Do you believe that early Christianity advocated for a collectivist society? This would also mean that the bible and Jesus were advocating for a primitive form of communism.
That communal model still persists to this day for some Catholics in the form of monasteries, convents, and religious orders that include a vow of poverty. But no, it wasn't the only model for the early church. Rather, it was a chosen lifestyle for certain groups. There were other Christians mentioned in the NT who were not part of that lifestyle. For example, it clearly states that Mary, Jesus' mother, owned a home. She was obviously a Christian and a member of the early church- so clearly, the communal model was voluntary.
This may help:
How could she have been Christian? She was Jewish.
You have to be kidding me.
Not at all. Until Jesus was born she was Jewish, like Jesus. She is he reason why Judaism is passed down through the mother.
If you're trying to make the case that Mary wasn't a Christian because she was born Jewish, then I'm not wasting any more time on this.
Was she white and Aryan/Anglo-Saxon, too? Bet you think she was an early member of the Tea Party, too.
Wtf are you talking about?
Like many other of the first converts to Christianity, she was Jewish.
Do you think a Jewish woman can't convert to Christianity?
Seriously, Bob. Reread my comments.
It's commonly understood that Mary was a Christian. She was the mother of Christ, after all, and a respected member of the early church.
Your insinuation that I must think she was white, or a tea party member makes you look like an uneducated liberal moron who's just looking for a fight.
Help me out then. Please point to the part of the Bible that says she became a "christian".
Why are you putting Christian in quotes?
The most obvious example is that Acts 1:14 clearly places her as one of the early Christians in a room praying with the Apostles before Pentecost.
Aside from other biblical examples, there is also the fact that the early church revered her as a saint (which they would not have done if she was not a Christian).
Does that help?
I have no idea what "praying before pentecost" has to do with being "Christian". I always thought Pentecost referred to a Jewish celebration. At least that's what it was originally. You know, back when Acts was written.
Pentecost was never a Jewish holiday. You're thinking of Passover.
Or maybe shavu'ot, which falls closer to Pentecost.
And the significance of Mary being with the apostles and the other Christians is that it means she was one of them. If she wasn't a Christian, she wouldn't have been there.
Thanks, Dud. Not sure I agree with you but you made a good point and supported it. I am bothered by all this talk on whether Christ was a conservative or liberal. I tend to think that it doesn't make a bit of difference and that most people arguing the point are simply trying to deify and justify their own beliefs. It's certainly easier to do that than use actual logic.
I never said anything about Christ having political leanings. I said that the early church did have elements of communal life, and even gave examples of how those persist today, but that it was voluntary.
What did I say that made you think I was making any sort of anachronistic political statement about the early church?
Nothing. It was a Truconservative
The maker of this poll, for example.
I don't see him as any different than the people arguing against him, who were also claiming that Jesus would fit inside a modern political construct.
Wow... Good question.
Jesus was actually a Jew, and Socialist.
Yes thank you, we are all aware he's a Jew...not all Jews are socialists if that's what you're trying to say
Except thats absolute bull shit. Jesus is the opposite of a socialist.
Sorry but Jesus is conservative
That annoys the fuck out of me when people say Jesus is a socialist. Thats like saying 2+2=0
So the whole feeding the hungry, healing the sick, throwing bankers out of the temple (regulating business). Admonishing people to pay their taxes. Never happened? Or examples of conservatism?
Those things are definitely not liberal. They arw not political. Jesus is conservative for the individual responsibility and freedom he taught. He is also obviously socially conservative. Conservatism is just small government and more freedom, it doesnt mean we dont like helping people. Its just not the government's job. Conservatives like to help by choosing to help, not through government stealing from others to make other people dependent. So Jesus is conservative
Any examples, such as I provided?
Truconservative will never give examples. I've been down this path with him before. It's like arguing with the village idiot.
The bible has proved on multiple occasions that the things Jesus advocated for were very similar to the ideal communistic society
Ha ha ha.....Truconservative is probably having a coronary after reading that. He'll bluster, but offer not facts to support his delusional ideas.
Bartman, not once did Jesus encourage the government to do any of those things. He called for individuals and the Church as an organization to provide those services.
