Show of HandsShow of Hands

goldz August 14th, 2016 5:36pm

"Full socialism is a better option than most of these half-baked measures between capitalism and socialism."

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LeftLibertarian The Age of Outrage
08/14/16 5:24 pm

Capitalism and socialism cannot be mixed, what people are thinking are is capitalism with public programs. Socialists want a collective sector, not a public sector. Full socialism is not necessarily communism, just because production is collectivized doesn't mean there's no currency or that the means of production are held in common.

Krystina Let Freedom Reign
08/14/16 3:08 pm

Anyone who agrees with this should check out the dream that is socialist Venezuela. There are a ton of articles on it. Here's one: www.nationalreview.com/article/435522/socialism-venezuela-hugo-chavez-nicolas-maduro-bernie-sanders-millennials

LeftLibertarian The Age of Outrage
08/14/16 5:28 pm

The means of production aren't collectivized there, they are nationalized in some cases and still controlled privately in others. Venezuela is in no sense full socialism.

Luftwaffe South of Heaven
08/14/16 11:48 am

I'd rather have no capitalism or socialism.

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 10:49 am

Strongly disagree. Socialism is dangerous to society and economies. End of story.

Reply
TheSocialist INTJ
08/14/16 10:46 am

I've been right-wing-ified so I can no longer agree. My new coordinates are (-5, 0).

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 10:48 am

It's quite cute how people thing -5 is right wing on the political spectrum. Trust me. Ur still a liberal.

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 10:54 am

You became a capitalist? That's actually a major improvement!

TheSocialist INTJ
08/14/16 10:56 am

Well I realized it would benefit me. And I realized that emotions, ethics, and morality are for the weak. I am completely materialist.

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 11:00 am

I am happy logic has finally came to you.

TheSocialist INTJ
08/14/16 11:01 am

Nothing new, I have been drifting right.

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 11:16 am

As you get older and have a bit of experience paying taxes, you'll know why us capitalists hate socialism.

TheSocialist INTJ
08/14/16 11:21 am

Nothing to do with taxes. I still want my roads.

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 11:25 am

So do capitalists. Roads are obviously essential to 21st century society. Capitalists are only against paying high taxes when the government is spending it on something stupid they don't support

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 10:43 am

Full socialism is better than a lot of things.

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GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 10:42 am

Full Socialism is Communism, so no. You need a mix of Capitalism and Socialism.

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ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 10:43 am

Communism is a specific form of socialism.

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 10:49 am

You're incorrect. That's a common misconception spread by Lenin and the Bolsheviks, but it's not historically accurate.

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 10:52 am

Hammer, what is Pure Socialism then if it's not Communism? Communism is the stateless, classless, moneyless people's utopian dream of pure socialism? Isn't it?

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 10:53 am

Or better yet, ginger, a free market where people can be free to invest and spend their money where they want. Free market capitalism with slight regulation (to stop monopolies) Is how nations will thrive economically.

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 10:55 am

If I'm not mistaken, socialism is a general term referring to the common ownership of the means of production. Ancom, Marxism, mutualism, collectivism, M/L, etc. are all forms of socialism (I think).

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 10:58 am

Brandon, while also creating two world, rich and everyone else. Free Market Capitalism inheritly creates a world of the rich elite and the poor majority. Capitalism requires regulation and government oversight to function benefitly for not only the economy but the nations people.

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 10:59 am

Hammer, so what? You see Communism as separate from Socialism? How?

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 11:01 am

Free markets breed monopolies, inequality, hierarchy, class struggle, and inevitably revolution. States breed authority, oppression, dominance, and inevitably revolution. It's a lost caused, really. Anarchy ✌️

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 11:02 am

Socialism is a general term referring to the public ownership of the means of production. Communism is more specific, I think. Am I getting this right, @DoctorWasdarb ?

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 11:03 am

But I added slight government control to break up monopolies.

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 11:09 am

Hammer, I know that. But isn't Communism the most radical form of Socialism? In which capitalism is gone, the people now rule without state, class of money to harm the worker utopia?

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 11:10 am

Brandon, and I'm saying you need more then just slight government. Just stopping monopolies isn't enough.

