the way, interposing posts with the mundane.

Sorry, I answered your question with my definition for magical. Because that’s all the tangible world is. What we can interact with.

Poor gorilla. Not an atheist here, but an attempt to come to your aid! Actually, it’s to the aid of those is us who really just don’t care anymore. Perhaps y’all could just PM each other. These notifications are getting tiring for those of us who never in an infinite number of years imagined it would become the longest thread in the history of SOH. Lord, have mercy!!!

Okay, it's definition time so we can each knows what the other is saying.

I think of magic as something that is not explainable in terms of modern science, something beyond cause-and-effect.

What say you?

Sorry Katerina, I hadn't noticed.

Gorilla can we take this up elsewhere from this point?

I can say “that was a magical night, etc” sure, because of the emotions my brian felt from what we did, experienced, etc. but that is still a label for a biological brain reaction to the tangible world.

Thank you, mark!

Sorry about the long thread all, but I think we have discussed this enough, I believe I know where you are coming from and appreciate the time and discussion 🤝

Ha! Find a place to tell me where I'm coming from!