Show of HandsShow of Hands

PamGH December 18th, 2016 5:08pm

β€œI do think we can do a lot of privatizations and private prisons,” Trump said on the campaign trail earlier this year. β€œIt seems to work a lot better.” The man is

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12/18/16 12:45 pm

We've seen how well that works out.

ctskapski x
12/18/16 11:13 am

When you hear about the idea of prison privatization, it sounds great. It's not until you see how it plays out in nearly all cases that you realize how badly we seem to fuck it up.
As a libertarian, I do wish we could get it right, because it's not a bad idea in and of itself, we just really suck at its execution so far, by making it for profit. The capitalist in me is sad that that's the issue.

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/18/16 1:46 pm

Isn't capitalism necessarily for profit?

ctskapski x
12/18/16 5:55 pm

Yes, and being for profit in and of itself is not bad.
However, while I do think privatized prisons could work, they haven't. So until a working model can be established, unfortunately, looks like a job private companies can't yet handle.
(They work as a business model, what I mean is working to fit the need they are intended to serve.)

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/18/16 8:15 pm

A private prison could not work even theoretically because being part of the capitalist system necessitates profit being the primary goal, over human rights.

ctskapski x
12/18/16 8:33 pm

Capital as an end goal is a tenant held only in the most extreme form of capitalism, I've never personally meant anyone who held the belief that capital should be valued over human rights, but I'm sure some may believe that.
If you're going to take an extreme form of an ideology and say the entire system is garbage because it's extreme form would fall in onto itself... Well, I don't know any that wouldn't. Communism very much included, as with any religion, and also nihilism.
Extremism in any form is bad, therefore I don't judge solely based on extreme forms.

ctskapski x
12/18/16 8:35 pm

I really can't think of any society that sees capital as an end goal, as capital is only a means by which to procure goods and services and to regulate the exchange of such things by assigning a specific value to them, rather than some exchange directly which can become unwieldy on large scales.

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/18/16 8:56 pm

"Extremism in any form is bad"

Even this is a general trend, it is still a fallacy.

Gaining capital is generally not the end goal. The end goal is usually to use the capital for consumer goods or to expand ones capital. Aside from the economic consequences of abused and oppressed workers which come from a capital driven economic system, there are social consequences as well. Relationships are monetized. Greed and disregard for others is encouraged. We as a society view the world less in terms of people who have inherent value into a world of commodities, focusing on what we can get from a relationship with another, instead of just helping out your neighbor because he's your neighbor. This is not a society I want to live in.

ctskapski x
12/18/16 9:16 pm

1. The goal as the procurement of other goods. This is consumerism, rather than basic capitalism. Capitalism allows consumerism, it is not the only variant. What I mean is in this situation be can be the product of a, but a does not necessarily equal b.
2. Workers abused coming from a capital driven system. This is, again, a thing that can happen in capitalist society, it is not inherant of it.
3. Relationships are monetized. This is not inherently so, as well. If this has been your experience, I'm sorry. You would be the only one I know of directly. Indirectly I know of status marriages, but this can happen in societies with any economic systems. People can always marry up. Ivana over in Moscow, back when it was Soviet could get quite the boost when marrying someone in the Kremlin. This point could also be a response to seeing people as commodities. It happens everywhere, is inherant to none, all you'd be picking on would be the particular commodity. If you are against consumerism,

ctskapski x
12/18/16 9:22 pm

Against the parts of society which allow things like status marriages, etc. Say that that is what you're against.
5. (Am I on 5?) Greed and disregard for others is encouraged. It isn't. I realize that is nothing but an assertion, but that's exactly what all of your arguments were. Self-promotion is encouraged, but it is encouraged for everyone. Nowhere does capitalism require it to be at the expense of others, and looking at the systems involved any rational person can see that more benefit comes when it's not at the expense of others.
6. This is not a society in which you want to live.
Capitalism allows freedom to choose for oneself. That IS a society in which I would like to live. I also think consumerism is silly, and (looking at it rationally) I agree that when people choose to be greedy, we are not helped. However, I respect the right to individual agency that a capital based system allows.

SupremeDolphin They.them
12/18/16 9:55 pm

I'm not gonna respond to every one of your responses for time's sake. But I want to address your last point. There are economic systems which provide complete liberty and freedom from hierarchy without being capital based. I, for example, am an anarchist but also anti-capitalist. Capitalism vs socialism has to do with the organization of labor. As an anti-capitalist, I believe labor should be organized democratically instead of according to the desires of the business heads. I believe that such a system of liberty and justice would turn out to much better handle the issues I raised. (I also want to clarify a relevant misconception. Anti-capitalism doesn't necessarily mean anti-market. I happen to be both, but you can have a socialist organization of labor within a market economy. If you're interested in market socialism, I would read about mutualism and it's founder Joseph Proudhon.)

firefly5 the verse
12/18/16 10:30 am

In the context of this statement, delusional. In the broader sense, aspiring thereto.