Show of Hands

Lol

Lol!

Um I live in America but I speak 5 languages if you include English! English isn't the only important language! For all we know , Chinese could become more more important than English in 50 years!

In the economy essentially.

Just chill! I'm Hispanic mix French! I think it would be a great idea! I know many are blaming all Hispanics because just a few of them are refusing to learn English! I do think it's important for them to adapt but I also think it's important for elementary children to learn a secondary language and it doesn't have to be Spanish! You teach them Japanese,Italian,German!

Im Scottish and only Scottish, speak Scots gael, english and some german only because of work.

I speak Spanish,French,Italian,Català,and English (In order of fluency and native languages)! Do you want your kids to have better job opportunities , then it might be helpful to teach them a secondary language!

Just chill! I'm Hispanic mix French! I think it would be a great idea! I know many are blaming all Hispanics because just a few of them are refusing to learn English! I do think it's important for them to adapt but I also think it's important for elementary children to learn a secondary language and it doesn't have to be Spanish! You teach them Japanese,Italian,German!

Amy, twenty one country's primary language is Spanish. Wherever I go, whenever I travel, most people speak two or three languages. I suggest you open your eyes 👀

Well said @Hole

As elementary children?

That's pretty outdated.. I mean I still write a check for rent, but if it wasn't for that I'd have no need for a checkbook at all. More and more places are refusing to even take checks

True story. I haven't used a personal check in a long time. And there are far more useful skills to learn. Applying for a job, filing taxes, basics of personal finance... not in elementary school, though. I like the foreign language there.

Glock, checks are sooooo 1990's. The only folks I see using them are elderly old ladies.

I refuse to do online banking. I don't trust people.

Everything you give someone a check you hand them your account and routing number.. I feel online banking is tons safer than that

Their lives

Plus, I don't have specifics but they're an easy Google search away, learning a second language is proven to help brain development in areas that control things like critical thinking

I was scrolling back to see your prior post that you are following up on with "Plus".
I don't see anything prior so I guess you are delirious or on something.
Why don't you put the pipe down?

I agree 100% you stupid American, lol.

Moldy, use the translator app on your iPhone or the free Babbel app which will help you learn another language👍🏻

Because it's easier to start learning languages at a younger age. You don't have to perfect English before you start learning another language, in fact studies show it's more productive for both languages if you study them at the same time

And the fact is there's still "English classes" in college, so at that point, no time to even learn Spanish. Need to do it early.

^very true on all points. Much easier to learn 2 as a kid and does not affect learning rate.

And, trying to pick up a new language in college as I did this past semester was an utter failure as an engineering major. No time and no patience, I ended up dropping the class within weeks

Little kids brains are actually set up for learning languages, and that ability diminishes as they get older, so the best time to learn a second language is at 2

I am guessing that you are very young

universe-review.ca/I10-88-connDev.png

The brain develops all kinds of neurons to everywhere briefly after birth, giving children unprecedented fluid intelligence. As they get older, there's a process known a synaptic pruning where it cuts unused neurons and reinforces the connections between more frequently used ones. This is why activities that were normally difficult become second nature, but it comes at the cost of speed and ability to absorb new information

A lot of ones that want to learn a second language realize they will be at an advantage in resumes and the job markets in the future if they are bi lingual.

Also being bilingual is very good for the brain and your mental abilities. I don't know all the details but look into it it's always a positive to know more than one language

If it comes down between you and another job applicant for the same job, being bi lingual is often the distinguishing factor between getting the job and being passed up

French>>>>>Spanish

For me, the most common translation issues I run into (also in Alaska) are Russian and sign language. That said, my son took Spanish in the public school system here in Alaska and uses it now that he lives in Florida.

When I lived in the Midwest and managed facilities in the US and Canada...I needed French (which I took in school in Michigan).

When I lived in Florida and Texas...by far...the need was Spanish.

I think learning a language at an early age - especially a romantic language - can really help you if you need to adapt to other languages later. Latin isn't a bad choice either!

Yeah, that's not how kids work. They can easily learn 2 or more languages concurrently, much faster than they would be able to later in life

Alright someone's gotta ask. Why especially Spanish?

I wasn't even going to address that, I'm sure it's the "they can speak English stop ramming Spanish down our throats" bs 🙄

But in Elementary you go to all your classes together, so every kid would learn spanish, (most likely) instead of learning other languages or getting to choose.

I assumed it would be similar to gym or music classes where kids go somewhere else. I don't really have a problem with people all learning the same language.

But it would just become another dreaded subject you have to sit through, like music for the kids who can't sing and art for the kids who can't draw.

That seems like it comes down to the quality of the teacher more than anything else. As one of the kids who can't draw I don't think we should get rid of art classes either

No we shouldn't get rid of art, but adding more classes you can't choose doesn't make sense.

