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Cole12 August 12th, 2016 10:11pm

One issue I disagree with Hillary on is paid family leave. Compared to basic income, universal healthcare, etc., this doesn't seem like a good use of money. Do people who have sex sans protection really deserve a vacation more than the rest of us?

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FemmeAdamWest in the Tardis library
08/13/16 10:45 am

It's cute that you think it's a vacation.

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buffaloman Team Trump
08/12/16 9:46 pm

It's not a vacation. If you'd ever had kids, and taken care of them, you'd know.

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swervin Maryland
08/12/16 5:59 pm

Surprise surprise. Something that doesn't apply to you and you aren't in favor of it...

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dfish at home
08/12/16 5:44 pm

I'm not for paid parental leave either but I'd hardly call vaginal healing after passing a softball sized head and sleepless nights of breastfeeding a "vacation"

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phen nebraska
08/12/16 5:58 pm

My wife is a stay at home mom. Has been since our first son was born. I was lucky enough to have an understanding job abd planned my vacation around the birth of all our kids. That way I could spend time with her, or older kids and or new baby.

dfish at home
08/12/16 6:17 pm

That's a good husband

voc I am...what I am
08/12/16 4:31 pm

Lol! Vacation! You're funny!

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spicysteve M14D SBS
08/12/16 4:06 pm

Not a vacation.

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rons WOKE is sick
08/12/16 3:44 pm

Not the perfect equal society we socialist desire. Have the baby in work at lunch time.

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susanr Colorado
08/12/16 3:29 pm

It's not about having sex without protection; it's about choosing to raise a family. And if you think it's a "vacation" I suspect you've never tried to cope with welcoming and incorporating a newborn into family life. It may be a joyous event but it it distinctly not a vacation.

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dfish at home
08/12/16 5:45 pm

He's a kid. He's got a lot to learn

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
08/12/16 5:50 pm

This -

additionally some research seems to indicate that the first few weeks of "laying in" are important for bonding and for milk production which is beneficial to the ultimate health of the child.

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 3:15 pm

I want everyone to be free from work, not just people who are too horny to go to a drugstore before fucking. If the US had a basic income system, a woman could take off for a few months after popping out her crotchfruit AND I could go backpacking in Asia. Basic income is fair; paid family leave is not.

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Malekithe Hades
08/12/16 3:17 pm

Everyone should be paid $100K and not have to work.

susanr Colorado
08/12/16 3:31 pm

That's one of the more disgusting, insulting, trivializing characterizations of having children that I've ever seen.

You may not think much of other people having children, intentionally or not, but I don't see any reason to totally disrespect them for doing so, in that way.

Malekithe Hades
08/12/16 3:33 pm

I presume you mean Cole

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 3:35 pm

Many pregnancies are intentional, so I'm making a joke. However, my anger is real. Democrats are usually opposed to privilege, but unfortunately, in this situation, Hillary seems to want to strengthen the inequality between parents and non-parents.

shoeless Texas
08/12/16 3:37 pm

Malekithe - if everyone made $100k, then the poverty line would be $100k. If it's equal income for all, then no one progresses, people lose motivation and that is the minimum wage so all prices would have been adjusted to account for it. If a company pays that wage across the board, costs for products and services must go up to maintain viability for the company. Otherwise, they close doors or layoff most of the employees requiring far more work by those left.

susanr Colorado
08/12/16 3:38 pm

It's not funny. AT ALL. And I can see how it could be seen as privilege, but I don't see it that way. Set that aside, though; I'm objecting to the characterization of people here and not referring to the policy much at all.

And he's, malekithe, I was addressing Cole.

susanr Colorado
08/12/16 3:42 pm

*yes, not he's... damned autocorrect and proofreading failure

Malekithe Hades
08/12/16 3:54 pm

Shoeless, i was being facetious

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 4:36 pm

What interests me is that on SOH (and the web as a whole), the childfree are routinely called "selfish" and other awful things. Childfree women, in particular, are disliked and ridiculed in America - and, really, everywhere.

