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swervin August 2nd, 2015 4:24pm

Based on a comment on an abortion poll, do you think people are pro-life because they want to control women?

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FacePalm That Trick Never Works
08/04/15 2:06 pm

They want to control women (not men) because they are pro-life.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
08/02/15 4:36 pm

Of course not. We're Pro-Life because we want to save the lives of the thousands of innocent, defenseless little boys and girls being murdered each day in the US just for "convenience" and "freedom of choice." The choice to murder is a wrong choice.

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sea California
08/02/15 4:31 pm

I guess I can see the pro choice point of view here. Yes I do want to control women's actions. Isn't that what all laws do? I want to control men to stop them from raping women too. Why is that wrong?

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JustBob Your anger fascinates me
08/02/15 4:24 pm

If you are against late term abortion, you're still telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
08/02/15 4:39 pm

Nope. The baby's body is a separate, distinct human body with its own independent brainwaves and its own DNA. We are telling the woman what she may or may not do with someone else's body.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
08/02/15 4:41 pm

Does she have the option to have the baby removed from her body?

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 5:44 pm

After viability, maybe.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
08/02/15 5:50 pm

Not optimally with current medical technology, but since you specified a late-term abortion, fireefly's right, if an OB-GYN would do such a procedure in good conscience, knowing the baby would go straight to a NICU.

AmyElizabeth Outside of Philly
08/02/15 3:00 pm

I could see some men being for it to control a woman. "Some"men, definitely not all!

Jeninerd Hoth, AK
08/02/15 10:47 am

Some people, yes. All people, no.

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iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 10:34 am

They're Pro-Life...
😒
because they're Anti-Murder.

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swervin Maryland
08/02/15 2:03 pm

Whoa, I think you just blew my mind with that one. So it has nothing to do with controlling women, but everything to do with not killing people?

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 2:25 pm

Believe it or not.
😉
There is actually a growing consensus that all human life is precious & should be honored. We stopped people from baking Jews, now we just need to get people to stop chopping up babies.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
08/02/15 4:40 pm

Well put, iPol.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 5:48 pm

But it's not all human life, is it? I mean, it's hard to say this, while condoning the use of drones, torture, capital punishment, etc., is it not? And don't hear me accuse you of anything beyond this: you're missing a large asterisk after "all."

swervin Maryland
08/02/15 6:08 pm

I value the lives of those who have not had a chance more than those who had their chance and blew it. Murderers are not human anymore to me. Terrorists are the same. When you decide to kill innocent people, you give up your humanity.

swervin Maryland
08/02/15 6:10 pm

That's how I feel about the whole issue.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 6:24 pm

This would be part of that asterisk, yes.

Also, though, let's not ignore cases that have been overturned posthumously. Do those who have later been found not guilty, gain back their humanity?

swervin Maryland
08/02/15 6:39 pm

Sure. Do the babies that are killed get another chance at life if the mom feels bad about having the abortion 20 years later?

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 6:46 pm

You're right; they don't. And that's a different discussion entirely. I'm only saying that to oppose abortion on the basis of the sanctity of all human life is not exactly accurate if these stand as well.

swervin Maryland
08/02/15 6:54 pm

They do for situations with people who think like me. But I'm a weird egg, I am pro choice and pro death penalty.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 7:57 pm

You mean "Anti-Murder" & "Pro-Justice"
😆
Anyone who is not Pro-Justice (Pro-Death-Penalty) perverts the value of all human life, security & sanctity of the community. Murder is the most heinous crime against all society that demands justice.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 8:03 pm

iPol: I'm just not sure if you're trolling or what, but... Pro-justice = pro-death-penalty? You've got to be kidding.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 8:10 pm

It says something about you when you'd rather coddle & cozy the perpetrators of crime & deny justice & recompense to the families & nation that have been been savaged.
😒
Makes you an accomplice to the worst criminals that prey & plague humanity.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 8:24 pm

Not all brands of anti-murder resemble yours. And certainly not all brands of "pro-justice."

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 8:34 pm

Yes, true. I suppose some murders are acceptable -- even encouraged & idolized by...some. I refuse to call them "people" though, as they represent the very worst imaginable of humanity.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 8:40 pm

Dehumanizing is one of the classic tactics for justifying anything you want to do to people. I mean, throw "innocent until proven guilty" out the window, disregard mistakes, and lean on the infallibility of the criminal justice system, right?