It helps kids learn languages later in life and often helps with their English skills to. That'd be the reason. Kids don't get to choose any of the classes they take at that age and a lot of them will probably enjoy that more than their other classes

Possibly. But is it worth it because adding a class takes away time from other subjects.

Personally I think it is, but I could see why if you think differently

I can see why you think it should be added.

Why?

Because it's being forced down our throats.

Because it is the most relevant second language to know living in the United States. Working in medical field, I regularly have to find someone who speaks Spanish to help out and I live nowhere near a Spanish-speaking border.

Yeah, don't know where you live but everywhere I've lived Spanish is spoken regularly around me. It's the most relevant second language in the US

Yea! I don't want to learn something just because they think it's for the betterment of all!! Damn them forcing math & grammar down my throat too! :/ they should have taught us the metric system 30 years ago too. Get over it. It's a global world now and if you can't communicate the evolution of the population will just leave you behind.

The reason the US tends to only know one language is that most people only have a need for one language. Go to Europe and they complain about the British not knowing their language and expecting everyone else to know English.

That is extremely cool. The Cajun accent ks fun to listen to as well. It's musical.

It's my grandparent's first language. It's a shame that it's a dying language.

It's spelled oui by the way (if you weren't just being funny). I took about 5 years of French and it's one of the few words I remember.

Oui is 'yes' in French. There's a difference (although slight) between Cajun French and French. I still may have spelled it wrong but it's pronounced as "weh" and not "we".

Ok as I'm rereading this I can see how 'weh' can be mistakenly pronounced. The 'e' is pronounced as 'eh'. So it's w-eh. If that makes sense.

Mistakenly pronounced as 'we' that is.

I always thought the biggest differences were in pronunciations and not spellings! Learn something new everyday 😊 I figured it might be something like that, so that's why I tried to say it in the least know it all way because I didn't want it to come across like that 😂

Honestly I'm not sure if I'm spelling it correctly. I can't speak it fluently but can pick apart pieces of conversation. I mostly know the little I do know from my grandparents and the older people where I grew up. All of the older generations know the language well, it's just dying with the younger generations.

That's so sad! Schools should emphasis it more.

Welcome. From where?

?? Teachers' Unions don't hire administrators, and superintendents are elected. I agree that most of them are worthless, though.

Teachers union often has leverage in negotiating with the Board which many times allowed them to go out of control with spending and not defend teachers. Superintendents may be elected but my comment was about the amount of them there are. For example my town has 3 superintendents, a dozen+ administrators, there is 3 high schools, maybe 8 elementary schools, the teachers are making 70k and the bureaucrats easily 110+ , the school taxes are ridiculous. For reference NYC school district has 1 superintendent, which the schools may be terrible but they are a lot more fair especially to people without kids.

Superintendents aren't elected everywhere by the way.

So if a third grader doesn't want to learn math, the school should just say "okay you don't have to learn math"?

Yes.

I sense a troll…

I'm not a troll. Just more libertarian than most libertarians.

I hated math, but even I can see the value. That's pretty extreme, Doc!

I imagine you don't need a class to learn the basics, just an open mind and open eyes to the world around you.

Dunno about that. My 7-year-old is having a hard time just picking up addition and subtraction...and she's normal.

Maybe you're right. At the very least I don't think we need compulsion in order for people to learn this stuff.

Wouldn't that undermine the whole premise of a public education system...that everyone, regardless of background, is provided with the basic skills needed for functionality, advancement, and success?

I can't believe I'm arguing FOR math, but I think that's a pretty vital skill...everyone at least has to know how to count money and balance their checkbook.

Not teaching (and requiring) basic math skills to a child just because the child doesn't want to is negligent on the teacher's/parent's part.

Not everyone needs calculus, I'll give you, but everyone (who is capable) should be taught the skills to read and follow a recipe (fractions), balance their checkbook (add/subtract), understand a loan or credit terms (percentages/compounding)...and so many other things. Relying on immersion for basic math skills is the long way to the water cooler...and assumes they are "immersed" in the right environment, in the right pattern, to figure it out. That's an experiment we shouldn't risk (for them.)

An argument against teaching math is either one in ignorance or just being a troll.

Remove compulsion, you honestly think we would be stuck with a population that can't do basic math? I think you need to support that claim better.

I can't see any valid argument against having math in basic curriculum.

There are still people even in the US who are functionally illiterate. It's not that they can't learn...they were never forced to. They may be able to get by, but man, what a desolate existence! I think Math is about as basic as reading.

We have compulsion in education across the entire country, yet you're right - we have a relatively high illiteracy rate. Maybe we should try something different. Removing compulsion will make students more inclined to learn because school will no longer be a place of oppression and hierarchy.

I think the bottom line is parents need to be more involved.

How do you get parents more involved?