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 11:14 am

Without monopolies, capitalism is great. If poor getting poorer can be fixed by creating jobs and encouraging those who can't get a job to start at a minimum wage and work up the chain.

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 11:20 am

Wanna tell that to the American Middle Class? Oh wait, there is none. It's thinking like that, that had destroyed the American Middle Class. More money needs to be coming down from the rich, and government needs more of a say in business. The goal of wealth should not be to live this materialistic luxurious life, what's the point? Your gonna lose it all when you die. It should be to better your people, and future generations to come. The massive wealth gaps in America are only making the rich man richer and the poor man poorer.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/14/16 11:47 am

I've been summoned.

Socialism: an economic system where the means of production are owned and managed by the workers at a specific workplace, or by the community in general.

Communism: an economic and political system where there is no state and no currency, where the means of production are owned by the community, and the products of such productions are distributed democratically.

Classical Marxism is a specific form of communism, where the workers are to take over the state and establish a new state, known as the dictatorship of the proletariat. The purpose of this state is to fight against capitalist insurgencies. Leninists and Marxist-Leninists (stalinists), Maoists all believe the means of production should be owned by the state, so not truly socialist, although the term has been misapplied to these failed states. The other primary form of communism is anarcho-communism, essentially the same as classical Marxism, but skips the dictatorship of the proletariat phase.

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 12:01 pm

Trust me I know that those leaders were not Communist. Marx and Engles were really the only true Communists. But, with that said. So is Communism not Socialism then? I've always thought of it as extreme Socialism. The final end product if Socialism was ever to make it that far.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/14/16 12:20 pm

Communism is a type of socialism. Also note that communism is both a political and economic ideology, while socialism is just an economic ideology.

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 12:24 pm

Marx and Engels weren't the only true communists. Kropotkin, Goldman, Orwell (I think), Parsons, Rocker, etc. were also commies. Is Chomsky a commie?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/14/16 12:27 pm

Chomsky calls himself an anarcho-syndicalist, but the end goal is still the same, so yes.

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 12:28 pm

Doc, so if Communism is not the most radical form of Socialism what is? I will perfectly admit Fascism has an radical side, Fascism's radical is National Socialism. So what is Socialism's radical of its not Communism?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/14/16 12:32 pm

Any true leftist who wants a revolution (including anarchists) is considered a radical. Right wingers (including fascists) who want a revolution are called extremists. The farthest left economic system is a command economy, which is what communism has. But authoritarian leftists who also want a command economy are just as far left, just not communists.

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 1:00 pm

What do you call an economy in which the means of production are owned entirely by the state? It's not socialism (because there isn't common ownership) and it's not capitalism (since it's a command economy). What is it?

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 1:04 pm

Doc, wait but a command economy requires a state. Communism is stateless, classless and moneyless.

GingerFascist Ireland
08/14/16 1:06 pm

Hammer, I'd call that a Command Economy. Like North Korea. A broad economic Socialism in which the state governs industry. What would you call it?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/14/16 1:08 pm

That's a hard question to answer, because historically state owned economies only exist from a perversion of socialism. There isn't really a good name for them. Usually I just sacrifice the word and let them be called socialist or communist too because it's a waste of time to argue that all the time. Other times I call it state socialism, or really state capitalism because the state is the owner of the property, provides services to the people (often with a price), and provides the workers with their salaries. And note that not all state owned economies are command economies.

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/14/16 1:10 pm

A command economy just means that resources are distributed according to need rather than through markets. The distributor can be the state, or it can be entirely democratic, like in anarcho-communism.

ComradeJames nationalism
08/14/16 1:15 pm

Can you give an example of a state-owned market economy? How would that even work?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/14/16 1:53 pm

You basically just replace capitalist employers with the state and voila the state determines the price of goods, the salaries of workers, all that. And I just discussed politics in French so I don't really know how to respond right now.

Brandon2018 Stocks Are Overvalued
08/14/16 2:07 pm

You love being dictated by government, don't you.

LeftLibertarian The Age of Outrage
08/14/16 5:26 pm

Brandon I hope you aren't referring to Doctor or H&S, they're both anarchists.