Are you ok with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer?
I don't mind the rich getting richer, legally. I do mind the poor getting poorer.
yes, i think this is a popular mindset.
Yes it's an issue but to "fix" it by taking from the rich and giving to the poor won't fix it.
it can seem like the easiest solution, but if course it isn't. :-) What do you think might be one or two plausible solutions we can work toward?
Parenting skills followed by education.
How exactly do you get poorer? Hard to have less than nothing.
Well that depends are the poor making smart decisions to move up?
And are the rich getting by with unethical illegal acts? If both of those are no then hell yeah. I'm fine with it
So if both no, then it's not ok?Just making sure .
It's usually indicative of a larger economic problem, so it is certainly something to show concern about. But most people's proposed solutions just try to fix the symptoms and not the underlying cause.
What are some causes, and how might you propose we fix them?
That is not true
Eventually they'll pull out the guillotines. That'll even things out.
We've seen this movie before.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
If the poor don't want to work, not even if it's a job at McDonalds, they shouldn't be able to take my hard earned money.
I say instead of having the poor rely on government, encourage them to get a job of any sort to serve the country.
But then business complains about unfair competition.
Branson, are you under the impression that the majority of poor people are so by choice?
No, who would chose to be poor.
Then there's a bit of a disconnect when you mention not wanting to work, isn't there?
I'm saying the majority of poor people aren't trying hard enough. The American dream is still alive in everyone. It's just more of a challenge to people that grew up in the slums.
Rich getting richer, not a problem, in fact I think it's great when someone is getting richer no matter who they are. Poor getting poorer, if it's relative to the rich getting richer, it's not in itself a problem, I don't suffer from envy. If they are getting poorer in absolute terms it's of course bad. We need to change the governments function from protecting themselves and their rich friends and let us all take part in the wealth being created. Removing all the constraints they have put in place will in itself be a huge boost for all of us.
Sounds very Libertarian. Remove government from the equation and create income opportunity equality. Want to work hard? We have a job that pays fairly for you! Want to sit on you butt? You no longer get free money for not contributing, but you have the option to make that choice and must live with the consequences.
Yes that's right where I am 👍
Tom, on an individual level, how do you propose we help to facilitate changing the government function/removing the constraints (outside of the voting booth)?
I'm not so worried about that as I am that the economy remain robust. A robust economy ensures everyone gets richer. We obviously don't have that right now.
½ of the question is a problem. We should be critically concerned in stopping the worsening of poverty. It will never be completely wiped out, but we can keep the poor from getting poorer. As for the rich...it's great for them. If you worked hard, work hard, or you were given wealth that was earned at some point, and it's growing, why should that be a problem for anyone? We all work for more money and would gladly wish we had more than we need. The idea of it being unfair or wrong for the rich to be rich or to be taxed higher is pure jealousy at its core. So they can afford more taxes...get a better job or work harder so you can afford more as well. They don't deserve to pay more simply because they make or have more.
May I ask, are you a white male?
I'm a hillbilly chick and I agree with Shoeless.
Are you such a racist that you think their gender or skin color should be an attributing factor in their success or lack thereof?
I'm happy to answer, but first answer this question. Do you assign economic status by race? Statistically, all races have poor and all races have wealthy. The highest concentration of richest of the rich are of Arab descent. The largest number of the poorest of the poor are Asian (which includes India, from a geographic perspective). The only caveat is that accounts for people participating in the economy, not remote tribes in Africa or South America, for example. I'm assuming you ask because you feel the stereotype of blacks being the poor and whites being the rich is how the system works and proves white privilege. Which couldn't be further from the reality. In fact, the US poverty line is well above the global poverty line. So far above that in other less developed countries our poor would be among the rich.
Is that a yes?
If you paused to read my response, I said I would be happy to answer, but wanted you point of view first. Basically why you are asking. If you must know, I'm part Caucasian and part Chickasaw Indian. A higher percentage Caucasian though.
Short answer, I'm like everyone else here. I'm a mix too. My skin tone is paler than some, darker than others. I just happen to have the same color of grey matter between my ears that everyone does, so I can think beyond skin color.
And you're male?
Again, I ask, what does the race or gender have to do with success? If he were a Black Woman would you somehow suddenly have nothing to say about their success? Or would you get half triggered and say "Oh, well you're just a special case!" I think it's more or less the latter of the two. You're not looking to debate, you're looking for people to agree with your point of view and demand that anyone who doesn't hates poor people. Better question, are you okay with the Government taking more and more money from the ever diminishing middle class who works hard for their paycheck, only to have it stripped away, forcing them closer and closer to poverty, only to have that money given to people who refuse to do anything to help themselves to better themselves?
Celadonne, I am a Mexican immigrant and I strongly agree with shoeless.
