Show of HandsShow of Hands

Show Of Hands July 17th, 2013 7:51pm

"Humans are too selfish by nature for either pure capitalism or pure socialism to ever work." Agree or disagree?

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LeftLibertarian The Age of Outrage
07/07/15 8:32 pm

If human beings have a capacity for selfishness, they should not be put in an environment that makes it worse. Socialism has been implemented very correctly, look into Anarcho Syndicalist Catalonia, the Ukrainian Free Territory, and the EZLN.

Linner
07/22/13 5:32 pm

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

LeftLibertarian The Age of Outrage
07/07/15 8:30 pm

That's why I'm a socialist, one who rejects taking state power.

dylancatlow Oregon
07/20/13 7:41 pm

This is a very flawed question. I think pure, unregulated capitalism can and would be a success by virtue of rational selfishness, not in the absence of.

mbaird
07/20/13 6:49 pm

obviously its never worked before, why would it start now?

LeftLibertarian The Age of Outrage
07/07/15 8:30 pm

Revolutionary Catalonia, Free Territory of Ukraine, and the Zapatista community today.

july475
07/19/13 4:41 pm

Both systems sound really good on paper but there are problems when put into practice

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Mattwall1
07/19/13 11:05 am

Very slippery slope and for the record Im playing devils advocate here

Mattwall1
07/19/13 11:05 am

To think4yourself the revolution in America was over the fact we had no MPs in parliament, but the argument tends to go the people have the right to protect their rights, it never says it has to be in the "spirit" of the American revolution,

demonio Wisconsin
07/18/13 8:08 pm

Yes without controls there would be a couple very rich and the rest poor. With socialism even though everything is supposed to be equal there is always a ruling class and they has the power because they control distribution. There needs to be reform

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Atheist A sheep amidst wolves
07/18/13 2:19 pm

I do believe that people are inherently greedy and lazy. You want to know why something happened? I'd bet the motivation was greed or laziness.

rcgrant south carolina
07/18/13 1:04 pm

no....politicians are to greedy

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NUwriter
07/18/13 8:58 am

As for the inflation - if you go by the CPI, maybe but that ignores the prices of food and fuel. It also ignores the stock market, and capital investment - the places where inflation shows up first. Right now, much of the new money is in reserves.

ant07 AL
07/18/13 7:20 am

I don't think the question makes sense. If humans are very selfish then wouldn't capitalism work perfectly? Capitalism is based in human selfishness. The statement makes absolutely no sense.

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NUwriter
07/18/13 6:44 am

In pure capitalism, (not mercantilism), but one without state intervention, selfishness requires that one serve others to attain wealth. This is the nature of voluntary, uncoerced trade.

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NUwriter
07/18/13 6:42 am

Socialism as an economic system cannot work. Ludwig von Mises showed this in 1920. Socialism cannot calculate. This is why in socialist systems you see vast surpluses of some goods, and dire shortages of others.

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theNobamist Silicon Valley
07/22/13 10:14 pm

And Marx said that for a socialist system to work, it must come after a system that ensured that all needs were met. What an assumption!

spero42 Warrington, PA
07/18/13 5:33 am

The funny thing is, socialism is a governmental system and capitalism is an economic system. That means you can have both.

Taxes do not obstruct a "pure capitalist system." You're free to make money, you just give some of it to the state...

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spero42 Warrington, PA
07/18/13 5:34 am

Even Adam Smith said that taxes were necessary, and taxing the rich higher percentages was proper.

spero42 Warrington, PA
07/18/13 5:34 am

And the dissolving of private property is not socialism, it's Marxist Communism. That's not the same thing...

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:39 am

Spero, Smith made a great number of errors, and is by no means the end-all-be-all of free market economists. Cantillon, Turgot, and Bastiat were all far, far more sound. Taxes are nor "neccesary" - they are theft.

ModerateGOP26 Maine
07/18/13 9:37 am

Even if he supported taxing the wealthy "progressively," 40+% is absurd.

bringstheeagle Colorado
07/18/13 5:19 am

Should be two separate questions.