On the other hand, when someone teases parents, everyone is offended.

The new leader of the Republican party and his millions of supporters deride Muslims all the time; the second anybody pokes fun at Christians, it's the end of the world! In much the same way, it's acceptable to make fun of the childfree, but completely unacceptable to make fun of parents. This is what privilege looks like.

But there's more. It's not just how these different groups are treated by society - it's the tax code. Parents get a huge tax break just for having children! And that's nuts. At least Muslims and Christians are considered equal by the government (well, that is unless Trump gets elected).

susanr Colorado
08/12/16 4:43 pm

None of those shaming or teasing positions are right. None of them. People who want to have children should have them. People who don't shouldn't, and shouldn't be guilted into having them. People who don't plan to have them but find themselves pregnant should make the best choices for themselves. Not everyone participates in the guilting and shaming, though, so please don't lump everyone, or any group, into any part of that.

The tax and employment benefits issues are different issues, and there is more than one *legitimate* side to them, unconnected to the guilting and shaming.

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 4:56 pm

The people who do participate in the guilting and shaming are often never even chastised, though. If I keep making that drugstore remark, will I be constantly scolded? I think so, and this reflects that while many disapprove of mocking both parents and non-parents, it's more acceptable to mock the latter than the former.

I don't think the child tax credit has any legitimacy. John and Tim are single and both make $50k/year. John lives a simple lifestyle and spends $25k/year, while Tim enjoys going on nice vacations and has expenses of $40k/year. Should John pay more in taxes just because he spends less money? No. So, although parents do typically have higher expenses than non-parents, they shouldn't get a tax break just for that reason. It's a choice to have children and incur the related expenses, just like it's a choice for Tim to go on luxurious trips.

Axl752 NY
08/12/16 5:11 pm

Im a 4 year SOH veteran and I've never seen people shaming others on SOH for being child free.

susanr Colorado
08/12/16 5:21 pm

Honestly Cole it almost the "crotchfruit" comment, implying that a baby is essentially a worthless piece of shit that set me off, but to some extent also the implication that the mother at least, if not the couple, are brainless people druges.

I get annoyed by lots of senseless and rude things that people say to each other here, but "crotchfruit" really is one of the most offensive things I've seen as far as implications about the worth of human life is concerned.

susanr Colorado
08/12/16 5:21 pm

*it was almost entirely the...

dfish at home
08/12/16 5:57 pm

Meh I want to go backpacking in Asia on someone else's dime. Life's not fair Cole. Suck it up and stop whining

OhTheIrony Learning from you
08/12/16 5:58 pm

Cole, your position on this issue solely addresses incentives and does not consider the resultant effects of the various policy proposals.

Look at how you view the situation.

For you, it's all about the parents. According to you, the parents made a stupid decision and they should not be rewarded for it.

But the lives of the parents are not the only ones at stake here.

There are children, who, for now fault of their own, were born into the homes of these parents.

The government can choose to either ignore the needs of these children and harshly punish the parent's for having children, or it can mandate paid family leave to allow these parents to give ample time and attention to raise their children to adulthood.

Studies have shown that the early years of childhood are crucial to development, especially in providing the sense of touch.

The plight of unmarried women is a real social issue, but do not let it cloud your judgement about what's right for kids in this country.

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 6:03 pm

OTI, that's why I support universal basic income. With UBI, parents can take off from work for a few months to care for their newborn children AND non-parents can have free time too.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
08/12/16 6:03 pm

Cole - you are so far off-base with your characterizations that your rant would be almost comical if it weren't so ugly. "crotch-fruit"?? WTF man? or should I say, BOY? That sort of comment is more suited to an angry, ill-informed teenager than a grown up. I also find it fascinating that you limit your derogatory characterization to the females, as if we are reproducing asexually. Last time I checked: males participated and not all children are undesired, accidental, or tax write-offs.

Also, I call people on crap about the childless, atheists, muslims, Christians, parents, anyone. I find those sorts of negative generalizations repugnant, ignorant, and bigoted. Always have. If you are not seeing repudiations of individuals who make such statements then you are not paying attention - you are also not seeing all the comments.

