Show of HandsShow of Hands

gluxford1 December 28th, 2016 2:43am

The west is at war with radical Islam, and we should start treating it like a war. No more PC garbage. We should declare war, ban migration from terror hotbeds, imprison or execute traitors, spy on radical mosques, and level ISIS-controlled cities.

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 6:07 am

We should do the same thing we do for any other criminals, as terrorists violate international law. Go to the UN, give them a trial (in absentia if need be). If convicted, let the UN apprehend them and punish them accordingly.

Then, we absolutely need to consider why the terrorists are doing what they are doing. It's a cop out to simply assert that they hate us because of freedom. (Not to mention, all this increased state power is the opposite of freedom.) Listen to what people like Usama bin Laden have been saying. They're fed up with western imperialism. So maybe in the interest of our national security, we should leave the region and return to national autonomy. All this intervention is a violation of international law, anyway.

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DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 6:08 am

Lastly, we need to evaluate how successful the war on terror has been to date. Terrorism is at its highest in decades. Daesh exists now. The war on terror has not worked because the civilians in the region do not want western nations to occupy their nations. When we then occupy their nations, the people are more sympathetic to the terrorists, who are seen as freedom fighters.

We need to rethink our policy against Daesh. The reason terrorism has been getting worse is directly related to increased power of the American/European war machine. It seems logical to me that an even more powerful war machine to get Daesh will only make the problem worse.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 6:08 am

To address some of your points in your poll, decreased domestic freedom will alienate the Muslim American community, which is why some of them turn radical. There are also issues with free speech where you want to spy on radical mosques. Even Islamic fundamentalists have freedom of speech in this country. Imprisoning or executing traitors? Also sounds like a threat to free speech. And as I mentioned above, violating international law by declaring war and obliterating citizen residences will only make the problem worse, because they will rightfully view the United States and its allies as the bad guys.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 7:53 am

Well, what you just said was very revealing. "We should listen to Bin Laden". What the fuck? You almost sound like you sympathize more with him than the United States.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 7:58 am

ISIS has no right to exist and you sound like you are advocating for us to let them to continue to exist because "western imperialism" or some BS reason like that. Are you advocating for ISIS to continue to exist, because they will just continue to butcher innocent people across the west to further their Islamic holy war. Clarify what your second post means please. Also, terrorists are not just normal criminals. You cannot put them in the same league as pickpockets and muggers.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 8:00 am

When I said traitors, I was referring to those who spread ISIS propaganda online to recruit people for attacks against the United States. By doing that, they would be guilty of treason, which is still punishable by either life in prison without parole or death by lethal injection,

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 8:17 am

We should listen to Bin Laden tell us why he did the attack, instead of making up your own bullshit. Bush said that "they hate us for our freedom." Bin Laden said he doesn't us for our freedom. He said he too is fighting for freedom, freedom from western imperialism. I have no reason to believe otherwise, especially since I wouldn't describe America as the most free place, especially since the counter terrorism moves.

Daesh does not have a right to exist. But we have no right to drop bombs in Iraq and Syria. Looking pragmatically and not legally, bombs in Iraq (and the Middle East in general) is why Daesh exists, so we would be wise to try a different policy to get rid of them, ideally a policy that doesn't piss of the people were supposedly trying to save and a policy that doesn't violate international law.

Terrorists aren't like normal criminals. That's why we bring them before international courts and not civilian courts. I'd have liked to see America's evidence against bin Laden.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 8:24 am

Cracking down on their propaganda doesn't fix the problem. We have free speech in this country, even for speech we don't like. If you want to keep people from joining Daesh, don't give them a reason to want to. Include Muslim Americans in our society instead of discriminating against them. Leave the websites up. It's a bad precedent with regards to free speech, and it inhibits learning. I went to the Muslim brotherhood's website once because I wanted to read their official charter. I don't want to join the Muslim brotherhood. I wanted to learn. Don't inhibit learning.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 9:53 am