Do you have any ideas?

No, I don't. I stand by the idea that the most fundamental issue with our education system is compulsion. Students don't like compulsion. No one likes compulsion. People want freedom.

Do you think children are mature enough to make educational decisions?

I think in a society where they are not intentionally repressed and creativity is encouraged they would be very competent human beings.

Why do you think kids don't like going to school?

In your first comment it sounds like you're talking about education versus indoctrination. If that is the case then I perhaps agree.
I didn't like school. I didn't like being told what to do or given work to do. I just wanted to have fun.

Indoctrination is one aspect of why I don't think we should compulsion in education, but it's not my preferred argument. I believe compulsion causes students to dislike education. Students will learn better if they choose to be there. And they will choose to be there if there is no compulsion. They cannot choose to be there if they are compulsed.

How do you propose we educate children?

I believe education should be a service provided by ones community, but one should not be forced to attend.

A child should not be forced to go to school?

Exactly.

Then the child might not get an education.

Yes, he will. But he won't learn stuff that he doesn't find liberating and which doesn't permit him to fulfill his creative impulses.

So you're saying a child should be able to decide what their curriculum is composed of.

For Pete's sake, DoctorW, that is absurd. Children count on adults to raise them...to guide them through learning the basic skills they will need to survive. That includes math in every circumstance.

If they want to take piano, or take interpretive dance, well great. But not instead of math.

I agree with ak...if left to my own devices, I would've played with my friends and my Atari/C64 all day. It would've been summer vacation all year long. We're engineered to do our best work under compulsion (deadlines, etc.).

I really haven't accomplished jack in life since graduating from college, because I haven't been forced to...life came a little too easy for me. Kids especially need motivation, because learning is sometimes painful and hard even when you love it.

Ak- adults should guide kids, yes. But unless the kids are in physical danger, I think adults should refrain from compulsion. Lead, not drag.

Some children need to be dragged. How do you know a child knows what's best for him or her?

Dr: this makes me curious how old you are and if you have any children.

I don't have any kids. But I still believe that if you don't use compulsion against a kid, they're more likely to be a functioning member of society be treating others the way they were being treated.

I could not disagree more and I have children.

Neither of us have any experience raising kids in a society without compulsion.

I have more experience being a parent than you do. Children need structure. Children are not mature enough to make decisions that are right for their life. That is why they have parents to raise them.

I agree with ptellini...you have to learn the system before rebelling against it. There is, however, the Montessori educational approach that may be a fairly agreeable compromise, Doctor. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education

I do generally agree with the Montessori education. I'd like to see that expanded as the institutional educational system.

But, phalnx, we're discussing the education system, not parenting. I have plenty experience as a student in the education system.

I took a look and believe it has merit, however, it is up to the parents to decide what educational system the child should be in.
As long as the curriculum includes math, English, real science and real history.

Actually, Doc, parenting and the educational system are inseparable...kids need both integrated. Teachers alone can't educate a child, and parents alone shouldn't...unless they're trained as teachers.

I don't believe parents need to be trained as teachers did you teach the children. I know plenty of children that get homeschooled by parents that are not trained and they are excellent examples of why homeschooling is such a good thing.

I think I can speak further to this as I both attended Montessori (as a student) AND raised three children now all in college.

Montessori approach does work, but it still has expectations of competency for basic skills. The open learning style is more about removing barriers to explore the areas you enjoy /and or excel in, and using-while-learning approaches to problem solving. It does not (and shouldn't) allow for avoidance of reading, writing, or basic math...(or in my case, French!)

Thank you for sharing your experience. What I've suggested is that basic math and literacy won't be lost in a situation where students are given more liberty.

Those countries speak other languages because they have to use them. It's difficult to learn hear because there is no immersion.

*here

So we shouldn't offer additional languages?

Offering is different from adding it to the curriculum.

I think it could be done at a very rudimentary level if it was to be done.

It's coming at the expense of something else. Without immersion, you're going to need years, maybe decades of a language. That's time not spent on math, science, etc

And for what? So they can communicate without an app when they spend a summer abroad? It's a luxury.

I'd have to agree with you. The system is broken and needs the basics fixed first before it's mandated.

What about libertarianism?

What about it

Why should students be forced to learn anything in school?

Mandarin* you damn nazi

Agree I suppose but it's the second most useful language in this country

I was forced to take Spanish in middle school and I hated it. I chose french in high school and I love it. Forcing a child to learn something never turns out very good

In elementary school, I feel like most kids wouldn't have a strong preference. It would also be expensive to have both. I agree to give options later, but starting a 5 year old out with Spanish doesn't seem so bad.

I had some very basic Spanish in kindergarten. I think they must've cut funding or something because it stopped after that. We didn't have languages offered again until high school and I chose French.

