Show of Hands

1. Two people being together can hardly be called globalization. From there, they diverse into the different tribes and races we have today.

2. God does not expect nor possibly even want everyone to be Christian. If that were his will, he would have already made it so, but alas he believes in free will and looks only for conviction that is found through one's own introspection.

If God wanted everyone to be Christian he would have designed us that way...we have free will which means the free will to make our own mistakes...what deniers seem to not understand (or don't care) is that the days of miracles are long over. People always say "if God loves us so much why does he let people die" when Jesus died on the cross the day of miracles ended. No more striking down enemies with lightning, no more rising the dead, we have the free will to make mistakes and that is how God intended for us to be.

God desires/wants everyone to be saved. In order to be saved you must accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and believe he is the son of God and rose from the dead. EVERYONRE will have to have that same belief in order to be saved. God knows that everyone will not be saved, but he desires that everyone will.... Yes he gave us free will, but he wants us all to come to Christ....

@TheSpookyGhost how do you reconcile the fact that your reasoning is in direct contradiction of what God Himself claims in His Word?

@Xtarite just because we have the free will to make mistakes doesn't mean God wants us to make mistakes. When a couple marries they have the free will to stay together or cheat on each other. Does that mean each wants the other to cheat? Besides, you're reasoning is in direct conflict to what God reveals in the Bible. If you you claim about God contradicts what He claims about Himself shouldn't we go with what He says about Himself?

The latter part of that sounds exactly like what humanity is doing today.

I totally agree, Spooky!

Lots of conjecture here. The Bible states the tower was constructed against Gods will and as a subterfuge to his assurances.

Today's trend toward a global community is in no way against biblical commands.

It has inadvertently or not caused a great spike in sin. Moreover, God clearly does not want humanity United as one, yet that is what we're doing. When humans created the Tower of Babel, they weren't defying "biblical commands" either.

I am a history buff and know the scriptures pretty well. What gives the suggestion there is advise against unity?? Seems a bit afield of what I've studied.

They said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens: let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

I could be wrong, but I have always taken this to mean that they thought they were so smart that they could band together and show God they were smarter than him. I take it that they're saying, "We don't have to follow all these laws that God has told us we have to follow. We can reach heaven another way. We're so smart, we'll show HIM who is boss!"

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Part 2. Hammering--the Scripture says, "But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Indeed the people ARE one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. Therefore, its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth."

If that's not a disavowal of unity, I don't know what IS!

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Interesting analysis.

God had promised protection from a world wide flood.

The people doubted his promise.

They were building a Tower to escape a flood not seek an alternative path to heaven. That escape was in defiance of Gods plan.

The thought that confounded languages was to prevent global unity is a bit of a reach.

But:::

I fear global financial unity for other reasons. That much power in a central command is not likely to be a good thing for the working class.

All that said. I have enjoyed your thoughts. Nice conversation without reaching the Ugly style even too often here. Thanks again for the More Stimulating Chat.

Are you saying they built the tower to escape a flood that God promised would never happen again? How do you get that from this Scripture?

When he scattered them abroad, on purpose, do you not think that was to keep them from uniting? If not, for what purpose did he spread them abroad over the face of the earth?

I've also enjoyed talking to you. I try to ALWAYS keep it civil and won't abide with anyone that can't. I've actually put a handful of people on ignore if they can't control themselves and attack me personally. I don't put up with that kind of behavior IRL and I'm not gonna put up with it here! Lol

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Yeah, I'm not sure where you're getting those ideas from? The Bible states the specific reason they were building the tower was to reach the heavens. It makes no mention of them worrying about a second flood.

Cite the Source. The original Hebrew reference the sons of man escaping to Babilum, the gates of heaven,
The story of the tower of Babel explains the origins of the multiplicity of languages. God was concerned that humans had blasphemed by building the tower to avoid a second flood so God brought into existence multiple languages.[16]

Coogan, M. A Brief Introduction to the Old Testament: The Hebrew Bible in its Context. (Oxford University Press: Oxford 2009). p51

I cite the Scripture itself. I don't need some Harvard professor interpreting it for me. The entire passage is quoted by 4JC above.

Sorry, Oxford professor.

I agree with Spooky. My source is a hubby that has a B.A with a major in religion, plus an M.Div (Master of Divinity). That's a total of 7 years of higher education.