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honest
07/18/13 5:17 am

I think the more you take from someone the more greedy they become.

itsbread Southern California
07/18/13 1:33 am

Capitalism functions on using greed against the wealthy.

robbyjr04
07/18/13 1:07 am

There must be balance in ALL aspects of life...

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:45 am

No, you don't need to balance the cooperation of capitalism with the violent coercion of socialism.

wingman646 Jacksonville
07/18/13 12:16 am

I'm sad to see that 19% of those polled haven't a clue about the true nature of humanity :\ ...or they aren't honest with themselves.

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EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/18/13 8:59 am

Proponents of "absolute capitalism" include Nobel Prize economist Milton Friedman (well, he still wanted VERY little regulation, but for the time his views were fairly radical), Economist Dr. Bryan Caplan, and legal scholar Dr. David Friedman.

EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/18/13 8:59 am

Oh, right, and Nobel Prize economist Friedrich Hayek.

wingman646 Jacksonville
07/18/13 9:07 am

Right...in theory it's all good and well, but then you add people into the situation and the defecation hits the oscillation.

EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/18/13 9:10 am

A central assumption made in economics is that people are self-interested.

wingman646 Jacksonville
07/18/13 9:13 am

I would say it's more of a historically proven fact than an assumption.

EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/18/13 9:14 am

It's only an assumption. People will act in their self-interest most of the time, but not always. It's just an approximation.

Congressman Louisiana
07/17/13 11:17 pm

So long as greed exist, all systems will be flawed.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/18/13 5:42 am

So long as people exist there will be crime, and greed, and benevolence, and love, and hate, and ..........

wiildkat Propertarian
07/17/13 11:11 pm

It's not because of greed that socialism doesn't work. It's because of the knowledge problem.

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theavgguy I.E.
07/17/13 11:27 pm

What the more or less educated a country?

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:46 am

No, avguy, that central planners can never have enough information to allocate resources efficiently. The market - millions of minds and preferences working together through the price system will always be superior,

swatops07
07/17/13 10:58 pm

Laissez faire worked

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thatguy2 We tried to warn you
07/17/13 11:12 pm

Agreed. Designed to funnel money upward and that's exactly what it does.

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:47 am

No thatguy2, laissez faire led to far greater improvements for the poor than the rich. The rich were well off in the middle ages on through. But the poor's standards of living went up tremendously during the 19th century.

scottt
07/17/13 9:40 pm

Generosity works in any civil system.

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think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 11:21 pm

Depends what you consider generous. Some people's idea of generosity is taking other people's money and spending it on themselves.

smacc DunningKruger
07/17/13 11:45 pm

No one defines it that way.

wingman646 Jacksonville
07/18/13 12:17 am

Obama does...

smacc DunningKruger
07/18/13 6:14 am

Please give me an example of Obama taking money from others and giving it to himself and calling it generosity.

scradoozy Tennessee
07/18/13 9:15 am

Just spent $100,000,000 on vacation to africa

wingman646 Jacksonville
07/18/13 9:28 am

How about the American people do generously providing his family a vacation every single month? A $100 million bender in Africa?!? Seriously now...

smacc DunningKruger
07/18/13 9:45 am

Those are complaints about the presidency not Obama. Unless you say Obama alone should not take vacations.

ladyniner81 no hope for humanity
07/18/13 9:52 am

My beef is ANY president spending that much cash on a vacation and throwing it on the taxpayers. Now I know people including presidents need vacations, but it should come out of their pockets. I've been bitching about presidents going on too many vacations since Carter. so so this is nothing n

think4yourself Not a safe space
07/18/13 1:44 pm

obama stopped tours of the whitehouse for school children when one if his golf trips would pay for over a year of them.

smacc DunningKruger
07/18/13 5:08 pm

That would be funding. If it is cut by congress you should talk to them.

scottt
07/17/13 9:34 pm

We have a socialist version of capitalism. If the govn't did 0% handouts (but still set business parameters: ex. minimum wage/ working conditions) the consequence of starving becomes accountability to get a job ect. Still not a flawless system though

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think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 10:20 pm

We shouldn't have 0 handouts but we shouldn't have the 50% now. It doesn't have to be one or the other. If we cut out the waste, fraud, and abuse we could cut it down to 10% and still provide for the truly needy.

theavgguy I.E.
07/17/13 9:30 pm

Capitalism is nothing more than a pyramid scheme. The bigger the pyramid the bigger the company. The key is to be at near the top not the bottom.

