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rlands July 13th, 2013 2:04pm

In your opinion, does Machiavelli's concept of "the end justifies the means" usually stand true?

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Octopus
07/13/13 3:08 pm

No. If you use immoral methods to reach a positive result, it's not really worth it.

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MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 1:37 pm

Rlands, I love your new profile picture. ❤

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rlands
07/13/13 2:16 pm

The street one? Thanks! It's in Georgetown and then I filtered it like crazy :D

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 2:19 pm

Hehe, I kind of figured the latter part out. :) Hmm... I might put one of the ones I've taken in the city. (:

rlands
07/13/13 2:26 pm

Yeah that would be cool! I love this one because it almost looks like a cartoon, but it's a real place that I'm at almost everyday!

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 2:39 pm

Awe, that's cool. :) You just go for the scenery, or for work?

rlands
07/13/13 2:41 pm

It's just close by, so sometimes for shopping, going out to eat, or just walking around :) if only I worked in Georgetown!

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 2:44 pm

Oh, very nice. :D
What do you do for work, anyway? (:

rlands
07/13/13 2:54 pm

I actually work in politics :) it's a very exciting field to work in these days...

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 2:57 pm

What do you do? :P
I mean, are you actually a politician or are your a supporting character for a politician? (:

rlands
07/13/13 2:59 pm

Haha this is getting much too specific! But I'm not a big shot congressman or anything if that's what you're wondering :)

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 3:00 pm

Dear gosh, you could work for the cia. You're so secretive.

rlands
07/13/13 3:01 pm

Hey, I could work for the NSA too. Watch your back! Haha kidding :) I can honestly tell you I do NOT work for the nsa.

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 3:03 pm

Even if you did... I'm not afraid of you! ;P Come at me, rlands! *Jackie Chan hand taunt*

rlands
07/13/13 3:04 pm

Haha I'm not exactly the scariest person ever, so I think you're safe! :)

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 3:06 pm

Hahaha, I'm not either.
Besides, I couldn't see myself ever getting into a fight unless if someone were trying to hurt someone I know... (:

rlands
07/13/13 3:08 pm

Are you sure? Not even with me? I mean, they don't call me "pugnacious and fight-provoking rlands" for nothing...

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 3:10 pm

Yeah, OKAY. :P No, especially not you! (: You're awesome and an absolute sweetheart. ❤:D

rlands
07/13/13 3:11 pm

Ugh so I guess my tough girl exterior is wearing down...I see how it is.

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 3:15 pm

You had a tough girl exterior? I guess I have X-ray vision or something...







LEAD CLOTHES?! NOOOOOOOOO! ;P

rlands
07/13/13 3:20 pm

Haha :) I guess it's time to take off the leather jacket and studded leggings...back to pastel sundresses!

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 3:21 pm

Hmm, sounds good to me. :D And less... Thuggish. I could totally pull off a dress. Lmfao, just kidding...

rlands
07/13/13 3:45 pm

Haha whatever floats your boat! Im sure you'd be gorgeous dahhhhling :) and being thuggish every once and a while is well deserved. I spend plenty of time being non thuggish!

FIAT2LUX On Planet Earth
07/13/13 1:26 pm

Notice the word USUALLY in the question… As far as I'm concerned, the end RARELY justifies the means.

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Vincere Seattle
07/13/13 12:03 pm

Machiavelli was awesome and really smart, but he tended to lean towards moral relativism. Probably because of the time period he lived in.

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demonio Wisconsin
07/13/13 11:13 am

Every instance is so unique and what is right for one may not work for another. Also just because you got the result that you wanted doesn't mean you didn't pay too high a price for it. "At all costs" isn't always the best policy. Morals and ethics!!

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suppressedID That is my secret Cap
07/13/13 9:23 am

I'm sure that's what Hitler thought.



And BOOM! Thus endeth the thread.

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rlands
07/13/13 9:34 am

But his ends wasn't justifiable by anything. Thus endeth that theory.

Haha in all seriousness though, if the ends isn't justifiable do the means even matter?

FIAT2LUX On Planet Earth
07/13/13 9:09 am

Preventing a dictator from conquering the world by blowing his continent into non-existence. The end DOES NOT justify the means.

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satiricalnick meh
07/13/13 9:08 am

Abortion. Does the end justify the means?