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 8:49 pm

Argument from Adverse Consequences Fallacy: The justice system is imperfect but still functions to a high degree of social necessity & efficiency. Imperfection is not a reason for negation.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 8:53 pm

Wait a second. Are you sure you want to open up logical fallacies? Because I can defend my admittedly sarcastic response with figures that show nontrivial numbers of posthumous reconsiderations. Do you want to go back and read your comments first?

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 8:54 pm

Irrelevant Conclusion Fallacy: Claiming "Dehumanizing" statements are false is false.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 8:57 pm

No True Scotsman Fallacy: Your conclusion that, since there is no "perfect" system for capital punishment, capital punishment cannot be used is false. Nothing is perfect.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 9:04 pm

My argument is not against the criminal justice system, in general. I'm very much grateful for it. It's not perfect, no, but as you said, nothing is. That said, capital punishment is entirely irreversible, and if you're coming from the point that

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 9:06 pm

all human life is precious, then you're being dishonest with yourself. If you want to talk about No True Scotsman, I'd like to present you with your stance that criminals are not to be considered true humans.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 9:11 pm

Ignoratio Elenchi is exactly where you are going with your line of discussion regarding your so-called pro-justice stance.

Would you like to talk about False Dichotomy? (Pro-capital punishment vs anti-justice)

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:15 pm

I contest that capital punishment does infinitely more good than harm to a society. What is irreversible is the injustice of a murdered person. If all human life is precious—then all human life *must* be avenged.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:16 pm

As a society we cannot tolerate heinous crimes. Criminals are often victims of themselves, but heinous crimes are a cancer that must be rooted out at all cost to save the life of the community. No justice, no peace--no life.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 9:17 pm

Perhaps Straw Man? (coddle and comfort)

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 9:19 pm

And why do you contest that capital punishment does (I'll leave out the word infinitely. I mean, come on.) more good than bad?

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:20 pm

Ignoratio Elenchi? Strawman? Please try to state your argument without Red Herring me to death.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:22 pm

When you allow murderers go unpunished, it destroys the fabric of society. Are you contesting a lawless society without equal consequence? Madness. What can replace a life but a life?

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 9:25 pm

Nice try. My point was that you cannot simultaneously argue anti-abortion from a purely sanctity-of-all-human-life standpoint, and condone the killing of other people. You can argue anti-abortion from different angles, but not purely this one.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 9:28 pm

No one suggests that murder go unpunished. We disagree on what is acceptable as punishment, particularly when we cannot definitively prove guilt. Are you suggesting that a life replaces a life? Because it doesn't.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:39 pm

Yessss! That’s exactly what I’m saying. Sanctity-of-life demands capital punishment. I find the victim sacrosanct…you find the murder sacrosanct. They both cannot be. You can be a defender or you can be an accomplice. I choose to support the victim.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:40 pm

Punishment? You aren’t the creative authority on appropriate retribution. You don’t have the right of cruel & unusual punishment. There is no imaginable price to pay for murder but your own life. Justice must be fair.

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:40 pm

Also, you are against killing? Bizarre. The right of self-defense is inalienable—even to the killing of one who is trying to murder you. What are you? A suicidal pacifist?

iPolitix Political Party Animal
08/02/15 9:41 pm

I want police protecting our people—killing when necessary. I want soldiers protecting our people—killing when necessary. How does the sanctity-of-human-life end by saving lives??? There is a difference between murder and killing.

swervin Maryland
08/02/15 9:44 pm

@firefly: someone holds a gun to your head and says, "chose, I kill you, this prematurely born baby with a 50/50 shot at surviving on its own, or this convicted murderer". What do you do?

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 10:09 pm

@iPol: of course there is. I'm not arguing there isn't, and I'm sorry if I came across otherwise. I am opposed to capital punishment. I think we're better than that.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 10:14 pm

@swervin: what kind of a person would do something like this? Make me choose between which of two people to kill?

swervin Maryland
08/02/15 10:17 pm

You are avoiding answering. You know you want to say the murderer because he had his chance at life and messed up.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 10:23 pm

What I want to say is that it's not up to me to decide, and that the man holding the gun is the villain in your story. But I can see the bars on this hypothetical cage.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
08/02/15 10:08 am

Moreso they want to force their religious beliefs and values on everybody

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Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
08/02/15 10:25 am

In a sense, but that's a bit too oversimplified

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 10:43 am

... or the value life ... even yours. While anti-life crowd believes that selfishness is the key to happiness.

GlockMan1 Alabama
08/02/15 12:27 pm

There are 1000's of people who are Pro life that are not religious. What is their reason since they are not interested in religion.