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EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/17/13 11:12 pm

Definitely not an economics major.

theavgguy I.E.
07/17/13 11:22 pm

Broken down to its simplistic terms. Many people buying the goods and making the goods. It all goes up to the top person. with many layers in between, look at an organizational chart, what do you call it? I call it a pyramid.

EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/17/13 11:27 pm

Actually, economies are, in their most basic form, circular. Learning this would take literally five minutes of research.
justdan93.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/111.jpg

Like I said, not an econ major.

theavgguy I.E.
07/17/13 11:37 pm

Economics yes are circular. Capitalism is a company / person making or selling a widget or whatever put a bunch of these together and you can drive an economy, the structure of the company is still shaped like a pyramid I am being simplistic.

EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/17/13 11:54 pm

Capitalism is an economic system. What you're referring to is called a firm.

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:49 am

Avguy, once again you prove yor fundamental ignorance. In every voluntary trade, both sides perceive benefit, or the trade would not occur. Your Marxist version has been disproved for 150 years.

tidford My little piece of heaven
07/17/13 9:23 pm

Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Jim Jones - all self-identified Socialists. Where are the free-market Capitalist rulers who can match their numbers? Never have been, never will be.

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GoFlo Peace Through Strength
07/17/13 9:22 pm

True capitalism and true socialism would actually work, you could go either way. The ideas sound fantastic on paper. The problem is that people are involved.

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think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 10:17 pm

At this moment in time the more capitalistic a country is the better the people live and the more socialistic a country is the more impoverished. We can talk theory or what things should be but I look at what is best now, which is capitalism.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/18/13 5:43 am

Socialism or communism do not look good on paper unless you have failing eye sight.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/18/13 5:44 am

The first thing that jumps off the page at me is the loss of I do visual liberty that's required to make a collectivist system work.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/18/13 5:45 am

"Loss of individual liberty."

Darn cucumber.

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:51 am

GoFlo, capitalism works wonderfully in practice. 80% of the people currently walking around today are alive because of the prosperity and innovation of capitalism.

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:51 am

100 million people were killed by their own Socialist governments in the 20th century.

thatguy2 We tried to warn you
07/17/13 9:13 pm

The main problem with these arguments, much like religious arguments, is that people conflate these systems with the actions of people who claim to champion said systems.

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thatguy2 We tried to warn you
07/17/13 9:13 pm

For example, giving a CEO millions in severance after being fired for tanking a company is not capitalism but it is defended in the name of capitalism

thatguy2 We tried to warn you
07/17/13 9:19 pm

So then when Occupy Wall Street and others are protesting capitalism, they are largely protesting this pseudo capitalism

NUwriter
07/18/13 6:53 am

Thatguy, it's mercantilism that they're protesting. Which would be more sympathetic if they were not calling for more mercantilsm. Or outright Marxism.

Capitalism
07/17/13 8:58 pm

These poll results and comments disappoint me and make me worry about what lies in store for the future of America. Socialism will always fail, Capitalism is at the root of what caused the United States and many other areas such as Hong Kong and South Korea to become what they are today.

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Capitalism
07/17/13 11:00 pm

You know very well I do not mean today as in this very moment, what I mean is that Capitalism set the foundation of which we have based this country off of. Laissez Faire worked, the depression of 1921 proved that.

wiildkat Propertarian
07/17/13 11:12 pm

Amen, capitalism! How many of you had history teachers that neglected to teach you about the recession of 1921?

Capitalism
07/18/13 12:16 am

I haven't heard of one frankly.

Capitalism
07/18/13 12:42 am

That is to say I have not heard of one who spent time on that subject.

