Show of HandsShow of Hands

MrMilkdud August 17th, 2016 2:21am

A religious group wants to build apartments next to a public university, on private property. The units will be exclusively for students at that university who are members of that religion. Non-student and non-religious applicants will be rejected.

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BigPhatPastor Jefferson Hills, PA
08/17/16 1:04 pm

As long as they pay for and own the property they can do what they want with it. If they are providing housing for people that share their belief or are a part of their religious system that' fine. It's the same as colleges providing housing only for people that go their school system.

augustin Oklahoma
08/17/16 12:09 pm

That's more than fine. If you think it's not fine, then you're welcome to open your own apartment complex with your own rules.

ethannelson61 Ft. Collins, CO
08/17/16 11:57 am

Actually, my church is planning a project for exactly this.

08/17/16 11:39 am

Is "black" a religion, now?

getupbaby South City
08/17/16 6:32 am

Pfft... Who voted no? As an atheist, if you can't handle the existence of other belief systems, you're just not going to be included in the conversation.

rons Thanks America
08/17/16 10:38 am

What if it was a religion that didn't allow blacks?

getupbaby South City
08/17/16 12:14 pm

You thinking about starting a religion?

08/17/16 5:13 am

Your property your choice.

ZaQ777 Pittsburgh
08/17/16 4:50 am

I'm fine with it. I'm somewhat concerned about the precedent it sets, but I think catering to a particular minority group is different from catering to everyone except a particular minority group.

08/17/16 4:55 am

I'm not sure what precedent you're worried about, but religious groups have been doing this for decades. So long, in fact, that an exemption for them was included in the fair housing act.
And everything has been fine.
So if some nasty precedent was going to sprout from this, it would have happened by now and you'd already be aware of it.

ZaQ777 Pittsburgh
08/17/16 5:04 am

I'm talking about the more general question of, "should business owners be allowed to turn people away for ideological reasons?" Gay wedding vs the baker is the classic example. Unsurprisingly, I don't support the baker in that case. I was saying that, despite siding with the religious organization in this instance, I wouldn't want a case like this to become a precedent in giving the business owner complete leeway over turning reasonable customers away. The reason being, I think these two cases are very different.

08/17/16 5:06 am

Give me an example of a "reasonable customer" who would be turned away because of this exemption?

08/17/16 5:11 am

And most people agree that business should have the right to refuse customers based on ideological reasons, as evidenced by all the nearly unanimous polls where everyone agreed that Jewish bakers should be able to refuse Nazis, black bakers should be able to refuse KKK members, and gay bakers should be able to refuse homophobes.
The only problem and dangerous precedent comes from the fact that liberals are incapable of respecting ideologies they fundamentally disagree with, and will refuse this same right when they don't agree with the ideology.

ZaQ777 Pittsburgh
08/17/16 5:19 am

I'm not talking about any exemption. But having looked it up, I'm fine with it. It's perfectly in line with the point I'm trying to make. And yeah, hypocrite exists, on both sides, in fact. I wouldn't side with that position in those cases, however.

Think Lovin Life
08/17/16 11:25 pm

ZaQ ... feeble attempt to create a moral equivalence for the hypocrisy of the left fails.

Liberty 4,032,064
08/17/16 4:14 am

"Someone is building something on their own property."

Sounds like it's none of anyone else's business or concern.

kywrite augusta, ga
08/17/16 3:12 am

It's their business, not mine. We do not have the right to use other people's things if they don't want us to because WE DIDN'T BUILD THAT.

ShawPPM1214 Washington
08/17/16 1:30 am

I see nothing wrong with it.

08/17/16 12:33 am

They're probably not going to get a lot of business, which is fine. Not hard to take your business elsewhere.

08/17/16 4:57 am

That's just your anti-religious bias.
Religious groups have been doing this for decades, and these facilities usually have a waiting list.
The one that inspired this poll had a waiting list before the foundation was set.

theNobamist Silicon Valley
08/16/16 11:52 pm

That's illegal, per the Fair Housing Act. It would be like not selling to someone because of their skin color.

kywrite augusta, ga
08/17/16 3:13 am

Fair Housing Act is not fair.

EarlyBird Portland
08/17/16 4:09 am

Nob, there's an exemption for religious organizations in the Federal Fair Housing act.

08/17/16 4:49 am

I posted a link for this exemption below.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
08/16/16 11:23 pm

...and somebody obviously sees a problem with that because they don't properly understand the First Amendment and Separation of Church and State, right?

GingerFascist Ireland
08/16/16 8:44 pm

I have no problem with that as long as it is not harming anyone else.

EarlyBird Portland
08/16/16 8:37 pm

I support. 👍

swervin Maryland
08/16/16 8:25 pm

That's fine. It's on private property, so do whatever you want on it. If you only want to let black midgets who are scared of ghosts live there, that's your choice.

susanr Colorado
08/16/16 7:58 pm

It's perfectly legal if it's non-profit, as an exemption for religious organizations to the Fair Housing Act. As long as membership in the religion isn't restricted based on the usual things people aren't supposed to be discriminated against for housing.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky, but I'm getting a little tired of convoluted laws. Can't we all just get along?

No. No, we can't.

08/16/16 8:00 pm

What's convoluted about a religious exemption?

susanr Colorado
08/16/16 8:11 pm

It's just all the "if this, then that..." picky stuff; not anything about religious exemptions in particular. I'm just having snit fits about what seem to be excessive *laws* or excessively *complex* laws in general. Not just this instance; not just anti-discrimination laws. I have no idea why; it's not that I don't approve of protecting rights of minorities.