Free speech doesn't permit treason. I also find your victim blaming when it comes to terrorist attacks appalling. You are acting like an apologist for Bin Laden. The people in the twin towers did not deserve to die that day. The people at the Boston marathon bombing did not deserve to die. Do not try and justify what was done to those people because of "western imperialism". I have several close family members that enlisted after the attacks. They fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. They saw their buddies get murdered over there by the terrorist bastards you are defending right now and came back scarred for life. Are they agents of "western imperialism"? Do they deserve to die in your eyes? Your rampant anti-Americanism is revolting. There are very few things that offend me in this world, but insulting my country and our veterans does indeed offend me. Why the hell do you live in this country if you hate it this much? If the Middle East is so wonderful and progressive, move there.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 10:05 am

Your definition of treason is too broad for me to agree. I'm not victim blaming. The people who died in the twin towers were innocent. I'm saying we should have gone through the legal means to capture the perpetrators and put them before an international court. I also think we need to take the appropriate methods to prevent this from happening again. Listen to what bin Laden said. He said that he was fighting American imperialism. Maybe that means we should stop doing imperialism, because clearly it's dangerous for our own national security.

Your friends who died in Afghanistan did not deserve to die. They are as much victims as the Afghans and Iraqis they were fighting, victims of Washington's propaganda.

I've never claimed the Middle East is progressive. I've been clear that I believe the Middle East needs political and religious reform, just like the Catholic Church needed a few centuries ago in Europe. Are you paying for my trip to leave? If so, then I'll accept your offer.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 10:11 am

Terrorists are not victims. Stop creating excuses for Bin Laden. That man was an evil, murderous bastard. He was human garbage that deserved the bullets that were pumped into his worthless carcass.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 10:13 am

Also, America has not been an imperial power for quite a long time.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 10:14 am

I didn't call terrorists victims. I'm talking about the hundreds of thousand civilians dead, the millions displaced, the millions of refugees, the millions starving because humanitarian aid can't get into the country. Of course bin Laden was an evil man. But I would have liked to see him brought before an international court. That's how we deal with criminals. Vigilante justice is not real justice.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 10:15 am

America has been an imperial power ever since 1898 in the Spanish American War when we invaded Cuba and took possession of the Philippines.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 10:16 am

Cuba and the Philippines are no longer under U.S. control. Your argument makes no sense.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 10:22 am

Oh, and spreading propaganda in an attempt to recruit people for attacks against America counts as treason for me.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 10:25 am

You said that America has only recently become an imperial power. I said it's been going on for 120 years.

Spreading propaganda to do attacks in Iraq should also be illegal than too, right? Oh wait...

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 10:29 am

No, I said that America has NOT been an imperial power for a very long time. They key word in there is NOT, as in NOT anymore.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 10:31 am

You're saying America has never been an imperial power? Do you know anything about the Cold War or the Monroe Doctrine or Roosevelt's Big Stick foreign policy?

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 10:33 am

No, I'm saying it isn't one anymore. What century are you living in again?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 10:54 am

We continued to own the Philippines until the end of World War Two, and during the war with Japan we gained possession of many other island territories, some of which we own to this day. Not to mention the foreign intervention and setting up puppet states around the world to serve our economic interests.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 11:01 am

If you don't know about American foreign policy in the 20th century, it's more honest if you admit that you don't know about it. I'm not trying to be rude, but you may need to learn a bit more about the details in order to have a conversation about this topic.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 11:18 am

I just find it funny how fringe leftists like yourself think American power is a bad thing and assume that we are the root of all evil in the world. It's okay, you can just be honest and admit it.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 11:29 am

I never said we are the root of all evil in the world. Just a lot of it. And I'm honest about that. American power has been used to oppress. You claim to hate terrorists because they are fighting freedom, yet you defend the actions of the American state which reduce freedoms around the world. What happened in the 1920s that signified the end of American imperialism?

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 11:40 am

You wouldn't know what oppression is if it bit you in the ass. You live in one of the wealthiest states in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Move to Saudi Arabia and live there for a few years, and then you can talk to me about oppression. Until then, you can get off your high horse. Unlike you, I don't see our power as oppressive. I see American power as a point of national pride. So you can whine, moan, and complain all you want about something that happened several decades ago. You can keep living in the past and keep letting it define you and your ideology. As for me, I'm looking towards the bright and powerful future that this great country has with President Donald J. Trump at the helm for the next eight years.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 11:48 am

What are you on about? I never said I was oppressed. I'm representing the voice of the hundreds of millions who have been slaughtered, displaced, starved, etc. by our power, whose voices you refuse to accept as legitimate. I would have more national pride if I could be proud of the actions of our state, but I can't. Their track record on human rights and international law is horrendous, and I simply can't support that.

