Show of HandsShow of Hands

Mattwall1 August 6th, 2015 1:59am

What the BlackLivesMatter and other similar movements need to understand is, no matter how justified their claims may be, they cannot permanently act as agitators and expect to succeed. Eventually, they must play coalition politics with the majority.

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cornybread The Large Malus Fruit
08/06/15 10:57 am

"Black lives matter" doesn't imply that all lives don't matter or that black people are more important. I find it amusing but also pretty embarrassing that white people tend to get mad when things aren't all about us.

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Mattwall1
08/06/15 11:29 am

I agree, but that doesn't change the numbers

rons screw politicians
08/06/15 6:24 am

Can they stop the killing in Chicago, Baltimore and New York if it really matters.

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rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
08/06/15 4:25 am

Lot of generalizations here. Even in the 60's there was MLK and Malcom X.

Liberty 4,032,064
08/05/15 9:29 pm

Well, when you chastise people for saying that "all lives matter," you aren't even attempting to be taken seriously.

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Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:39 pm

I'm not so sure that's the intent. I can absolutely understand why that's becoming how people see them-but that's not their intent. Their intent is based in the belief (right or wrong), that society overall, and especially LE, views blacks as lesser

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:40 pm

And their lives worthless, something that isn't the case with other groups, leading to the BlackLivesMatter not because they feel superior, but because they feel oppressed. As such, their chastising wasn't based in a feeling of only black lives

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:41 pm

Matter, but "we all agree they matter. It's just that they don't feel we do, so stop hijacking." Whether the movement's views are justified or not, they are serious, and their chastising isn't proof of lunacy or irrelevancy

melmeltx funky town, texas
08/05/15 8:02 pm

I would say that applies in all cases of extreme propaganda statements. I'm so tired of every other poll being about Planned Parenthood "Murders". I get there's an opinion on both sides, but the inflammatory name calling just turns people off

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melmeltx funky town, texas
08/05/15 8:03 pm

that otherwise may listen to a diff point of view.

Mattwall1
08/06/15 11:35 am

I'm not sure I'd qualify this as extreme propaganda. However, while I agree with you on the PP issue, that's one issue where it literally is life or death for half of the country, and a privacy issue for the other. There are some people able to have

Mattwall1
08/06/15 11:37 am

A rational discussion, but in my experience at least, one side is too invested in calling the other murderers to care, and the other is too invested in thinking its opponents are Stalinistic tyrants to care.

melmeltx funky town, texas
08/06/15 3:35 pm

you're right, BlackLivesMatter isn't extreme propaganda. I was clueing more into the agitators piece & in turn agitators creating extreme propaganda on sensitive topics. It puts up walls, divides.

melmeltx funky town, texas
08/06/15 3:36 pm

10-80-10 rule... unfortunately the 10% on each side that are agitators makes all the noise & prevents the 80% from having a rational discussion.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/05/15 7:24 pm

I would avoid the word "agitators." It's an incredibly loaded term in this context. And coalition politics only works if other groups are willing to give your pet issues serious air time. Why should they lend legitimacy to people who throw them under

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bethanyq Ess Eff
08/05/15 7:24 pm

the bus repeatedly?

thatguy2 We tried to warn you
08/05/15 7:35 pm

I agree completely.

Mattwall1
08/05/15 7:36 pm

Relating to the first point, I'm not meaning it in a negative way, just as a basic descriptor. While I would absolutely say they shouldn't tolerate those wanting them thrown under the bus, that's also not every non black person. Would the 1960's

Mattwall1
08/05/15 7:37 pm

Civil Rights movement have been anywhere near as successful if it's leaders didn't play coalition politics, even if they and their (mostly white) partners didn't agree on everything? No. Does that mean they should've included George Wallaceites? Also

Mattwall1
08/05/15 7:38 pm

No. The problem is movements like the BlackLivesMatter movement don't have a broad base, and for better or worse, their current actions seem to slowly build one while causing polarization among those that don't join it. Hopefully, that trend can be

Mattwall1
08/05/15 7:39 pm

Reversed, and history would seem to suggest it can, so long as they understand coalition partners do have disagreements from time to time. Unfortunately, history also suggests their will be a strong reaction, but that's on the reactionaries heads,

Mattwall1
08/05/15 7:40 pm

Not those fighting for causes like this

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/05/15 7:59 pm

You may be referencing specific things I'm not familiar with, but I'm not saying how the BlackLivesMatter movement is doing anything "wrong." They aren't backing off of their message, obviously, but they shouldn't, and they shouldn't be expected to.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/05/15 8:00 pm

And I would argue that the Civil Rights Movement didn't gain any traction until its most well-known heroes engaged in numerous instances of civil disobedience - literally breaking numerous laws, and serving jail time for it. That's "agitation" if

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/05/15 8:01 pm

anything is. In fact, many white allies to the Civil Rights Movement likewise served time in jail. If they hadn't, it likely would have been much more difficult to get political leaders with real power to pay attention to the ugly and prevalent

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/05/15 8:03 pm

racial discrepancies in the real world.