Laserbeam Crazy bird lady
08/02/15 1:16 pm

That's a good question. I too am curious. If someone who fits the description would like to educate us, by all means 😄

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 7:51 pm

Understanding the sanctity of life isn't exclusive to religionists.

greeengoddess Minnesota
08/03/15 6:27 am

The definition of sanctity is "set apart by god as holy"

Think Lovin Life
08/03/15 6:29 am

Greenie ... now you're starting to see! That's a good thing!!!

greeengoddess Minnesota
08/03/15 6:43 am

No, I'm saying that, by definition, recognizing the sanctity of anything is exclusive to people who believe in god.

Think Lovin Life
08/03/15 6:45 am

Greenie ... wrong! Non-religionists can (and do) reverence or respect the value of many things.

I'd suggest you're trying too hard to tell yourself what you're not doing ...

greeengoddess Minnesota
08/03/15 6:51 am

Understanding and respecting the value of life is completely different than recognizing the sanctity of anything.

Think Lovin Life
08/03/15 6:53 am

Greenie ... continue splitting that hair as long as you think you need to do it.

It's worth noting that, ironically, you have "god" in your name ... just saying!

greeengoddess Minnesota
08/03/15 6:59 am

It's not ironic at all though... Are you serious?? My name is Athena, after the Greek goddess...

mc88 Cleveland OSU
08/02/15 10:04 am

I was about to say that

swervin Maryland
08/02/15 4:24 pm

This is not my way of thinking. I just thought it was one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard and had to find out if anyone agreed.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 8:44 pm

While there undoubtedly are some people for whom this is true, I can't think that this group makes up anything resembling a majority.

firefly5 the verse
08/02/15 8:47 pm

Among the groups that do, I don't think it's necessarily a conscious thing for most. But the ones who do operate toward this agenda definitely leave a bitter taste. And we've all come across them.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 9:41 am

Of course not on a conscious level. But there is an element of control underlying the discussion. It mostly gets hinted at when you try to draw out why there is a distinction between abortion in cases of rape and other abortions.

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Maj Worth Economist
08/02/15 10:13 am

Or laws requiring things like a transvaginal ultrasound before an abortion despite evidence that they're not effective in preventing abortions. Or denying low income people access to affordable gynecology. Or lying to women about pregnancy.

greeengoddess Minnesota
08/02/15 10:15 am

Exactly. Also, imposing your beliefs on everyone else is exactly what controlling is. Regardless of whether or not anti-choice people are actually thinking that they want to control women, taking away the right to choose *does* control women.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 11:48 am

Great points, Maj. Tough to argue there's no desire to control women when people keep pushing legislation that increases the burden on women without an ounce of evidence that it effectively reduces abortions.

sea California
08/02/15 7:15 pm

For me, it is on a conscious level. If I believe abortion constitutes killing innocent humans then yes I will curtail other people's actions. Just like every other law out there that governs behavior. Examples: rape, murder, theft, kidnapping...

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
08/04/15 2:02 pm

Or the mantra: if you (the woman) don't want to get pregnant, then you (the woman) should not have sex.

gow488 Korea
08/02/15 9:35 am

It's probably for religious reasons but preventing abortions does control women.

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Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 10:45 am

Actually, the sick twisted joke is on the pro-death feminists as more female babies are killed than male babies.

So, who's really controlling?

gow488 Korea
08/02/15 10:58 am

It's still you

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 11:02 am

Wrong! Those killing a disproportionate number of female babies, and then suggesting that "those bad religionists" are controlling women are laughing all the way, as they (baby killers) know they've got you!

gow488 Korea
08/02/15 11:05 am

You sound like a crazed conspiracy theorist,

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 11:08 am

Gow ... I understand. Facts sound like a conspiracy when you've drunk too much of the progressive kool-aid.

Put your cup down, drink some water, and soon enough your common sense will return!

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 11:11 am

Gow ... you may want to pick up the writings of Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood. If HER OWN WORDS don't open your eyes, then you've gone blind by the kool-aid.

gow488 Korea
08/02/15 11:26 am

Unless you have some actual facts to back up your massive conspiracy it makes no sense at all

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 11:29 am

Gow ... don't read Ms Sanger, don't look at the gender abortion stats. Then you won't have to face the truth.

The conspiracy is on the left, and their ability to convince you not to dig into the truth.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 9:33 am

Just the opposite.

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bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 9:42 am

The opposite? I can get sincerely believing (however incorrectly) that legislation that controls women isn't desirable *because* it controls women, but how on earth is opposing the right to choose the "opposite" of wanting to control women?