Dial back in the vitriol, Cole.

shoeless Texas
08/12/16 6:05 pm

Malekithe - we really need a sarcasm font on here. Hard to tell who is serious and who's not.

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 6:11 pm

If it seems like I'm mocking mothers more than fathers, I apologize. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not sexist.

Now to the rest of your comment. You may treat everyone equally, but not everyone is like you. Christians, Muslims, atheists, white people, black people, parents, non-parents, etc. are all treated differently in America, and that's a problem. You call me "boy" (very offensive) for making a joke; Donald Trump and his supporters deride Muslims seriously and they may get their way come November. Privilege is a real thing, and I think you know that.

dfish at home
08/12/16 6:29 pm

"We should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it." -Lincoln
And then there's Cole, who is offended by being called "boy"

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
08/12/16 6:44 pm

Apology accepted - and I did not think you were sexist, just your choice of words was highly suspect and imo immature.

It is ok to be angry, I am mightily annoyed, myself. I have not contributed much to the discussions on privilege, but you are correct in surmising that I am aware it exists.
Do not get me started on Trump or how troubling his popularity is to me.

However, your poll was specifically about family leave and I can see that many people have offered up thoughtful responses to which I have nothing more to add 8).

Golansy Arizona
08/13/16 12:16 pm

@FacePalm I agree with all your statements and such about your outrage against Cole and whatnot, but I heavily disagree with your generalization that teenagers are immature and I'll-informed and that they are lesser than "grown ups". It is this exact mentality that is the reason why there is a huge disconnect between millennials and older people, but I urge you to remember that we will be the majority of the voters in the future. I say this because as of right now, social security is the third rail of American politics, but it's very likely that we will not get the opportunity to use social security when we reach that age. So just keep in mind, that when we become the majority of voters what's to stop us from getting back at you for this disconnect by getting rid of social security? After all, what's in it for us? It's not like we'll get to use it anyways. So think about that the next time you disregard teenagers for being ill-informed, immature, and "lesser" than grown ups.

dfish at home
08/13/16 12:56 pm

Pointless threats. One person bad mouthing teens OR holding their tongue isn't gonna make a difference

Golansy Arizona
08/13/16 1:13 pm

That is the same logic that causes the low voter turnout ("my vote won't matter anyways"). So no, you're wrong because every person's opinions and the way everyone acts does matter.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
08/13/16 3:50 pm

I actually was not generalizing about teenagers. I specifically said "Angry, immature teenager" I know plenty of teens who would never think, much less say something like that.

It might interest you to know that I actually think the voting age should be reduced to 16.
Maybe younger with some sort of exam. (I know that seems arbitrary, but unfortunately the younger one is the more one has to "prove" capability to reason with maturity)

I like it when younger people are interested, involved, and informed. This is their country too, and they have more time left to live in it than older generations.

8)

Golansy Arizona
08/13/16 3:53 pm

Alright, sorry then and thanks for clarifying. The way you said it did sound like you were implying a generalization though. It's nice to know as well that there are people who support lowering the voting age.

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 3:15 pm

"Sans" means "without."

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/12/16 3:19 pm

It's French. On the bus to Paris :)

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/12/16 3:22 pm

I have to pee, but the bus doesn't arrive for another 8 hours 😬

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 3:28 pm

Il n'y a pas une salle de bains dans le bus?

DoctorWasdarb Marxist Leninist Maoist
08/12/16 3:31 pm

Je crois pas. Btw, if you say pas UNE salle de bain, it means "there isn't one bathroom," emphasizing there only being one. You can say pas DE salle de bain to mean "there isn't a bathroom." I don't know if you meant to emphasize the oneness of the bathroom, but just some fun facts.

Cole12 ...
08/12/16 3:33 pm

My French is getting a little rusty, haha.

skinner Jersey City
08/12/16 3:14 pm

I don't agree with forcing employers to allow paid family leave, but I also don't agree with your assessment that pregnant women don't deserve a break.

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