Show of Hands

We’re commanded by God to support Israel, God’s chosen people. Since people from those countries generally fight against Israel, that will probably be a no.

Other than the fact that we want them to become Christians, so that they will stop warring against Israel, that is!

Haha! That funny moment when Israel refers to God’s nation of Israel not necessarily the physical state of Israel the country.

So people are being killed and you don't care?

The only reason you are praying is so Israel is because they're "God's chosen people" and not because they are frequent victims of terrorist attacks?

I hate to say this, but political is right.

I think 4JC was speaking about Israel in the same sense that I am, right?

Maybe you're right, I misinterpreted.

The emperor is usually right, get use to saying it, Bower.


🤴😂😂😅

Bas avec la monarchie, vive la république!

English?

After scouting through the internet and reading tons of books, I was able to find a translation for what she just said: (KJV) I Bower, now serveth Emperor political, and my heart is now filled full with conservatism.

✌️

Okay, in all seriousness, Bower is saying something along the lines of “End the monarch, long live the republic”

Bower, the very fact that they ARE God’s chosen people is WHY they are frequent victims of terrorist attacks. This goes all the way back to ancient times and is recorded over and over in the Old Testament. Mortal enemies and all that, due to sinful family dynamics and a man that didn’t trust God to give him the children God promised to him, but took a concubine instead. (Abraham).

ALL of the problems between Jews and Arabs goes back to that one point in time.

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And today, both Jews (in the religious sense - not nationality) and Muslims do not have saving faith.

MrAs second translation is correct.

Oh, so the cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict is because of a story that either didn't happen or happened very differently than you said. Thanks for the history lesson, good to know complex geopolitical issues can be grossly brought down to biblical epics.

I challenge you to study it all for yourself, Bower. You might learn quite a bit, instead of mocking those of us that HAVE studied this history for over 40 years!

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Which, I’m pretty sure is twice as long as you’ve been alive!

Oh, come on now. There's no way for us to know if these people were even real or not. I trust archeological evidence over the bible.

You DO know that archaeological evidence has proven the Bible, right?

Certain parts of the bible are true, others are inaccurate.

For example, modern archeologists believe the Israelites WERE canaanites, just ones who developed knew religious and social teachings. There was no invasion or anything like that.

The Bible alone can't be used as historical evidence. If you can find me archeological evidence your particular story happened, then we can talk

Archeological evidence hasn't proven the bible, it has proven some of it. A lot, especially the period before the OT was written, it just flat out wrong. Case in point: creationism, noahs arc, ect. Which aren't scientifically possible and have no evidence backing them up.

How long have you been a Biblical archaeologist, Bower? If you’re not one, how long have you been studying Biblical archaeology? I can tell you that hubby received Biblical Archaeology magazines for decades. I’m not going to sit around trying to argue this with you, because you’ve shown yourself to be very closed minded when 5 or 6 people have been arguing against you. I’ll just leave you with several articles where you can educate yourself on some of these topics.

It’s not my job to prove the Bible to you. But I CAN tell you this—there have been quite a few atheists who set out to disprove the Bible and studied all of this in depth only to become Christians because of the proof they found. I challenge you to do the same!

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2) www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/december/biblical-archaeology-top-ten-discoveries-of-2016.html

www.biblicalarchaeology.org/free-ebooks/ten-top-biblical-archaeology-discoveries/

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

m.youtube.com/watch?v=TPLiKDciPi8



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I'm not sure why you put the Wikipedia article there as it lists many historical inaccuracies of the bible.

Most of the bible was written around ~500 bc. And everything in the bible during and after this area is, I'll admit, surprising accurate. Everything before though has about the same historical accuracy as Arthurian legends. And then theres genesis, which is historically fiction in its entirety.

The first time I read the bible in its entirety I tried to read it as a historical document, and I spent a lot more time than I should have trying to place everything in chronological order and matching it up with history. I find it reads much better as a metaphorical piece.

And I have been studying the bible almost my whole life. My father teaches at a college, mostly analysis of religion.

No, most of the Bible was NOT written around 500 BC. It was written over thousands of years including around 100 AD.

The book that many believe was one of the first, chronologically, is Job, and many believe it was written at about the time of Abraham, around 2,000 BC.

We believe that Genesis was written by Moses, and covers more time than all of the rest of the Bible, as it moves from ancient prehistory to the death of of Joseph in Egypt around 1800 BC.

Exodus is also considered to have been written by Moses and covers a time span of a little more than 80 years, beginning with the birth of Moses and ending with the early portion of the Israelites’ journey to the Promised Land, sometime around 1400 BC.