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 9:46 am

Manages the number of poor children born.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 10:02 am

So causing more poor children to be born to women who may not have access to quality sex education is somehow the opposite of controlling women?

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 10:48 am

Bethany ... quality sex education is the answer? Come on! That's like saying abortions are the result of rape.

The VAST majority of abortions are because of the selfish lazy mother, who had plenty of sex ed and wasn't raped.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 11:10 am

Think, you're wrong. I think they are coerced into an abortion. IMO

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 11:12 am

Ron ... that could be ... unlike progressives, I can admit it when presented with the facts.

Right now, I'd go so far as to say brainwashed by the liars at Planned Parenthood.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 11:16 am

They are scared young women and not able to make clear decisions. They are led to clinics were recommendations are made. Abortion is the solution of choice and not necessarily made by the poor girl.

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 11:17 am

Sad! I'd love to see some data on the views of these young women a year or two after they've murdered their babies ... I'd guess many feel guilty.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 11:19 am

They are conditioned to have no remorse.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 11:41 am

Rons, do you have evidence to back up your assertion that women only have abortions because they are *coerced* into it? Because without a really solid evidentiary basis for that statement, it's incredibly patronizing and paternalistic.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 11:50 am

Beth, I just see very young, poorly educated, scared women with little to look forward to. They could have the baby but the father is out making some else pregnant. It's how I see things. Your vision is different and I respect that.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 11:56 am

Well, I have known educated, professional women who have gotten abortions because they didn't want to be pregnant/have kids at the time. No one coerced them into it.

So while you use the word "respect," you are saying some very disrespectful things

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 11:57 am

without evidence. You are portraying women you don't know as childish and weak and unable to make their own decisions. Frankly it would be more respectful of you to call them murderers, wrong as you'd be. At least you wouldn't be robbing them of

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 11:57 am

their basic agency.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 11:58 am

Exactly as you say. Very few are capable of making a choice on their own.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 12:00 pm

BTW I not anti-abortion. I'm anti what I believe to be the methodology. I just feel most are led to that decision.

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 12:01 pm

... because the agency to murder is a basic right ...

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 12:03 pm

I guess I'm not sure what to say to that. Honestly it probably doesn't matter what I say since it seems you don't deem us women capable of independent thought anyway.

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 12:10 pm

Beth ... ha ha ... That's the best you've got? I understand that you're incapable of defending your outlandishly false statement, but who'd have thought that you'd retreat to the victim position?

You've revealed your dishonesty!

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 12:11 pm

Beth ... it's a simple request. You say the man made racist comments. I say, prove it. You say I'm now a sexist because I dared to challenge your false statement.

You prove that progressives are becoming more brittle daily!

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 12:13 pm

Keep your comment threads straight, "Think." And I was talking to rons, not you. You've said nothing warranting a substantive response.

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 12:16 pm

Beth ... run, little girl, run!

Just know that your cowardly retreat is because you can't substantiate your lies.

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 12:22 pm

Beth, never said all either. I see that 72 percent of black children are born to an unwed mother. The abortion rate is high among black, young women. Something is wrong. Very wrong. If you think it's their choice so be it. I don't

Think Lovin Life
08/02/15 12:26 pm

Ron ... I did post the wrong response to this thread ... I'm sorry for that. Beth has made many ridiculous comments today.

Are you suggesting that the black women who are getting abortions had no choice in their pregnancy?

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 1:13 pm

Many of the women were guided with their choice. They signed the paper so ultimately it was their decision.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 2:22 pm

Rons, do men ever make misguided decisions?

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 2:52 pm

Of course. I need my wife to straighten me out more often then not. Impulsive, wrong thinking, stubborn, annoying, a baby, grouchy, cantankerous, sometimes evil. She'll fix it by end of day. Lucky me!

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 2:57 pm

Okay. So if we passed a law forbidding men from doing something that men are sometimes coerced into doing (let's say the law *forbids* unmarried men from being active fathers), would you consider that to control men, or the opposite of control them?

rons Thanks America
08/02/15 3:39 pm

No laws! But men are easily duped. Look how they follow the drivel their professors preach in school. Bunch of lemmings.

bethanyq Ess Eff
08/02/15 5:17 pm

But pro-life individuals wish to pass *laws* regulating women's conduct, do they not? So why is it different if I want to pass laws regulating men's conduct?

SticksandStones Stop fearmongering
08/02/15 9:27 am

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

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swervin Maryland
08/02/15 9:29 am

My thoughts exactly. You were commenting on the poll I was referencing. Check that out for yourself.