And you've likely never used it in the real world. There's something to be said for letting kids choose but honestly taking French in high school is the equivalent to underwater basket weaving in college. You'll probably go and get a music degree or something dumb.

- Took two years of Spanish in high school and four years of French from Jr high on. I've used the French once in my life.

Personally, in my field, French is more valuable. I planned on minoring in it in college until I got to college and realized I really suck at learning languages. (I think it was due to some memory loss due to chemo my senior year of high school, but that's just speculation. I couldn't remember anything for months and my memory has never fully recovered.) That being said though, I planned on learning at least two more languages after perfecting my French. Spanish probably would've been one.

I think Chinese should be the default second option instead of French. I think it is just because it's a Romance language, easy to learn and a large amount of English words derive from it.

I've used it a lot actually. Also if you want to go into international business french is usually a better choice than Spanish.

I'll expand my saying my field uses French more by saying it is international business, so I definitely agree with Loxx 😂

French is the go to language for diplomats and businessmen due to its formality, clarity, and precision.

Laxx, what are you talking about. No it isn't. English is. More useful languages after that for what you cited are Chinese, Russian, and Arabic.

And no, French is not preferred to Spanish for international business. It simply isn't. Chinese, Russian, and Spanish are all above French. Even Portuguese is ranked more influential than French. You know why?

Because the only economies that speak French outside of France and mud hut African countries. There's precisely ZERO application for it outside of France.

Learn it if you want, again I took it for four years and only used it on my honeymoon some 15 years later. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it's more useful than it is.

More nations speak French than Spanish, also the population of French speaking african nations is booming and they're developing fairly quickly.

French: Belgium, Benin, Burkina, Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Canada, Central, African, Republic, Chad, Comoros, Côte, d'Ivoire, Democratic, Republic, of, the, Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial, Guinea, France, Guinea, Haiti, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Mali, Monaco, Niger, Republic, of, the, Congo, Rwanda, Senegal, Seychelles, Switzerland, Togo, and Vanuatu.

Spanish:Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Equatorial Guinea, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay, and Venezuela.

Sorry, you're just wrong if you think that today French is more prevalent than any of Spanish, Chinese, Russian, or Arabic

Well considering Africa's growing birth rate and increasing development French will likely surpass Spanish soon

Uh huh

According to www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=25 nations such as Niger, Mali, Burkina Faso, and Burundi (all french speaking nations) have a birth rate of over 40 many other french african nations have birthrates of over 30. While the highest birthrate in any Hispanic nation is Guatemala with a birthrate of 25. The birthrate of all Hispanic countries have also fallen within the past few decades.

Good talk.

You still haven't proven your claim that today, french is a better language to know for international business.

Plus this is America, where we speak English. It isn't necessary to make it a mandatory class.

Well at least now you speak 4 languages

"This is America, where we speak English"

No.

This is America, where we have no established language but the majority speak English. However, a good 17% of whom speak Spanish at home. We're a multicultural, multilingual empire.

May also recommend Duolingo as an alternative to classes if you'd like to learn again? It's pretty good and free (still, I hope, its been awhile since I used it).

I'm not really interested in it right now, but thanks for the recommendation.

I said it isn't really necessary given that the majority speaks English and that the programs aren't known to work.

Xem you need to go outside the state once

Does the gulf count?

Worked for me. I didn't use Duolingo until about a year ago, and that's for Italian. Classwork in Highschool taught me enseñó a leer y escribir en español, and college classwork has left me litteratorie scilicet vetere Latina lingua.

Classwork in a subject should not be discredited, but definitely requires better teaching than memorization, tbh.

No, Prince and rebel, we're English-speaking. The Austro-Hungarian empire's military spoke seven languages, and embarrassed themselves on the field. Ours speaks one. If people want to get ahead in this country, they speak it.

Classwork doesn't help if the teachers aren't competent
A very recurring theme where I live. People tend to get out Scott free because nobody cares though .

Some people seem to legitimately have a problem promoting English as the country's language. It's weird

Indeed

It's a recent phenomenon. It used to just be common sense that everyone agreed on...speaking one language is helpful. But like everything, it has become politicized and now many edgy teens see a republican promoting English as the official language (the horror) and they immediately think "this must be bad. I'm against this."

I think some people equate monolingualism with xenophobia. Not true at all. Foreign languages are like anything else...you learn them when/if you need them, which the majority of us don't. I have two uncles and a cousin who know Arabic because

they were stationed in the Middle-East and had to learn it. It's no big deal.

Exactly. Language's purpose is to communicate. If everyone speaks the same language, more communication, less misunderstanding, more harmony.

Precisely.

Indubitably!

I won't even LOOK at someone if they don't speak English!

What kind of education do you both have? Just curious.

I don't know about this racist but most of my education comes from Fox News an other right wing liberal media

Rofl