I'm not complaining about issues from the past. I'm complaining about current issues which continue to oppress people. The repercussions from the invasion of Afghanistan still exist, one of which is a very unstable and nuclear armed Pakistan, which is a huge threat to our national security. Or from the invasion of Iraq, which killed over a million people, has reignited sectarian divisions between sunnis and shi'ites, and has led to the rise of Daesh, which has also led to the brutality we're seeing in Syria!

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 11:52 am

I'm whining and moaning about the American armed and endorsed Arab coalition slaughtering thousands of civilians in Yemen to overthrow a new democracy and put a dictator back in charge. Bombing open air markets, mosques, blocking humanitarian aid, creating a fucking famine and starving the whole population. All this in the name American power and pride? I don't think so.

In case you haven't noticed, I don't care much what letter the president has next to his name. I've been criticizing Obama in my last two paragraphs, and I'm prepared to criticize Trump when he violates international law too, just like I would for Clinton. Foreign policy is the sole reason I supported Stein this cycle over the two main candidates. If we can trust Trump's word, he has promised to violate international law by purposefully bombing civilians. He said this on the campaign trail. I will continue to advocate for the rights of the voiceless.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 12:08 pm

If you speak for them, move to Syria to be on the front lines protesting instead of sitting on your privileged ass in Massachusetts complaining about how much you hate America on an app.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 12:12 pm

Also, bombing is a part of war. Deal with it. The world isn't all sunshine and rainbows where everyone gets along and sings Kumbaya. Would you have been opposed to bombing nazi-controlled cities? A lot of civilians died during that too. It was a necessary evil to defeat the Axis and liberate those within the death camps.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 12:13 pm

How would going to the front lines help me advocate for their rights? I'd be shot, and no one would know I existed. It's much more pragmatic to stay somewhere I won't get shot and petition the government, etc. But if you want to pay for me to leave, that offer is still on the table.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 12:15 pm

Nazi Germany is different because we didn't have international law back then and legal means to deal with their actions without bombs in the same sense as we do now. But in any case, I oppose bombing civilian outposts. Military targets only. I also think it's relevant that you know that for whatever reason, the US refuse to bomb Aushwitz and instead bombed oil wells nearby.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 12:39 pm

You liberals are so entitled. Pay for your own flight to the Middle East. You seem more loyal to it than you do to the United States anyway.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 12:40 pm

Oh, you're worried about getting shot? I thought the Middle East was some multicultural utopia that was so much better than America.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 12:45 pm

I'm not loyal to any territory. I'll condemn any bad actors, and I've condemned Osama bin Laden. I wanted him to be brought before a court, not executed through vigilante justice, but I still wanted him captured.

I never said the Middle East is a multicultural utopia. It'd be nice if it were, but it's not. I want my country to be a multicultural utopia, however.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 1:08 pm

Ha! You have been apologizing for Bin Laden for half this thread. Oh, and the United States isn't going to be a third-world multicultural flophouse. We rejected that at the ballot box back in November. Get ready for assimilation to happen again!

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 1:51 pm

Yuck. More dead Afghans and Iraqis and Syrians and Yemenis.

croopertrooper Greater Cincinnati Area
12/28/16 11:22 am

1) No more PC garbage - How does this help defeat ISIS or terrorism?
2) We should declare war - on what? An ideology? Good luck with that. Terrorism? Again, good luck with that. ISIS? Sure
3) ban migration from terror hotbeds - I would somewhat agree with this one
4) imprison or execute traitors - imprison
5) spy on radical mosques - No
6) level ISIS-controlled cities - and kill all the innocent people in the city, and then create more terrorism. Leveling an entire city that is controlled by rebels is just going to create more problems. You don't burn down a house to deal with an infestation. Especially if people are living in the house.