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:08 am

ClarityRose, it was socialism that has led to the US debt.

Mattwall1
07/17/13 8:58 pm

T think4yourself how am I defending communism, but if I may go on a limb, if u support the right to revolution using arms, what if it was a communist revolution? Would u feel the same way. I'd suppose it but many have said the people may revolt so...

think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 10:12 pm

The revolution in America was for more freedom less government. A communist revolution is for less freedom more government. Big difference.

Mattwall1
07/20/13 9:06 pm

Maybe, bit once you claim the right to revolt against the government for reason A, how can you stop it for reasons, B,C,D or so on. I'm not saying I would support communism as I wouldn't but there is a huge slippery slope if you allow a revolution

Mattwall1
07/20/13 9:08 pm

And the revolution was mostly over slack of representation in parliament, the "fear of government" was a fear that as long as the colonies weren't represented there was room for abuse, if the colonies had been given MPs the issue may well have been avoided

Mattwall1
07/20/13 9:08 pm

And the revolution was mostly over slack of representation in parliament, the "fear of government" was a fear that as long as the colonies weren't represented there was room for abuse, if the colonies had been given MPs the issue may well have been avoided

Capitalism
07/17/13 8:58 pm

These poll results and comments disappoint me and make me worry about what lies in store for the future of America. Socialism will always fail, Capitalism is at the root of what caused the United States and many other areas such as Hong Kong and South Korea to become what they are today.

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raywygo Pittsburgh
07/17/13 8:57 pm

Well our current government wants to control everything so were headed towards socialism.

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nightcrow44 the dark side
07/17/13 9:07 pm

You got that right it's scary but with everything Obama has put on place we are teetering ... We need to wake up "this is how freedom dies, with thunderous applause"

eaglsnrebls
07/17/13 8:56 pm

The problem aren't regular citizens being greedy. It's politicians who are greedy.

Socialism and capitalism could be perfect if the elected officials were %100 selfless.

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theavgguy I.E.
07/17/13 9:20 pm

The problem is when people get a taste of the nanny state (socialism) their appetite becomes ravenous.

boboli
07/18/13 3:36 am

The problem with capitalism isn't the politicians, its the corporations.

jrvrn Philly suburb
07/18/13 3:43 am

The corporations own the politicians.

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:09 am

Socialism cannot work. Socialism cannot calculate. I

think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 8:30 pm

Communism and socialism is about taking other people's stuff, that is why most people are poor in those countries. Capitalism is about having the opportunity to earn your own stuff. Capitalistic countries are the most charitable countries.

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nightcrow44 the dark side
07/17/13 8:44 pm

True communism is a society of sharing to benefit all it's people BUT greed gets in the way and it becomes a dictatorship

think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 8:49 pm

Communism will never work in a free society. Communists have started communes in America and they always fail because if the lazy people get the same as the hard workers, the hard workers will either leave or stop working so nothing gets done.

nightcrow44 the dark side
07/17/13 9:04 pm

Or like I said it becomes a dictatorship like it did in the people's republic of China or in socialism such as the united soviet socialist republic (USSR) neither one works because if greedy politicians who are too power hungry.

theavgguy I.E.
07/17/13 9:22 pm

All the big communism experiments have failed.

nightcrow44 the dark side
07/17/13 9:25 pm

If Obama has his way we are next

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:10 am

Nightcrow, true communism leads to people starving to death by the millions. It cannot calculate, cannot coordinate production. This is before you get to the obvious incentive problem.

nightcrow44 the dark side
07/18/13 7:40 am

Nuwriter the communism you are talking about is the reality of communism not the way it was supposed to work. communism everybody is supposed to get an equal share of society great idea right, no because greed as this is a platform for dictatorship.

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:44 am

The communism I'm talking about is exactly the way it's supposed to work. State-owned capital. Everybody shares poverty equally. Communism cannot calculate in the models, either.

nightcrow44 the dark side
07/18/13 7:49 am

Trust me I'm not for communism or socialism (even though this country is on a fast train to it thanks to this president) but if you see the way true communism is set up it can potentially work, will it ever no because there has to be a leader and ..

nightcrow44 the dark side
07/18/13 7:51 am

That leader will always be corrupt if unchecked. Which is what happens in those countries like china and Russia

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:59 am

Nightcrow, "true" communism cannot work. You need a price system. Please read Mises book "Socialism". Central planning cannot work. One person cannot know the preferences of millions of other people.