There's another exemption for a person who rents out apartments in a home they own *and* live in... if it's 4 or fewer apartments. Not 5. Has to be 4 or fewer. Why, if it's your home.

I just read some very convoluted stuff about Medicare laws, about coverage if you're in a hospital for over 24 hours "under observation" - even 6 days, in one example - but don't get formally admitted, and then end up in a nursing home. You can get hit with a *huge* bill, whereas if you had been admitted to the hospital, most of the nursing home charge would have been covered.

This stuff is making me crazy because it just seems nuts.


08/16/16 8:15 pm

If I didn't know you better I'd think you were becoming a conservative.

I think you're right, though. I think the mark of a bad law is that it requires pages and pages of supplementary clarifications and exclusions to deal with all the unintended consequences.

GrandmaALiCE Rocky Mtns aerial view
08/16/16 8:18 pm

"If I didn't know you better I'd think you were becoming a conservative."


susanr Colorado
08/16/16 8:20 pm

I almost made that comment myself, that I thought I might be turning into a conservative.

I thought you might laugh at me, though.

Better keep an eye on me. Who knows. We may have to amend that old chestnut about "If a man isn't a liberal by the time he's 20..." and "If a man isn't a conservative by the time he's 40..." to "If a woman isn't a conservative by the time she's 70..."

Twenty-four days to go. Feel free to work on me.

GrandmaALiCE Rocky Mtns aerial view
08/16/16 8:27 pm

I've become more conservative, over the last several years. A lot of the change has been due to the influence of my son-in-law's thinking. Another factor is the horrible record of liberals, regarding Israel.

08/16/16 8:30 pm

Conservative son-in-laws must have a knack for converting their in-laws. My in-laws were life long democrats when we met about 20 years ago. Now they're "never Hillary" republicans who are struggling with voting for Trump because they don't think he's a real conservative.

susanr Colorado
08/16/16 8:35 pm

Honestly, my first reaction when I read the poll was "Well, it's private property, so they can do whatever they want." And I pushed the "That's fine" button.

Then I thought... What the hell am I saying? I don't sound like me. But it felt right. I know there are exemptions, and I'm usually fine with them, so I went hunting, and voila. But then I got mad at all the bureaucratic stuff. And I was fresh from reading the Medicare stuff and being mad about that.

susanr Colorado
08/16/16 8:38 pm

Who knows what the hell Trump is. I think he's just a Trumpist. I really hope he isn't just a Clinton plant. That's a depressing thought. Besides, it would mean cowboy was right, and we'd never hear the end of it.

My son-in-law is, if anything, more liberal than I am, so there's no hope there.

susanr Colorado
08/16/16 8:43 pm

GA, somehow this all reminds me that I haven't gotten back to you with my personal story of unethical medical experiment done at the University of Cincinnati. I haven't forgotten; I just haven't gotten around to it yet. There was more in the gene book today about eugenics in the US, stuff that somehow I had managed to miss in all my genetics education, which is also taking me in some uncharted areas in my thinking.

gameplayer2014 Constipated Clefable
08/16/16 9:07 pm

Coding programs is exactly the same way as this. If this then that or that etc. it shouldn't be that hard. They make these laws for people like Steven hawking can understand but the average dumb fuck like me can't. We'd have a better country if all the laws were dumbed down.

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
08/16/16 7:52 pm

As long as it's on private property. It's rather dim, however, as they really aren't trying to grow the Church (big C) if they turn away anyone who isn't exactly like they are.

08/16/16 7:55 pm

In the real world events that inspired this poll, the Catholic Church did open the dorm to all religious students.

08/16/16 7:56 pm

The only requirement is that the student practices a religion and agrees to the behavioral code.

jfish82285 Tennessean in Colorado
08/16/16 8:05 pm

That's what I would expect from a private club such as that. Are there any specifics on what religion in particular you have to practice? Does it have to be a sect of Christianity? An Abrahamic religion? Would LaVeyan Satanism qualify? I hope you don't mind the questions. I don't expect you to know the answers to them anyway.

08/16/16 8:09 pm

Right now it's open to any religion. I imagine a satanist would be rejected, and rightly so.

corino Utah
08/16/16 7:38 pm

Violation of the fair housing act.

corino Utah
08/16/16 7:39 pm

You can certainly have an honor code or some such.

08/16/16 7:39 pm


42 U.S. Code § 3607 - Religious organization or private club exemption

08/16/16 7:42 pm

"Nothing in this subchapter shall prohibit a religious organization, association, or society, or any nonprofit institution or organization operated, supervised or controlled by or in conjunction with a religious organization, association, or society, from limiting the sale, rental or occupancy of dwellings which it owns or operates for other than a commercial purpose to persons of the same religion, or from giving preference to such persons, unless membership in such religion is restricted on account of race, color, or national origin. Nor shall anything in this subchapter prohibit a private club not in fact open to the public, which as an incident to its primary purpose or purposes provides lodgings which it owns or operates for other than a commercial purpose, from limiting the rental or occupancy of such lodgings to its members or from giving preference to its members."

biker4life Arizona
08/16/16 7:35 pm

It's private property.

political Georgia
08/16/16 7:30 pm

"On private property"

It's fine.

08/16/16 7:46 pm

The Catholic Church just opened a new dorm for students at a public university nearby- except it's open to people of all faiths who want to have a more actively religious college experience. Apparently liberal groups are going to protest because they don't think it should be legal.

political Georgia
08/16/16 8:17 pm

Christians in the area should organize to sing and preach the wonderful word of God during the protests.

08/16/16 8:19 pm

Basically what corino tried to claim one post up, GMA.

susanr Colorado
08/16/16 9:17 pm

Someone should introduce them to the Exemptions. That shouldn't take long.