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DallasFan
12/28/16 11:08 am

The more you fight terrorists over there the more terrorists you create

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shygal47 Florida east coast
12/28/16 8:01 am

One cannot declare war on an ideology. That idea is just wrong, as well as impossible. Either pick a country to declare war on or step down this pugilistic commentary.
Terrorism is bad. We all know that.
No single country is responsible for the rise of terrorism.
Every single country has to control terrorism within their own borders.
Some countries take longer to get some sort of infrastructure to fight terrorism because they are poor countries.
If you want to fight terrorism, help the slower countries develop the infrastructure of communications.

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gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 8:03 am

We can formally declare war against terrorist groups, in this case, ISIS. They must be eradicated from the face of the earth.

shygal47 Florida east coast
12/28/16 8:17 am

I can see that you are not up for any mental challenges. Your rhetoric is not only just as inflammatory as ISIS', it is also equally biased and equally derogatory.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 8:20 am

Wow. Did you just compare me to a fucking terrorist organization? That is absolutely revolting. I don't kill people, I don't blow places and people up, so you're comparison is not only insane, but it's also completely uncalled for. You can have disagreements with people without comparing them to terrorists.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
12/28/16 11:46 am

You literally said in the poll question that you want to kill people and blow stuff up.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 12:10 pm

Using military force and a formal declaration of war. Do you understand what war is, snowflake? Clearly you don't.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
12/28/16 12:11 pm

Do you know how to have an intelligent conversation without resorting to name calling? Clearly you don't.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 12:12 pm

And we would be targeting terrorists, not civilians. Terrorists specifically target civilians that they deem to be infidels. Get your facts straight.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 12:13 pm

You two just called me a terrorist. If you don't want to be called names, don't call me one.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
12/28/16 12:14 pm

You have trouble with reading comprehension. All I did was point out a fact, kiddo.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
12/28/16 12:16 pm

If you have trouble accepting your own words when their pointed out to you, that's your own problem. But don't put words in my mouth. Don't be petty.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 12:27 pm

Did you not just see my post about the difference between what I said in the poll and with what the terrorists do. Also, several of my close family members are veterans of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They fought these terrorist bastards and came back with PTSD. How about I ask them if they think I'm a terrorist? Your comparisons are not only disgusting, but they also make no sense.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
12/28/16 12:30 pm

What comparisons? You're drawing some pretty strong conclusions from my single-sentence comment noting things you typed in the poll question.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
12/28/16 12:31 pm

Quit projecting insecurities.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 12:41 pm

Quit accusing people who disagree with you ideologically of being terrorists.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
12/28/16 12:45 pm

Again, didn't do that. If you disagree, please quote me where I did.

FarmerManE djent
12/28/16 7:44 am

Good in theory but you can't destroy an ideology. If you haven't noticed the trend, the more we get involved we in the middle east, the more they hate us. Leave them alone. Let them go back to killing each other instead of us

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suppressedID suck it Kyle
12/28/16 7:20 am

The West isn't at war with radical Islam. It's just a wet dream for a bunch of Alt-Rights and religious zealots.

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gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 7:25 am

Have you been living under a rock for the past 15 years?

ezh2o Texas Hill Country
12/28/16 7:57 am

_id = liberal zombie . . . 👹

suppressedID suck it Kyle
12/28/16 8:12 am

You all just confirm jihadists' claims of the return of Crusaders.

You're their best recruiting too. Well done.

ezh2o Texas Hill Country
12/28/16 8:19 am

ISIS started this war . . . the civilized world will finish it. Muslims do this every few hundred years to make the world in the image of Mohammed.

suppressedID suck it Kyle
12/28/16 12:08 pm

Feel free to go over there and take it on yourself.

ezh2o Texas Hill Country
12/28/16 12:21 pm

_id, even though I am a member of the civilized world, I would just get in the way at my age . . . What are you doing, other than supporting radical Islam, to end their jihad on the civilized world?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 10:11 am

ISIS started this war by invading a foreign country, toppling their leader, and exploiting sectarian divisions? Oh wait... that was Bush.

ezh2o Texas Hill Country
12/29/16 2:09 pm

Poor comparison . . . First, ISIS is not a country so kinda hard to invade a foreign country. Second, WTF . . .