Mattwall1
07/17/13 8:28 pm

To answer jenjohnson I dispise communism I support some socialist policies those being economic, communism is uber conservatism where the general secretary controls everything, universal healthcare yey learn the difference between the 2

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think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 8:44 pm

The liberals are the ones that are always defending communism. Communist party USA endorsed obama both times.

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:12 am

Mattwall, the difference is degree, but they fail for the same economic reasons. If you like people being able to get good healthcare, you'd want it as capitalist as possible. The current problems are all socialist in nature.

mitchrapp1 Florida
07/17/13 8:19 pm

Altruism is the true evil, because it tells people to sacrifice themselves for the sake of sacrifice, and that pursuing their own interest is somehow immoral. That is a horrible thing to teach people.

jlheathfam
07/17/13 11:10 pm

And yet the there are benefits to self for altruism actually. Self confidence, influence, and an overall positive
feeling for the good you've done.

rautan
07/18/13 7:19 am

Andrew Ryan, is that you?

mitchrapp1 Florida
07/17/13 8:17 pm

Selfishness, properly understood, does not involve screwing over other people. Only when most people finally learn this will our rotten, altruism-centered culture improve.

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nightcrow44 the dark side
07/17/13 8:16 pm

I hate greed and as long as there are people who have more than others there will always be greed by nature and when they have too much money they turn into democrats because high taxes doesn't bother them hence all of the rich hypocrites out there

think4yourself Not a safe space
07/17/13 8:37 pm

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
― Thomas Sowell

Abolitionist Voice of the people
07/17/13 8:44 pm

"Taxes is the price we pay for a civilized society."

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:14 am

"Taxes are the price we pay for an impoverished society."

bubblebutt Pollos Hermanos
07/17/13 8:14 pm

"Greed is good" - Gordon Gekko
Expressed in the simplest way possible, capitalism is the best market system in the world

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thatguy2 We tried to warn you
07/17/13 8:27 pm

A justification for sociopathic behavior

kermie gaytopia
07/17/13 8:34 pm

Well that certainly is simple.

bubblebutt Pollos Hermanos
07/17/13 8:50 pm

America hasn't been the greatest world power for over 100 years by accident

thatguy2 We tried to warn you
07/17/13 8:55 pm

It also hasn't been purely capitalistic

bubblebutt Pollos Hermanos
07/17/13 8:57 pm

Not purely, no...but still more capitalist than all other countries for the most part

kermie gaytopia
07/17/13 9:34 pm

So... Being the greatest world power must be something that you value then?

NUwriter
07/18/13 7:15 am

Socialism is sociopathic.

b1ackpr1nce Virginia
07/17/13 8:08 pm

In The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith didn't like businessmen much at all, but he pointed out that even businessmen who were bad often ended up helping society as a whole b/c they would find ways to efficiently make money by supplying needed products.

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Brrrrrrrrr
07/17/13 7:56 pm

Capitalism works just fine with selfish people. In fact, it requires everyone from the top to the bottom to prioritize their desires over those of others.

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Brrrrrrrrr
07/17/13 7:56 pm

It also requires the people to be moral beings, but can still be made to work on an immoral people with the aid of property and contract laws.

MrMilkdud
07/17/13 8:07 pm

I think there's a difference between rational self interest and selfishness, though.
selfishness is meeting an immediate need without considering short or long term consequences.
Rational self interest considers consequences and long term benefits

MrMilkdud
07/17/13 8:08 pm

Capitalism is rooted in rational self interest- selfishness throws a wrench in it because people are thinking more about immediate profit than long term benefits.

northcoreya Florida
07/17/13 8:09 pm

It doesn't "work just fine" when the poor are forced to choose between starving and illegal activity.

