Do you believe that in a secular society where there is a clear separation of church and state that religious liberties laws should not be used as a justification for discrimination against LGBTQ Persons?
People have a right to religious freedom. It's one of the Ten Amendments.
I don't think you should need to rely on 'religious liberties' to serve/not serve whoever you want to
So you want to go back to segregation.
A private business owner should be allowed to deny service to whoever they want to
If by "discriminate" you mean, declining to be the one to marry them, than no.
No one should be allowed to discriminate against anyone in the public sphere. It is far past the time we abandoned the medieval notion that the church is an independent entity from the state. It can and should be separate, but it must be subject to the same laws as everyone else. Even if they're not discriminating, all religious institutions should be stripped of their tax-exempt status and face the same penalties for discrimination as the rest of us.
"But its against my beliefs!"
Here's the beautiful thing about beliefs, mio amigo, they can be fucking changed.
Good. Than you will be able to change your descriminating beliefs that one has a right to force someone else to do something that they don't want to do.
I have to say, the argument for eliminating tax exempt status makes more sense as I start to think more on it. If religions truly want to be able to do as they see fit, maybe they should give up tax exempt status. Again, just an idea I'm conceptualizing.
"I don't wanna! You can't make me cause God said so!"
Does anyone else think that line of thinking is utterly childish? Churches should be subject to the same laws and rules as the rest of us. Discrimination is pathetic in of itself.
I think that the mentality "I wanna force YOU to marry me instead of getting someone who does want to, because I know you don't want to." Is childish pathetic and hateful and should not be tolerated.
Bullshit. Making a person or organization follow the same laws as every other citizen is not childish, it's the prerogative of a truly equal state. The church is not an independent entity, they do not nor should they get special privileges.
They are and should be if, you don't want the church becoming part of the state.
The church needs to be separate but not independent of the state. It won't infect the state if it's under its boot heel, having no temporal power beyond ritual.
Usually, if the church can't be independent of the state, it just changes the state laws to fit.
Prince, are you saying that the churches shouldn't be allowed to discriminate and should be subject to the same laws? that would in essence sanitize and level all the religions to where they no longer can have any independent beliefs that differ with the government. Basically eliminating religion. That still can't eliminate free thought. There will still be people who don't like and/or agree with lgbtq. Why does anyone care that some religions won't marry gays? Many more can and do and tantamount to that, the federal government document is the one that really matters in terms of economic advantages.
Actually, now that I think about it, MrsCrayon, that would be an excellent long-term goal for such a plan.
I think that's where we part ways on the topic. lol
Skate, you have a knack for digging out the seemingly small and overlooked issues. Good job.
Why do we need permission to discriminate?
I believe that religious organizations like churches shouldn't have to perform ceremonies of same sex marriages. However non affiliated merchants such as bridal boutiques, tux rentals, catering venues and the like should.
Well said, except:
Religious organizations should be free to discriminate if it is their belief. But religious organizations that discriminate should lose their tax free status.
So any church that doesn't go against its tenets should lose tax exempt status?
If those tenets would violate the law if they were not a religious organization, yes.
For example, a religion might be able to justify the smoking of Peyote as a religious tenet, but they should not be able to purchase and use it tax exempt.
A school owned and run by a religion might be able to refuse admittance to someone based on their race, but they should not then be considered tax exempt or qualify as a non-profit for tax exempt donations.
So you want the government to be involved in descriminating?
It is separation of church and state. If a church group doesn't want it that's fine. It's still legal the church doesn't have to recognize it.