Socialists depend on the government to provide. Jesus was apolitical. He was not a socialist.
Never said all Jews were. But Jesus was a Socialist.
That's false. You clearly don't know the TRUTH.
Because Jesus was a socialist. That's a fact! He was Muslim/Jew and a Socialist. He lived in the Middle East, and was NEVER born on December 24th. You clearly don't know the truth, which is pretty sad and quite ignorant.
How was Jesus Muslim? I thought Mohammed didn't come around until around the year 600. By my calendar that's around 600 years after Christ.
Now, other than Jesus' answer about taxes saying "Give unto Caesar what is Cesar's", did Christ ever talk about the government?
I think what he was trying to say was that both the Jews and the Muslims trace their lineage back from Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Jacob.
Raven and bob, you both are wrong. Jesus is conservative
Jesus was a communist who palled around with how many other men and their one female friend was a prostitute. Sounds pretty damn liberal to me and a bit gay.
The early Christian communities were basically communist groups.
No, I'm actually not!
I disagree. They were communities and a society that thrived on the charity of others. "Communist" points towards governmental involvement. The Roman government just wanted peace. They didn't care if all the Jews starved as long as they did it peacefully.
Communist is totally different than Socialist. You realize that correct?
And again, he wasn't communist at all. He was a Socialist!
Either way, a communist is still BETTER than Fascists/Authoritarians (Trump, Cruz, the rest of the Conservatives).
I'm so tired of Truconservative. He NEVER uses facts. At least Milkdud argues with some facts. I don't agree with 'Dud, but at least he makes me think about what I believe.
You can disagree all you want to, still doesn't take away from the facts you ignore the facts.
TrueConservative isn't bothered with facts. It's easier when people don't have to think.
Dam, it's so ironic how you guys say I don't use facts yet YOU are the ones who aren't using facts. YOU GUYS ARE SO DELUSIONAL! HERE IS A FACT: JESUS IS NOT A SOCIALIST JESUS IS A CONSERVATIVE! SATAN IS THE SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST.
Sorry but the politics of 2000 years ago are way different then today. Jesus is not a socialist. He is a conservative
You actually have to study this stuff and know what this stuff means. Jesus is very conservative
Jesus NEVER taught to make government programs to steal money from others. He says for YOU to CHOOSE to give to the poor. Also, giving to the poor back then is way different then socialism. Back then, with no advanced technology, there was like no such thing as a lazy freeloader. With the way life was, everyone was working hard. So those poor people actually deserved help. Today with all this technology it's easy to just be a lazy freeloader. Jesus never taught that it's okay to have someone do everything for you and be dependent on them. That's why it's not the government's job to redistribute wealth because A. It steals from people to do it B. It makes people dependent. It's just not fair. Jesus taught for YOU to help the poor not to create government programs that steal from other people to do it. He is conservative because he teaches self responsibility and self freedom. It's not that conservatives don't care about the poor, they just want small government, so that everything is
Fair, so that poor people can try to work for themselves, then you can help them out if they need it through charity or private thing, not government. Same for how it was with Jesus. Socialism is no where near what Jesus taught. Conservative values are all based off Jesus values, they correlate with Jesus values. Jesus is conservative
There are some facts for you
Conservatives actually want to help the poor, they just want to do it the right way, like how Jesus taught.
Conservatives want to help the poor by choosing to do it and doing it by themselves, JUST LIKE HOW JESUS TAUGHT
Those are ALL called opinions. Go home, bet your mother is calling you for bed time.
Wow, you are so delusional and blind to facts. How low of you to make a joke like that, it shows how immature you are. I just perfectly explained how I am right, but you just don't want to be wrong even though you are.
Poor Jesus, the shit that people say in his name must really piss him off. If there was a Jesus I don't think he's anything like you think he is. He was probably more like a liberal homo hipster.
Those people who say shit in his name is people like you. I gave the facts above, you just don't want to be wrong but you are. Sorry but you are blind to the facts
There actually was a Jesus. He was Muslim, lived the the Middle East and am was Jewish.
And I looked totally different than what people say he looks/looked like. He also wasn't born on December 24th. He was born in the Fall.