MrMilkdud
07/17/13 8:11 pm

Northcoreya-
What you said is humorously ironic given your choice of screen names.

Brrrrrrrrr
07/17/13 8:14 pm

I think capitalists have longer time-preferences than people realize. That's what allows them to stay in business for long periods of time. The ones with shorter time-preferences go out of business quite often and make way for others.

Brrrrrrrrr
07/17/13 8:16 pm

In fact, that is also true for capitalist and socialist societies as a whole. Socialist societies don't last too long, capitalist societies enjoy much more longevity.

MrMilkdud
07/17/13 8:34 pm

I agree, brrr- but I think it's because of rational self interest, not selfishness

suppressedID That is my secret Cap
07/17/13 7:39 pm

But we fu€£ing ROCK at Anarchy!!!

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purplemonkey New York
07/17/13 7:24 pm

I don't agree...the Native American Indians seemed pretty socialist to me and they seemed to work...that is, until the white man came in and whiped them out.

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EveRose Certified Trans Gendercapitalist
07/17/13 7:35 pm

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. They were very territorial, and private property did exist. Please keep your pretty little fairy tales about my people out of here. Greed and war are constant throughout all cultures, and mine was no exception.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/17/13 7:38 pm

They owned slaves too. This is one factor that played a role in Indian involvement in the civil war (they fought with the south) and Oklahoma's eventual statehood.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/17/13 7:38 pm

Black slaves, just to be clear. Ya, personal property was alive and well in Indian culture.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/17/13 8:14 pm

Question: can anybody guess what techniques were employed to ensure the slaves worked, didn't revolt, and didn't run off?

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/17/13 8:18 pm

I'll give you a hint: the techniques did not involve paying the slaves, being patient and tolerant of them, or giving them a day off to celebrate kwanza.

deucediggz
07/17/13 8:27 pm

Sounds like you're glorifying slavery to me......all well and good until its your people that are enslaved

kermie gaytopia
07/17/13 8:38 pm

Lol "indian culture"... You guys do know there were hundreds of native tribes, right? There were brutal savages to communal brotherhoods and everything in between. It's frankly offensive to talk about them as a monolith.

TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/18/13 3:23 am

Indians owned slaves. I didn't say they all did. No monolith was used. Kermie. Haven't I heard you generalize about about republicans or Christians? I know I've heard you generalize about religion.

Hypocrite much?

cruckel Shadow Moses Island
07/17/13 7:17 pm

The issue is people think everything must be equal for everything to be fair.

I hate to break it to you, life isn't fair. Get used to it, or you're gonna have a horrible life complaining about everything.

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TempName14 Everywhere but nowhere
07/17/13 7:23 pm

That's right. Fair is not "equal." Fair is receiving what you've earned or negotiated for. There's no law or moral or ethic that exists naturally or universally which declares that everybody is supposed to have the same amount of "stuff."

elianastar Gab.ai FreeSpeech
07/17/13 7:58 pm

I could just hug you two. Well, technically, I *can't*, but if you were *here* I would. Couldn't have said it better!

thatguy2 We tried to warn you
07/17/13 8:19 pm

No, people, as in the majority/a lot, do not believe everything must be equal to be fair. This a strawman

Blarney Wrightville
07/17/13 7:12 pm

Damn it....rampant**

Some regulations on big business are necessary

Blarney Wrightville
07/17/13 7:13 pm

Wrong spot...I'm done with SOH for tonight I've proven I can't handle it...try her again in the morning

MoonFireDancer New Jersey
07/17/13 7:09 pm

A perfect system? Of course not! We are imperfect, a mix of wolves in sheep clothing, and naive little angels trying to navigate this crazy world.

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not_even Boston, MA
07/17/13 7:06 pm

Of course; imperfect humans cannot create a perfect system.

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duey in a fools paradise
07/17/13 7:04 pm

Pure capitalism was last practiced in the early 1900's. its not selfishness its greed. But greed has created millions of jobs and brought prosperity to millions as well. Socialism is unaffordable there isn't enough money to sustain it.

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