I'm a white male. Does that impact the validity of my statement? I see that you could ask to point to a racial bias or to affirm that maybe a white guy gets it. I'm not going to put words in your mouth, you are entitled to your opinion and you may have something that would add to or alter my view.
I was curious about the situation from which your statements were coming so I could be better informed before speaking further. Is it possible that, for whatever reason(s) (governmental oppression, for example), some impoverished people in some underdeveloped societies might not be able to simply "get a better job or work harder" to achieve the same wealth as that of those who are richest in the world?
Sure. However, I strongly hold to the belief that it is self-inflicted to some great degree. This is the country of opportunity. I see uneducated illegal immigrants daily that are making a solid living because they take advantage of opportunities. Culturally, they want to work hard, make the most of the opportunities given and be very self-reliant. In other communities (crossing races as well), you will find people who have the defeatist mindset because they think they are held back because of who they are, their education or the color of their skin. They become dependent on government assistance and completely lose the will to improve beyond where they are. Now, that's not the entirety of our poor, but if you change those first, the population that is poor would be significantly reduced. I started my first job making $3.25/hr. Hard work and determination to continue to grow led me to where I am. I'm not rich by any means, but I work hard for a good living.
On a global scale, your question is very valid. Governments, zealous religious groups and a multitude of factors come in to play. However, there are success stories everywhere. When the will out strengthens the circumstance, great things happen.
All great points. Where did the defeatist thinking come from, do you think?
Hillbilly Elegy, a book by J. D. Vance, does a very good job of addressing how cultural barriers deter success for people from a very poor background. I'm still digesting it, days later, even though he specifically discusses my family's culture.
From a layman a observation, I think the defeatist comes from a couple of places. First is laziness/envy combination. People want to get better financially quicker, because they see others that have more or live easier, but they don't see the effort it took to get there. For example, most don't remember Bill Gates working from a garage. Or the guy they see driving s new fancy car and what he did to get there. When it doesn't happen quickly, they give up. Or they don't want to work at a harder less glamorous job to get there. Second, govt perpetuates the problem with excessive entitlement programs. In they aren't supposed to be entitlements, they are assistance programs (help to get over a hurdle). Lastly, there is a notion of sub-cultures within communities that fuel the defeatist idea. "You are X and will never be anything else" this promotes reliance on govt money and working that system or turning to quick money options, crime for example. Just some quick thoughts.
thanks, kywrite, i will check that out! did you gather from the book that those cultural barriers were more a mindset that might easily be overcome by a change in thinking (ie, the defeatist attitude to which shoeless alludes), or things that could not be overcome without other, perhaps unavailable, resources, such as money for education?
shoeless, do you have any ideas as to what we as individuals and as a society can do to prevent defeatist thinking? (sorry to take more of your time, but to me, discussions that result in ideas and, ultimately, action are really the only worthwhile ones)
I have enjoyed the dialogue. Your question requires a complex answer that I'm not qualified to provide. My thought is that the root of the defeatist mindset starts in the home. Change the home atmosphere and you change the community. But, it's easier said than done. I find my faith is the key. My relationship with Christ and his promises frees me. Im motivated to use the gifts He's given me to honor Him by working hard and attempting to fully utilize them. I'm not motivated by materialism, but to provide care to my family, since God entrusted them to me to tend to in this life. He's ultimately their "caretaker", but part of what I've been charged to do is take care of them and provide what I can for them. Beyond that, I wouldn't know where to start with an answer.
Change in thinking, yes; easily, no. And it's not money so much as a shift in the way multiple things are handled, like making allowances for cultural differences in how family is viewed. For instance, the writer dealt with some seriously histrionic emotional child abuse, but the state failed him because he knew that truthfully reporting it would get him separated from his beloved extended family. This was an old Kentucky clan out of Breathitt County, so you can probably imagine how even a child felt about that.
There were also some surprising things for anyone not raised in his culture, like going to an Ivy League college and being clueless about social etiquette and even certain social standards. (My family came out of Breathitt too, so I got him immediately.)
Really, really thought-provoking book for our race-saturated culture that points out it is NOT race, but class and subculture.
shoe & Ky, thank you for both of your time! YES, ky, exactly, class and subculture. You provide great examples of how complex each individual's situation might be; I'm VERY curious to read more. Thanks for the recommendation!
Shoeless, yes, I agree, the problem begins at home - assuming you mean there is often no one to teach the basic requirements for holding a job or advancing, such as confidence, work ethic, and overcoming adversity. And of course many homes lack any teachings of faith, on which one might rely for additional guidance and to which you've alluded. If these traits were innate, then we could expect more and call the lack of advancement a choice, but without them, I'm not so sure... Anyway, some community programs are helping, but I hope to read more from others and brainstorm about additional solutions :-)