Oh and he was a Liberal. Socialist actually.
Raven, scroll above. Look, I proved that Jesus is conservative. Sorry but Jesus is not liberal
Read my super long paragraph above
Sorry but you are blind to the facts if you think Jesus is liberal. I gave you the facts. Jesus is conservative
He actually was, shows how much you really know!
And no, he was NEVER a Conservative.
You are literally ignorant if you think he would be for Politicians signing Anti-LGBT laws, defunding Planned Parenthood(trying to make abortion a crime), locking people up for smoking marijuana, etc,etc...
My friend is Christian. So, I think I would know! Plus, researchers who actually know what they're talking about prove you and others to be wrong.
My goodness children. Neither of you have PROVEN anything and neither of you are listening to the other because you are so Hellbent on winning the argument you are talking at each other and not with each other.
Trueconservative, if you would like to back what you are saying with any references from the Bible or from any other source, Ravenhead may actually honor your position. Until you do this, Raven is right and you are just giving opinion.
Ravenhead, I challenge you to do the same. You continue saying that Jesus was a Muslim when that's not possible. I agree that judaism, Islam, and Christianity all share common scripture and ancestors, but he wasn't Muslim. I also agree that Jesus wasn't blond hair and blue eyes, but was obviously middle eastern.
Now, either have a discussion where everyone can learn something (including me) or move on to another argument where I'm not on the thread.
Well said Ronderman.
Obviously, Jesus was not Muslim or Christian, because those churches did not yet exist. What can be said, is that the present day Muslims can trace their heritage back through Jesus, and back through Jacob, Moses, Noah, and Abraham.
Ravenhead, you are so delusional. Sorry, but i am a strong Christian and i have studied this thoroughly my whole life. And i actually understand it. You are blind to the facts raven. I just proved that Jesus is conservative. You just ignore the facts because you dont want to be wrong. Sorry but its a fact that Jesus ia conservative, raven.
Trueconservative, you have proven nothing. Just because you say the same thing repeatedly (be it with confidence) doesn't prove it.
Please show me ANYTHING from an outside source that backs your position. I'm not arguing your position, I'm just wanting you to actually prove it.
Note: Responding by saying "I have already proven it" does not prove your point.
Read that huge long paragraph i posted above if you haven't. All of it is true
"He says for YOU to CHOOSE to give to the poor."-Where? Reference?
"Back then, with no advanced technology, there was like no such thing as a lazy freeloader. With the way life was, everyone was working hard."-I agree, but still not proof. Cite a reference.
"Jesus never taught that it's okay to have someone do everything for you and be dependent on them. That's why it's not the government's job to redistribute wealth because A. It steals from people to do it B. It makes people dependent. It's just not fair."-All opinion
"Jesus taught for YOU to help the poor not to create government programs that steal from other people to do it."-Not proof. Still no reference.
"He is conservative because he teaches self responsibility and self freedom."-See above. You still haven't proven it.
"It's not that conservatives don't care about the poor, they just want small government"-I agree but you still have not PROVEN anything.
You have confidence, you even have a descent argument. What you don't have is proof.
Read the bible
Everything i said is true
Do you just not understand the concept of proof? I normally don't play the age card, but you are arguing like a 14 year old (or Donald Trump). Saying its proof doesn't make it proof.
By the way, I've read the Bible and could argue your point for you. I refuse to do it, because I'm trying to make a point. You seem incapable of proving anything other than you are quite stubborn and don't know how to properly debate. In this way, you do no favors to the mission of Christ or to conservatives because you will neither teach nor learn anything from any discussion you participate in.
This thread had lots of potential, but you pissed it away by screaming that you and only you were correct in anything you said. For all I know, you may have a doctorate in theology, but on this app, you have no authority and have to back up everything you say. No one is going to take your word for it.
I'm now done with you. Hopefully, you will learn from this and will be more effective next time.
You may now have the last word as you strike me as the immature sort of person that can't end a conversation without having the last word (another reason I think you are 14 years old).
Wow, how ironic. You are calling me immature yet you have no idea whats going on and yoi judge me. Just because you dont understand something doesn't mean i am 14. (I am way older than that).