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2) Leviticus is understood to have been written by Moses, also, and the events in it took place sometime around 1400 BC.

Numbers is the forum of the books written by Moses, also around 1400 BC.
Deuteronomy, also ascribed to Moses, and also around 1400 BC.

I could keep going and tell you the dates of all the books of the Bible, but you probably won’t listen or believe what Biblical scholars down through the generations have discovered about these books, so I’m probably just wasting my time with you.

You might be interested to know that there are Chronological Bibles that do that for you, so that you don’t have to put it into Chronological order. We have one or two in our Biblical library, which takes up a full room in our house.

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3) Aren’t you only about 20 years old? If so, I’m sure you haven’t been studying the Bible your ENTIRE life, as you couldn’t even read 1/4 of that time span! And if you’re only 20 years old, I’ve been studying the Bible every day for twice as long as you’ve been alive. Plus, of course, hubby has two degrees in the subject matter, and teaches the Bible at least three times a week, after dozens of hours of study for teaching it every week, whereas your dad just studies various different religions, so probably is not an expert in any of them, to the extent that my hubby is.

I would say there is also a big difference in what you learn from a parent over 15 years and what you learn from personal daily study of one book, as an adult, over 40 years.

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I don’t say all this to brag, but to TRY to help you realize that there ARE people in this world that know more about certain subjects than you do.

I and MANY others here on SOH have tried to point this out to you, when you argue against Jews that are in their 70’s about Jewish history that they would know much more about, and American history that we lived through, long before you were even born.

You REALLY need to sit back and realize that you could learn a LOT from others here on SOH, if you would just realize that many have a lot of knowledge you could gleam from. But if you continue to insist that you know MORE than others that have degrees in a certain subject, and that YOU are RIGHT and they are WRONG, you’re not going to learn much of anything.

And this is why several of us have gotten very frustrated with you.

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When have I ever claimed to know more about this than you? I recognize I don't. That doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and accept everything you say as truth. I'm sure you're not used to having to deal with skeptics as opposed to the sheep you and your husband feed, but I require evidence in order to believe in something, and you haven't given me any so far.

Also, don't attack my dad. You know nothing about him and you are trying to say your husband knows more than him. For the record, my dad has 3 degrees, 2 in Christian theology, from a college I'm site you would see as very prestigious.

First of all, do you realize how derogatory you’re being toward our church members when you say that?

You ALWAYS claim to know more than others do about anything we’re talking about, Bower. We saw this most recently when you were arguing against about 5 or 6 people who kept telling you that you had the wool pulled over your eyes about the history of Israel/Palestine. Many of these people were Jews for whom this is very important history and who lived through it themselves decades before you were even born.

I’m not trying to get you to believe what I do. That’s between you and God. I don’t have to prove ANYTHING to you.

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2) And saying that my hubby has more Biblical knowledge that your dad is not an attack on your dad, just my opinion of what it takes to teach the Bible every day, as opposed to someone that is teaching a bunch of different religions in overview courses of religions.

For example, I would say that your dad probably knows a LOT more than my hubby about Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. because he teaches about world religions, instead of focusing on only the Bible and Christianity.

My hubby has as many years of education as it takes a physician to get their degree, and not ONLY from a college or university, but also from a seminary, and ONLY in one specialized area—the Bible and Christianity—meaning his learning is much more focused on the Bible, Biblical languages, the history of the Bible, the archaeology of the Bible, the history of Christianity, etc.

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3) And instead of only studying to teach the same courses over and over every year, he has had to study the Bible every single day of his life, in order to come up with at least 156 NEW sermons every year, not just a set syllabus covering the same subjects every year.


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You're right, I am sorry about that. I got carried away.

I remember the specific argument. You are implying that because a. Several people tell me one thing and b. That I acknowledge they do know more than me on the specific subject means I should accept everything I am told immediately without question. I was doing research in conjunction with that argument and if you recall I ceded several points that I found to be true.

Yes, you do have to prove stuff to me. That's what an argument is?

I'm sure your husband is a very independent man although my dad really doesn't know much outside of Christianity and Buddhism

My dad was also a pastor for almost a decade.

Thanks. I appreciate the apology. I think that’s really the first time I’ve seen you do that, or back down on anything.

No, I’m not saying that you have to back down on all points. I’m saying it’s the way you come across. I don’t know if it has something to do with your being autistic, or what. But you DO come across as very obstinate in your stances, not seeming to want to admit when others have proven points, etc.

No. What I’m saying when I say I don’t have to prove anything to you is that it’s really not my responsibility to prove the Bible is accurate or that you should believe it. That’s between you and God.