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
12/29/16 2:14 pm

ISIS isn't a country, but Iraq and Syria are...

gluxford1 Arizona
12/29/16 2:17 pm

And they have several cities that are completely controlled by ISIS (Mosul and Raqqa) that I wouldn't mind leveling into dust. Bomb them until the sand glows and send those terrorists to burn in hell's everlasting fire.

think4yourself Not a safe space
12/28/16 12:33 am

Absolutely. They commit more human atrocities than any other group and civilized societies that believe in human rights need to pull that weed.

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PrinceOberyn Here I am Here I Remain
12/28/16 12:12 am

That would be a stupid way of going about it. By telling the world you are at war with them makes them feel legitimized as warriors and equalizes them by allowing them on to the field of battle.

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PrinceOberyn Here I am Here I Remain
12/28/16 12:15 am

Religious fanatics are validated when they are finally recognized by their adversary. We ought to just keep treating them as nothing more than a nuisance that we'll crush whenever we get around to it. Fuck them and let's not give them what they want.

4boot LaTrineodeur, MN
12/28/16 2:19 am

If they're dead, they can't feel or have opinions on anything...

ezh2o Texas Hill Country
12/28/16 7:51 am

Death is what they want . . . So yeah, give death to them.

PrinceOberyn Here I am Here I Remain
12/28/16 9:28 am

The more you kill the more they recruit. In they're bent minds were the foreign invader sent by Satan against their Jihad. It would never end if we just charged in like some brutish lout.

ezh2o Texas Hill Country
12/28/16 11:20 am

Fine, the US can support friendly Muslims to kill the radical rabid ISIS Muslims. Civilized countries must help with destroying this plague before it becomes overwhelming worldwide.

PrinceOberyn Here I am Here I Remain
12/28/16 11:34 am

Exactly. I do want to kill them all (the radical Islamists), but just not openly. Have some other goon do it for us.

brentwho Home
12/27/16 11:33 pm

The majority of Muslims are no more interested in war than the average Christian
The people you are concerned with are the Islamic version of the KKK, they just get more press here because they're foreign.
Demonization of an entire religion is counterproductive.

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geoag02 Dallas, TX
12/28/16 1:21 am

ISIS is also getting more press because they are actually killing people on a regular basis.

brentwho Home
12/28/16 12:48 pm

The point is not to demonize an entire religion based on a splinter group

Senate101 San Diego
12/27/16 10:02 pm

I agree with your points, just less radical.

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gluxford1 Arizona
12/27/16 10:03 pm

Yeah, I know I can be a bit extreme. 😂

FloridaPopulist Nationalist Right
12/27/16 9:36 pm

*Deus volt!* it autocorrected me lol

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MrAmerica Peaceful protestor
12/27/16 8:14 pm

I agree and I would say the same thing if it were Christians or Jews doing these terrorist attacks on us.

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gluxford1 Arizona
12/27/16 7:45 pm

For those of you who are wondering, I consider U.S. citizens who spread ISIS propaganda to recruit people for attacks against the west to be traitors. They should be stripped of their citizenship, tried in military tribunals as enemy combatants, and, if found guilty, sentenced to death and executed.

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RagingMystic covfefe
12/27/16 8:00 pm

You can't strip people of citizenship, period. And you can't try them as enemy combatants if they havent actually participated in combat, but there's treason and similar charges if it weren't for the whole first amendment thing. If you can lock up ISIS supporters I can lock up neo nazis

gluxford1 Arizona
12/27/16 8:02 pm

You can strip them of citizenship if you charge them with treason. If you are charged with treason, you are tried in a military tribunal. Under federal and military law, treason is still a capital offense, punishable by death.

lj74
12/27/16 10:14 pm

Contrary to Raging, you can lock up Americans for aiding the enemy.

think4yourself Not a safe space
12/28/16 12:36 am

They should be exported to the Muslim country of their choice and not let back in when they beg to come back.

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 7:28 am

No, if they aid the enemy, they should be executed by firing squad. Their families should be deported.

RagingMystic covfefe
12/28/16 10:04 am

Ah, I see we're moving closer and closer to North Korea now are we?

gluxford1 Arizona
12/28/16 10:07 am

No, but we are moving closer and closer to sanity.