Show of HandsShow of Hands

Sk8BoredR April 2nd, 2016 3:10pm

Do you believe that in a secular society where there is a clear separation of church and state that religious liberties laws should not be used as a justification for discrimination against LGBTQ Persons?

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thomas12266
04/07/16 7:03 pm

People have a right to religious freedom. It's one of the Ten Amendments.

Xemanis Neutral Good
04/02/16 4:44 pm

I don't think you should need to rely on 'religious liberties' to serve/not serve whoever you want to

singkitty In the cloud
04/03/16 7:23 am

So you want to go back to segregation.

Xemanis Neutral Good
04/03/16 11:31 am

A private business owner should be allowed to deny service to whoever they want to

IamPriscilla Idaho, USA
04/02/16 4:33 pm

If by "discriminate" you mean, declining to be the one to marry them, than no.

PrinceOberyn Io Himeros
04/02/16 11:00 am

No one should be allowed to discriminate against anyone in the public sphere. It is far past the time we abandoned the medieval notion that the church is an independent entity from the state. It can and should be separate, but it must be subject to the same laws as everyone else. Even if they're not discriminating, all religious institutions should be stripped of their tax-exempt status and face the same penalties for discrimination as the rest of us.

"But its against my beliefs!"

Here's the beautiful thing about beliefs, mio amigo, they can be fucking changed.

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IamPriscilla Idaho, USA
04/02/16 4:36 pm

Good. Than you will be able to change your descriminating beliefs that one has a right to force someone else to do something that they don't want to do.

MrsCrayonWax Kathys Klown
04/02/16 4:45 pm

I have to say, the argument for eliminating tax exempt status makes more sense as I start to think more on it. If religions truly want to be able to do as they see fit, maybe they should give up tax exempt status. Again, just an idea I'm conceptualizing.

PrinceOberyn Io Himeros
04/02/16 5:05 pm

"I don't wanna! You can't make me cause God said so!"

Does anyone else think that line of thinking is utterly childish? Churches should be subject to the same laws and rules as the rest of us. Discrimination is pathetic in of itself.

IamPriscilla Idaho, USA
04/02/16 5:09 pm

I think that the mentality "I wanna force YOU to marry me instead of getting someone who does want to, because I know you don't want to." Is childish pathetic and hateful and should not be tolerated.

PrinceOberyn Io Himeros
04/02/16 5:30 pm

Bullshit. Making a person or organization follow the same laws as every other citizen is not childish, it's the prerogative of a truly equal state. The church is not an independent entity, they do not nor should they get special privileges.

IamPriscilla Idaho, USA
04/02/16 5:34 pm

They are and should be if, you don't want the church becoming part of the state.

PrinceOberyn Io Himeros
04/02/16 5:37 pm

The church needs to be separate but not independent of the state. It won't infect the state if it's under its boot heel, having no temporal power beyond ritual.

IamPriscilla Idaho, USA
04/02/16 5:48 pm

Usually, if the church can't be independent of the state, it just changes the state laws to fit.

MrsCrayonWax Kathys Klown
04/02/16 6:08 pm

Prince, are you saying that the churches shouldn't be allowed to discriminate and should be subject to the same laws? that would in essence sanitize and level all the religions to where they no longer can have any independent beliefs that differ with the government. Basically eliminating religion. That still can't eliminate free thought. There will still be people who don't like and/or agree with lgbtq. Why does anyone care that some religions won't marry gays? Many more can and do and tantamount to that, the federal government document is the one that really matters in terms of economic advantages.

PrinceOberyn Io Himeros
04/02/16 7:10 pm

Actually, now that I think about it, MrsCrayon, that would be an excellent long-term goal for such a plan.

MrsCrayonWax Kathys Klown
04/02/16 7:19 pm

I think that's where we part ways on the topic. lol

stammtheman Mamou
04/02/16 10:47 am

Skate, you have a knack for digging out the seemingly small and overlooked issues. Good job.

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nib
04/02/16 10:38 am

Why do we need permission to discriminate?

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singkitty In the cloud
04/02/16 8:18 am

I believe that religious organizations like churches shouldn't have to perform ceremonies of same sex marriages. However non affiliated merchants such as bridal boutiques, tux rentals, catering venues and the like should.

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allswel Minnesota
04/02/16 8:27 am

Well said, except:

Religious organizations should be free to discriminate if it is their belief. But religious organizations that discriminate should lose their tax free status.

MrsCrayonWax Kathys Klown
04/02/16 9:05 am

So any church that doesn't go against its tenets should lose tax exempt status?

allswel Minnesota
04/02/16 9:24 am

If those tenets would violate the law if they were not a religious organization, yes.

allswel Minnesota
04/02/16 9:30 am

For example, a religion might be able to justify the smoking of Peyote as a religious tenet, but they should not be able to purchase and use it tax exempt.

A school owned and run by a religion might be able to refuse admittance to someone based on their race, but they should not then be considered tax exempt or qualify as a non-profit for tax exempt donations.

MrsCrayonWax Kathys Klown
04/02/16 9:52 am

Good points..

IamPriscilla Idaho, USA
04/02/16 4:40 pm

So you want the government to be involved in descriminating?

singkitty In the cloud
04/02/16 5:24 pm

It is separation of church and state. If a church group doesn't want it that's fine. It's still legal the church doesn't have to recognize it.