Show of HandsShow of Hands

TheSpookyGhost May 17th, 2017 1:56am

An 81 year old German man who was alive at the time of WWII was recently arrested in Hungary after fleeing from Germany, where he was sentenced to 10 years in prison for saying that the Holocaust didn't happen. Right decision or suppression of free S

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LaReine Communist Lesbian
05/17/17 12:31 pm

All too often lately people haven confused free speech with unopposed hate and the ability to acquire a platform on which to construct systemic violence.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 3:27 pm

You can absolutely oppose what they say, but it is wrong to put them in jail for saying something that someone deems "hate". That makes him a political prisoner despite Germany being a supposedly democratic state.

Zinkshadow1 Tallahassee
05/17/17 11:55 am

The truth does not fear investigation.

CoffeeNow Powderpuff Leftist
05/17/17 12:31 pm

Apparently it does in Germany

commonsense America isnt racist
05/17/17 6:45 am

Free speech does not exist in many countries.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 3:29 pm

And countries like China are criticized for it, yet Germany is given a pass because it's a Western nation.

05/17/17 6:40 am

It's bad but you have to consider germanys position here. They were the home of the greatest monster the world has ever seen (maybe tied with Stalin) and don't want to go back to that time ever and are still looked at with a careful eye. They do everything in their power to eliminate the swastika from public. The face of Hitler is banned. I agree it's suppression of free speech but keep all that in mind.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 3:30 pm

If the people want another Hitler, that is their right. All they can do is use reason to convince people. The truth always prevails in a free and open society.

HammeringMan Gods Away On Business
05/17/17 4:44 am

He has a very complex history.
Public opinion should consider that before engaging in more Bloviation's.
My thoughts-
1: H Deniers are rude turds
2: Thousands of Deniers, and this guy gets sentenced to 10 years. Something else is going on here.

abusara i drink and i know things
05/17/17 4:26 am

He's not an American. The 1A only applies to Americans. Or so I'm told by certain members of the right wing.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 3:45 pm

Freedom of speech is a universal, God-given right that is even ordained in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Malekithe the Final Frontier
05/17/17 3:48 pm

The UN means nothing and is worthless.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 4:01 pm

Germany is a member of the UN whether you like it or not, and that means it needs to follow its rules. Moreover, as I stated above, freedom of speech is also a right intrinsic to all human beings, granted to us by God. No government has the right to obstruct it.

Malekithe the Final Frontier
05/17/17 4:58 pm

The UN enforces nothing and has no authority over sovereign nations. It is a corrupt and worthless organization.
Does Germany have any provisions guaranteeing the right of freedom of speech?
Does any other country?

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 5:47 pm

I agree that the UN doesn't enforce many of its provisions properly. However, this is a matter of principle. I also notice that you didn't respond to the other part of my comment.

Malekithe the Final Frontier
05/17/17 6:13 pm

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with god. It is a man made construct

Malekithe the Final Frontier
05/17/17 2:50 am

Does Germany have a right to free speech

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 3:46 pm

Humanity does. See my response to abusara above.

RussianThunder Russia and USA
05/18/17 4:48 am

No. They do not. The only country with real free speech is the US and maybe Australia.

outlaw393 Chaotic Neutral
05/17/17 1:16 am

The juice have to keep their lie alive.

CoffeeNow Powderpuff Leftist
05/17/17 12:40 am

Oh the irony...

The Germans just can't do anything in moderation can they?

Mackinaw Wolverine State, est.1837
05/16/17 11:12 pm

Funny how the Germans end up being so authoritarian when trying so hard not to be authoritarian.

Praetorianus In the uncanny valley
05/16/17 9:11 pm

Way overblown though I think the harsh sentence is mostly due to the second charge "inciting hate" known in Germany as Volksverhetzung. It basically means you call for hate, even violence, against the government, a minority, any group.

Praetorianus In the uncanny valley
05/16/17 9:13 pm

The Holocaust denying law known as "Auschwitz lie" shouldn't exist since it restricts free speech, the other issue is more problematic.

Praetorianus In the uncanny valley
05/16/17 9:25 pm

Horst Mahler rings a bell, the article refreshed my memory.
He was a radical and troublemaker first left extremist then right extremist.
Germany fears such elements. Such a sentence wouldn't be given to an unknown blogger.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/16/17 9:53 pm

What do you mean by "troublemaker"? Did he actively call for or act with violence? If not, I don't believe it is the government's place to decide why someone can or can't hate someone else.

Praetorianus In the uncanny valley
05/16/17 9:58 pm

See in thread below. Troublemaker is way understated. Terrorist and cofounder of the Baader-Meinhof group.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/16/17 7:37 pm

They seem to have a knack for authoritarianism.

Praetorianus In the uncanny valley
05/16/17 9:56 pm

Read about Mahler:

This man co-founded the infamous RAF terrorist group in 1970 and later worked for the Stasi.
He is an extreme radical and terrorist.
I can't blame Germany for not forgiving his deeds.
It's a bit like Al Capone getting nailed on tax evasion.
He's enemy of the state #1.

Praetorianus In the uncanny valley
05/16/17 10:03 pm

Oh, and bank robbery was also on his list of charges.
I'll defend free speech but this man is dangerous with more than words.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/16/17 11:37 pm

As far as I can tell, Mahler hasn't committed any terroristic acts ever since he left the far-left. The bank robberies were committed in 1970, so they were definitely not on his list of charges. If the government had a problem with his terroristic actions, they should have prosecuted him back then. It seems to me that he has since decided to work within the system and even acted as an attorney, yet the German government has repeatedly imprisoned him and restricted his freedom of movement.

It is clear that he has had no intention of acting violently ever since his conversion, yet he has repeatedly been charged with "incitement of the masses" (sounds like an indictment you would hear from court in China) for Holocaust denial, once for giving a Hitler salute (seriously), and once for being, and I quote the judge, "not able to be re-educated". If this isn't brainwashing, I don't know what is. It's clear that Mahler is being punished for crimes of thought rather than crimes of action.

Praetorianus In the uncanny valley
05/17/17 12:12 am

He's definitely singled out for his past.
I still think this is not a good example to show how Germany handles freedom of speech in general.
The Holocaust denial law is a quirk but normally, freedom of speech is valued as much as in the US.

TheSpookyGhost paleoconservative
05/17/17 3:50 pm

Volksverhetzung, meaning "incitement of the masses" (which he was also convicted of) can be used for a wide range of speech unrelated to the Holocaust.