I know that you agree with their aims and you're coming from a place of wanting them to be effective, but I'm having difficulty squaring your point with what history pretty clearly shows us. People in power

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/05/15 8:03 pm

won't pay attention until it makes them uncomfortable enough that they can no longer ignore things.

Again, it's possible you are referring to events I'm not familiar with. But I haven't seen anything that would qualify IMO as unreasonable.

thatguy2 We tried to warn you
08/05/15 8:09 pm

Right. Many progressive complained of a circular firing squad when BLM protested at the NetRoots Nation conference, yet that action was directly responsible for Democracy for America changing their endorsement process to focus on issues of racism.

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:31 pm

Agitation in itself is not a bad thing-there's no doubt civil disobedience occurred during the civil rights movement, and that it could be called agitation. The problem is agitation alone is not enough. Agitation brought attention to the issue, but

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:33 pm

It also caused a reaction against it. It took coalition politics between black and white civil rights activists, who saw a common problem, and could agree on some major fixes even if not all, to combat the reactionary forces whole being able to turn

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:34 pm

The pendulum towards achieving a change. Maybe it's because it's relatively new, but the BLM movement seems to have not developed a coalition arm to be able to work the political results of their attempts to change the system. I don't see their

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:35 pm

Actions as wrong. They are coming from the right place, and it's certainly fair to say that society at large tends to ignore blacks, and that an argument can absolutely be made that overall, law enforcement views blacks as inherent criminals. At

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:37 pm

Least in my own experience, there seems to be no willingness to work to change the system outside of agitation, ie using a coalition political strategy. At least from what I can tell (and being anecdotal this could be wrong overall), is the fact a

Mattwall1
08/05/15 10:37 pm

Coalition would inherently include people who don't 100% agree and don't 100% see eye to eye-even if they agree with 95% of the major issues and can see eye to eye at the same rate, that 5% becomes tantamount to being seen as borderline evil.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/06/15 6:18 am

I guess I don't see how they've shown an unwillingness to build coalitions. What I have seen is a refusal to water down their message. If white activists won't work with BLM unless BLM "behaves" rhetorically, then BLM shouldn't be working with those

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/06/15 6:20 am

white activists.

What I see is people telling BLM to tone it down, because (in different words, but this is the real meaning) they're making white people uncomfortable. That's just nuts to me. Rosa Parks made white people uncomfortable. MLK made

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/06/15 6:21 am

white people uncomfortable. Malcolm X made white people SUPER uncomfortable. I am not perfect, but when movements like BLM make me uncomfortable, I try to take a step back and see what I'm missing, because as a privileged white woman I miss a LOT. I

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/06/15 6:22 am

love Bernie Sanders but I was SUPER disappointed in his response to being heckled. It was like he's never done two minutes of thinking about his privilege. I put that on HIM, not on BLM.

Mattwall1
08/06/15 10:36 am

It's true all those figures made people uncomfortable, and there are people willing to use uncomfortableness to look at their own situations. The problem, is after a while, you either need to capitalize on the uncomfortableness, even if that means

Mattwall1
08/06/15 10:37 am

The same leaders working with whites in the 1960's, or non blacks today. And it doesn't require a changing of goals, or even message, but the same message expressed in two different ways can receive two different reactions. There were whites in the

Mattwall1
08/06/15 10:39 am

Civil rights movement who thought MLK went too far in some areas, but they could agree and build a coalition on the need to end desegregation and discriminatory voting and housing practices, even if thy might disagree on jobs programs. Unfortunately

Mattwall1
08/06/15 10:39 am

Some groups are bitter because they feel that blacks don't acknowledge their role in the civil rights movement. That's not BLM's fault-but the unfortunate reality is they do have to deal with it, and they do have to deal with a reality where

Mattwall1
08/06/15 10:40 am

Eventually, if they want to make substantive change, they have to change how they're perceived. That doesn't mean that they can't have the same message. It does mean that, unfortunately, they do have to understand that no minority, no matter

Mattwall1
08/06/15 10:41 am

How righteous their cause, can bring about political change without a coalition with other societal elements unless they control the apparatus of the state (say, South Africa during apartheid), or their ultimate goal is to completely leave the state.

Mattwall1
08/06/15 10:42 am

Seeing as neither of those are the case...

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/06/15 11:50 am

So maybe I'm just not understanding what it is you think they should do that they aren't doing? Like, specifically.

Mattwall1
08/06/15 12:13 pm

I would personally say they need to find leaders that can talk to the public and convince the public they aren't dangerous radicals, in order to gain broader support they can then use to build change, whether locally, state, or federally. They could

Mattwall1
08/06/15 12:14 pm

(And honesty, should) still protest, but they need to get out of the protest only state. And while we both know that BlackLivesMatter is not saying all lives don't, it is fair to say they suffered a PR blow because of that whole incident. I don't

Mattwall1
08/06/15 12:15 pm

Think it was right they did-after all, their point isn't black supremacy but black equality, but they did, and I'm not sure what they've done to combat it. That could simply be my own lack of knowledge there, but it seems like the media ran with it

Mattwall1
08/06/15 12:16 pm

And never got any side of the story behind people complaining about the phrase BlackLivesMatter. It's still largely a grassroots movement, but they need to find a way to take back control of the narrative from their opponents