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rlands
07/13/13 9:32 am

Many people would think it does...

skacey best poll is evenly split
07/13/13 8:30 am

With a sufficiently important ends this can be true. As an example, on Apollo 13, the ends of getting the astronauts safely back to earth justified nearly any means as long as it fulfilled that mission and did not jeopardize the ends.

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Keldeo Laverre City
07/13/13 8:24 am

Completely relative

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chile safer than congress
07/13/13 7:53 am

In his book "The Prince," Machiavelli was illustrating that absolute power corrupts absolutely. He had served under royalty that had been just, but when the leadership changed, so too did the way of business. The new approach was destructive.

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MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 7:35 am

In a debate about the merits of various moral theories, it is considered a fatal blow to any theory to be able to accuse its defender of asserting that "the ends justify the means." No moral theory in which this is true, allegedly, can ever be

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MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 7:37 am

worthwhile. "The ends justify the means" is actually an objection that is best applicable to intrinsic value theories - theories that hold that certain states have, for all practical purposes, an infinite value, such that they justify any and all

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 7:39 am

means. Any person who claims that the end cannot justify the means invariably ends up contradicting himself. At the same time, he says this he says that some other end (avoiding a particular set of acts) is so valuable that it justifies any and all

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 7:40 am

suffering that might go along with realizing that end. Do the ends justify the means? That all depends on your interpretation of ethics and morality. Generally, the ends do justify the means.

rlands
07/13/13 7:50 am

Very theoretical, but I get your point. Like I said and shame pointed out below, it can't be unconditional, but I do agree with you.

zuko on deck
07/13/13 7:56 am

Wow... My brain hurts. So if I hold to a certain set of moral and ethical principles, for me intrinsically, the end will always justify the means? But unless someone else holds the exact same values and the exact same frame of reference, they might

zuko on deck
07/13/13 7:58 am

See things differently, yes? So for Machiavelli, his end will always justify his means, but unless I share his positions exactly, I might say "no" to that principle.

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 8:15 am

Precisely. Machiavelli wrote "The Prince," as a guideline for those in positions of governmental power to hold unrivaled control over their populace. Those who share his beliefs [almost] fully would most likely believe that the ends always justify

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 8:16 am

the means. Those who don't, would most likely believe that the ends justify the means in some cases, but not all. That's usually the case.

zuko on deck
07/13/13 8:42 am

In a social debate, then, the end would only justify the means with collective agreement (which is highly improbable), and individual responses to any hypothetical end justifying the means to achieve it would likely be against that proposition.

MrLucchese If curious, ask.
07/13/13 9:09 am

That's not absolute, but I would say it's generally the case. Nice analysis.

spicysteve M14D SBS
07/13/13 7:26 am

I think it depends on what the ends and the means were.

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rlands
07/13/13 7:29 am

So I guess you wouldn't agree with it then :) like I said below, my only condition is that any harm caused by the means must be temporary.

DrCarpenter A2
07/13/13 7:17 am

No, but I will say I loved reading The Prince.

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MissN The Experiment
07/13/13 9:16 am

Yeah, don't know what it is about that book..

fixitlater My Life
07/13/13 7:12 am

I try to keep it that way but not everyone can see the bigger picture. At least it may be different than the picture I see.

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rlands
07/13/13 7:10 am

I am a very firm believer in this principle, personally. Most of the time (as long as you aren't hurting anyone) I don't care what you have to do as long as it turns out fine in the end.

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ShereKhan A very dark place.
07/13/13 7:15 am

Just remember though some of our greatest serial killers have been charismatic leaders justifying their means

rlands
07/13/13 7:16 am

True, but I'm not quite sure that fits this principle exactly. Their end is killing people...the means by which they do that is insignificant because their end is horrible!

ShereKhan A very dark place.
07/13/13 7:22 am

Outliers. They want their way of life to flourish just had to get rid of a few hundred thousand people that's all

rlands
07/13/13 7:26 am

Interesting. In their minds surely this does ring true. I'll restate my disclaimer then: only if the means doesn't permanently harm anyone :)

ShereKhan A very dark place.
07/13/13 7:33 am

I know ur heart is in the right place

rlands
07/13/13 7:39 am

:) thank you and I do see your point.

ShereKhan A very dark place.
07/13/13 7:09 am

As Spock said so eloquently the needs of the many out way the needs of the few

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ShereKhan A very dark place.
07/13/13 7:08 am

In most causes but there are always outliers

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