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2) And I’m REALLY not responsible for that if your father was a pastor and you grew up in church. Your accepting the Bible and Christianity and what Jesus did for you on the cross is YOUR responsibility ALONE, not even up to your father.

I’m shocked to hear that he was a pastor as adamant as you are against Christianity. Does that have something to do with your push against Christianity? Did something happen in churches he pastored that caused you to turn against Christianity? Why is he no longer a pastor?

Usually, pastors have a lifelong call from God to be a pastor, and it’s usually only major problems in churches that cause them to turn against that calling.

Also, didn’t you tell me that you were abused as a child (or am I confusing you with someone else that is also autistic?).

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Yes, my dad did abuse me when I was younger. He is also mentally ill and was seriously fucked up back then. He's on new meds now, he's apologized, and I've forgiven him.

My dad was raised as a strong Christian. His experiences as a pastor and deeper study of the bible actually led him to become atheist.

I am NOT anywhere near as adamantly anti Christian as him. I am agnostic and think Christianity is fine as long as you don't force it on people or use it as an excuse for oppression.

Wow. I’ve heard some pastoral horror stories, but never one that turned a pastor into an atheist. Would you be willing to private message about this? I’d really like to hear about it.

No need to pm I can explain it here.

I don't actually know a lot about it but after graduation from what is now Emmanuel Christian Seminary he started preaching in a small town outside of Johnson City. 90% of people who went to the church he was at were very old: we went back to the town last summer and literally none of them were alive. Anyways these people were absolute garbage to him and most of them were awfully racist too. At this point he started to become more cynical towards Christianity and Christians and that evolved into atheism.

How long ago was this, and how were they garbage to him? And what state was it in? I ask you these things just to give me cultural reference.

This was in the early 90s.

They didn't like how young he was. They talked behind his back and tried to get him to leave.

Outside of Johnson City, Tennessee.

Many pastors & their families deal with at least what you’re talking about, if not a lot worse than what you’ve mentioned, unless you’re just not going into all the details. Almost all of them are gossiped about behind their backs, & 1,500 ministers per month are actually fired. You have to understand that church members, just because they’re Christians, aren’t perfect. They sin just like everyone else.

I’ve known many elderly people who were racist, all the way up through the early 2,000’s. Again, they’re not perfect.

Pastors can’t expect their congregants to be perfect, just like church members shouldn’t expect their pastors to be perfect, either.

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2) I’ve known pastors who were called to be ministers, who have dealt with this over & over in churches, but don’t turn against the ministry & DEFINITELY don’t turn against God over it. They turn TO God to help them deal with difficult church members.

I’m so sorry that your dad had to go through this, though. I know it’s not easy, but with God’s help, you can make it through it. You might be interested in a new series of polls that Tlaney1 and I are doing together, called “Myths that People Believe about their Pastors.” We’re going to be dealing with some of the tough issues that pastors have to face. Tlaney1 posted the first one last weekend. My comments give an Intro to the subject. I’m hoping to post the next one tomorrow, if Tom is available.

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I will check the polls out

I’m going to bed now, but will check back later.

Also I have time to formulate a full response to that now

I don't know if my dad was telling the whole story or not, but it doesn't matter really. It wasn't just this that made him atheist, that particular experience in his life was just a catalyst. The bright eyed young man that went into the church saw how bigoted and disgusting God's followers could be, and that led him to completely change his way of thinking, completely re-analyze everything he though he knew. And he decided, after many years, that he never truly believed. I don't know if he's right or not, but I respect his decision.

That makes a lot more sense—that he never truly believed to begin with! Thanks, Bower! I’m sorry he was mistreated.

Yeah I don't think he did. He was just told he did over and over again

That’s why it’s so important for each person to realize that accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a PERSONAL decision that each person has to make, on their own. They can’t get to heaven on their parents coattails or their beliefs.

And really, if you get right down to it, and he never accepted Jesus as his personal Savior, he had no business being a pastor of a church. That is actually called a false prophet. Could it be that the members of that church picked up on that, and THAT was why they questioned him and wanted him gone?


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Lol I asked him about that once and he was like "You think I was a false prophet? That's awesome" 😂

Yes. Sad to say there are more than a few ministers nowadays that are. The Bible warns against them and tells Christians that we are to be on guard against people like this that will lead us astray, as they are not true believers.

On the other hand, I think there are quite a few church members that fall in the same category, that give pastors fits, always trying to stir up trouble and sow dissension in the church.

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I don’t understand what you mean.

The left picture is correct

Oh, for sure! Thanks!