He reads Hebrew, and has an entire library (an entire room of our home) full of commentaries, concordances, books about the Bible, Christianity, counseling, and pastoring. He has 50 years of studying the Bible, and 40 years of preaching the Bible under his belt!

This is in addition to my 39 years of studying the Bible and being in church for at least 5 hours a week.

I asked hubby about this professor, and your interpretation. He had never heard of that professor, and said that professor is coming at it from a liberal viewpoint and is REALLY reaching.

More....

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Part 2. Hammering, I suggest that you study a wide variety of commentaries, instead of taking what one person has said. I'm sure you'll find that the vast majority agrees with what the Scripture clearly states, which I've typed out for you above.

Some of what I wrote was my own words, other was directly from the notes of The Word in Life Study Bible, Thomas Nelson Publishers, NKJV. And what I put in quotes was Scripture, verbatim.

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I am certain your convictions are honest. And your husband is certainly well studied. The Harvard professor, your husband and I have earned advanced degrees both in religious studies and other fields. I would not assume that any of us holds the absolute truth to a multi millennial document that has been rewritten many times after being retold for generations of oral traditions. So on this matter like hundreds of others, the Christian and the Jewish community hold a wide range of interpretations. Perhaps that's a divine plan to encourage study and cooperation.

Numerous churches teach the "flood avoidance" theory, some are harshly conservative. I do not see this dichotomy as a Liberal/Conservative position as it arose long before the current political strife developed. Rather it is the honest outcome of a master creator's decision to not offer an updated personalized set of instructions since Mount Ararat. Hammer smiles and relaxes as he sips a cup of freshly pressed Moroccan expresso, untainted by sugar or cream. He is certain you are now either open to his opinion or understand his lack of conviction regarding the specificity of this particular interpretation.

Thanks, Hammer. That does shed more light on where you're coming from. Can you tell me which denominations believe what you are proposing? I'm coming from the point of view of a Southern Baptist, and I believe in the inerrancy of the entirety of the Bible, so that is one of the differences between us.

Yes, it has been translated several times, to make the language easier to understand, but I believe that God led all those men, just as he inspired the original authors. Just the fact that prophets over thousands of years prophesied about Jesus and got it right, and it was recorded over many hundreds of years, goes to show the validity of the oral traditions.

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Part 2. You have to admit, that they probably had MUCH better memories before written language. Just look at the differences between kids now that don't have to memorize phone numbers and facts because they can look everything up on their phones. I think this is going to be a detriment to their generation in the future! I just read a meme that said that in the future, anyone that can do math in their heads are going to be considered supernaturally endowed! Lol

You've said you have a degree in religion. Would you mind sharing what that degree is, and from what university? I'd also like to know if you're a person of faith, and if so, which faith, or if you just study the Bible for it's historical significance. Thanks so much! I'm really enjoying the convo!

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Me? Post graduate degree. And yes it's a doctorate. Which university? Ivy League.
But.
That's irrelevant.
No earthly university degree can elevate anyone to the position of absolute authority on the scripture. So I listen and learn.

As for biblical accuracy I am certain you have bumped into a number of conflicts over your course of studies. For example, the state of the dead, baptism by immersion or sprinkling, Saturday or Sunday worship, the correct way to celebrate the Sabbath, tithing, and of course the nature of the Godhead. Salt in speaking in tongues, 666, the mark of the beast, the status of Old Testament authority and Levitical health laws to get a really solid grasp of why an intelligent Bible student cringes to step to close to an absolute belief in their favored interpretation.

Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise.

Verily I say unto you, today you shall be with me in paradise.

Next!

Oh, I didn't mean it that way--I was just curious as to what your degree was in.

Nope, I don't have any conflicts on any of those subjects. I know what I believe, according to Scripture.

I don't understand that last part of your comment about paradise, twice, and then the word Next.

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Jesus either confirms the thief will meet him in paradise TODAY.

OR Jesus says today I am telling you that we will eventually be together in paradise.

It lends a very different interpretation of the argument on the state of the dead.The scripture as you know says the dead no not anything. That is remarkably different then some churches belief that soon after death the soul goes immediately to heaven.

And I believe it is healthy to be confident in your beliefs regarding the interpretation of Scripture. However, many honest Christians hold vastly differing views than you hold. It would be tough for me to sit in judgment and decide which is more scripturally authentic.