Show of HandsShow of Hands

jfish82285 December 18th, 2016 11:24pm

Should we finally stop pretending that the founding fathers were infallible? Should we finally recognize that they could have made mistakes in the way they said things in this country should work?

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nekmor Round Rock TX
12/18/16 11:10 pm

Even the founding fathers admitted that they could not see nor prepare for all eventualities. For this reason they, in wisdom rarely present in todays career politicians, established a process to amend the law of the land as times, societal changes and circumstances deemed appropriate.

THAT is wisdom and that is why our society has survived and been the model that free people around the world have strived to follow.

knetzere Illinois
12/18/16 10:42 pm

Pretty sure that's why they gave us an avenue to make improvements

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/18/16 8:43 pm

They made up the idea of mob rule to direct desire away from mob rule.

goldz oh this world
12/18/16 10:08 pm

What do you mean?

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/18/16 10:58 pm

I am pretty sure that they didn't play "mind games.

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/19/16 4:10 am

The criticism of democracy as mob rule was made up by them to protect their power.

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/19/16 4:33 am

DW, that is just about the dumbest thing I've ever read on SOH. Most of those power hungry men experienced tragic losses, would have been executed by the Crown for treason, and none of them attempted to retain personal power. Nobody is perfect, but I would say they had very good intentions. They were intent on preserving unity and avoiding internecine warfare.

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/19/16 4:50 am

They were upset with the crown over taxation. The revolution was not about altruism or freedom. While the bill of rights was one of the results of the revolution, it was more of an afterthought. These men decided that they'd talk about slavery in 20 years, once most of them weren't around to lose profit from its abolition.

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/19/16 5:01 am

DW, you don't seem to know or respect our history. The British Crown was treating their colonists as second class citizens and they were smart enough to resist that. I believe that they were were better educated and culturally superior to the pedantic fools being graduated from our universities of today.

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/19/16 5:04 am

I respect all history, because I believe all history has value, even the negative parts of it. I know the British Crown sucked. But the colonists had an economic motive to revolt.

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/18/16 6:40 pm

I have seen no evidence of intelligence superior to theirs in anything that I see from celebrities, politicians, legal professionals, media or SOH. Liberals, before you decide to scrap something, make sure that you have a better replacement!

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/19/16 8:26 am

You make the claim that seven men from two centuries ago are the pinnacle of human intelligence?

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/19/16 11:52 am

Fishy, I am getting tired of you trying to put words in my mouth. I never met any of them, but most were Freemasons dedicated to democratic causes. Jefferson's personal library later became the library of the University of Virginia. Washington defeated the best army in the world, and Franklin invented too many things to mention. They did have an advantage over us, no reality TV, no safe spaces, and everyone had to be self sufficient in order to survive. I guess that I admire them much more than the arrogant, lazy, unappreciative spoiled brats of today. Maybe you would appreciate Jefferson more, if you knew that he is reputed to have had a remarkable collection of pornography.

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/19/16 12:00 pm

"I have seen no evidence of intelligence superior to theirs in anything that I've seen." Sure looks like you're saying no one is smarter than they. Those things would have been done by others had these men not been present. Oh, please, nice generalizations. Good to see some of us still haven't lost the ability to be completely blind to the goodness of the younger generations. I agree with Jefferson less than any of the founding fathers, for one thing. You really are a piece of something, you know that?

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/19/16 12:32 pm

Well Fishy, I am pretty sure that you not as smart as any one of them or their servants. Since I have learned nothing from you other than that you like baiting and criticizing strangers. Go to your safe space or cozy up to your soulmate, Michael Moore. As for me I think we have nothing else to discuss.

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/19/16 2:19 pm

Ah, yes, every intelligent thing the Father's said was written in a few blocks of text. I simply question what you say, and might I say, you fail at your own belief system. Of course! The typical conservative exit! A few half-hearted insults and an attempt to end the conversation because they know they can't win. I shouldn't be surprised.

ZaQ777 Pittsburgh
12/18/16 6:27 pm

Glad someone finally said it.

LibArtie SW Connecticut
12/18/16 6:07 pm

They also didn't have a crystal ball to consult with.

Squidboy Snarkapottamus
12/18/16 5:24 pm

We already have. Slavery is abolished, women and anyone over 18 can vote. We vote for our congress weasels.

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/18/16 5:38 pm

Some of those things THE some founding fathers and folks close to the founding fathers supported. Besides, a lot of those things had to do with the times rather than the judgment of the founding fathers.

RagingMystic covfefe
12/18/16 7:29 pm

None of the founding fathers supported women's suffrage

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/18/16 7:41 pm

Abigail Adams, the wife to John Adams, strongly encouraged him to treat women better legally than previous governments had. If I'm not mistaken, he did believe in more women's rights, but, evidently, not suffrage.

ronderman North Carolina
12/18/16 8:00 pm

Exactly what I came to say Squid.

They were wise enough to know their documents would need to be amended. They left is a way to do that.

RagingMystic covfefe
12/18/16 10:10 pm

Have you read john adams response? Its not good for women

ComradeJames nationalism
12/18/16 4:58 pm

They were racist, sexist aristocrats who often raped their slaves. They certainly weren't infallible.

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/18/16 6:42 pm

Got anything specific, or just trusting your intuition?

ComradeJames nationalism
12/18/16 6:47 pm

It's kind of common knowledge.

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/19/16 8:29 am

Harry, most, if not all of the owned slaves, you didn't see them jump to grant women any rights, and Thomas Jefferson (most famously) raped his slaves and she bore his children.

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
12/19/16 11:22 am

LandandLib, Jefferson actually freed Sally and wanted to marry her, but you know how shitty peer pressure can be. Jefferson actually tried setting slaves free in the Constitution, but they knew the southern colonies would not join the Union and it had to be Left out. Those were not easy times, life expectancy was short, most women died at childbirth. The majority of white immigrants indentured (became slaves) themselves to pay their travel fare.

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/19/16 11:40 am

First of all, he did not free her. He didn't free any of his slaves. I feel act, he had to sell all of them once he died to pay if his debts, I believe. Secondly, he never tried to abolish slavery in the Constitution. If anyone tried to do that, it was Benjamin Franklin. Also, indentured servitude is nowhere near the level of slavery, so you can dispel that notion right now.

Luftwaffe South of Heaven
12/18/16 4:43 pm

When it comes to guns they were absolutely correct

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/18/16 5:05 pm

Correction: one of them advised against political parties.

RagingMystic covfefe
12/18/16 7:28 pm

More than one, but one more famously

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
12/18/16 7:38 pm

Founding Fathers: Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and George Washington.

Founding Fathers who explicitly expressed opposition to political parties: George Washington and James Madison (to an extent).