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JustBob July 29th, 2015 2:30pm

Amy (22) has the mentality of 10 and is obviously challenged. She was going to the park and comes home with half a turtle tattooed on her face. Her parents are suing the artist for removal. His defense "she had ID and cash." Should he have to pay?

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kjs Minnesota
07/31/15 6:42 pm

TheGreatC different circumstances. I roamed when I was ten too but it was a different time

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JustBob Your anger fascinates me
08/01/15 10:58 am

Was it a different time, or just different reporting systems? In the early 80s local law enforcement was responsible for the missing children in their jurisdiction. This probably meant a not-to-sophisticated database and little collaboration with

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
08/01/15 11:00 am

Other law enforcement. I guess the question is, were the systems that we have now put in place because of an increasingly dangerous world, or was the world always dangerous, and the systems just clue us in on just how dangerous it is?

cmeszko99 New York
07/31/15 8:35 am

It's sad but I wouldn't fault the artist.

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kjs Minnesota
07/30/15 3:14 pm

The "key" sentence here is "mentality of a 10 yr old". Why are the parents allowing her to go by herself? A 10 year old should not be allowed out to roam by themselves.

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TheGreatC Wisconsin
07/30/15 10:39 pm

I roamed when I was 10, as did my brother and my sisters...

MorKurt Oregon
07/30/15 1:12 pm

I say shame on the parents, shouldnt they at have someone to chaperone her?

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Wino I need a drink
07/30/15 11:13 am

Depends. Does she have the legal right to make decisions on her own or did the courts give the parents that legal right given her inability to completely understand consequences?

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burdman Nowhere
07/30/15 2:23 am

It's the parents' fault for letting her go out alone in the first place. If they don't want her to get into a bad situation, they should have watched her more carefully.

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PartyFree Nowhere in Particular
07/29/15 5:31 pm

"Obviously challenged" is what determines this for me. As far as I know, a person has to knowingly consent to a tattoo, which is why tattoos cannot be given to drunk people. The same should apply to those with diminished mental capacity.

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sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:09 am

This is my daughter (except for the tattoo). She is a mentally disabled adult of 22. She is not capable of always understanding the results of her choices based on seemingly (to us) simple and normal desires and decisions. That is why before she...

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:11 am

...turned 18, we became her legal guardians (a sobering process) which removed her right to make those & other contract/agreement decisions without our consent. Credit cards, leases/rent, contracts all have to go through us. Paying for a face tattoo

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:13 am

...falls within that restriction. Unfortunate that the Tattoo can't be easily removed, I want the money back and will take to court for additional damages. If possible to remove, they will pay for that as well. The mentally disabled have rights.

Nik
07/30/15 7:38 am

I was in the same situation with my brother, mentally 7-10 yr old. He lived with me until he passed last year (@30yrs). People are horrible, taking advantage...
I get so upset all these comments, people that have not been there don't understand
:-(

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:42 am

So very sad for your loss. I cannot imagine our lives without my daughter & all the wonderful times, frustrating challenges & the enrichment she brings to our lives! I sense most of the commenters here have not walked the walk.

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:43 am

I pray all the great memories you have of your brother bring joy and peace to your life.

Nik
07/30/15 11:41 am

Thank you SD, I miss him every day. It was hard like losing a brother, son and friend all at the same time.

PartyFree Nowhere in Particular
07/30/15 11:57 am

SD and Nik, y'all are wonderful and I wish everyone with special needs had people in their lives who look out for them. I'm a special ed teacher, and my first thought with this scenario was of some of my students who will face this later in life.

catpillow Florida West Coast
07/30/15 9:17 pm

PartyFree, I agree 100%

RepMorris Pennsylvania
07/29/15 4:59 pm

Let the representatives of the people of their state choose how to handle situations like that.

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sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:45 am

It's not their decision. Laws already exist to protect the mentally disabled. Especially if they are wards of a guardian.

lcamino Florida and Georgia
07/29/15 3:30 pm

Yes, because you said that she was obviously challenged. He took advantage of her mental deficiency.

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singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 3:42 pm

So mentally challenged adults shouldn't be allowed to get tattoos?

lcamino Florida and Georgia
07/29/15 4:01 pm

If a 10 year old is not considered competent to make that decision, then someone with the mental capacity of a 10 year old is also not able to make that decision.

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 4:07 pm

So your saying the mentally impaired can't have the same rights as other adults. A 10 year old can't get married but a mentally handicapped person can. So where's the logic?

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 4:11 pm

A 10 year old can't legally drive but a mentally handicap adult can as long as they pass the test....

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:16 am

The mentally disabled need a clear thinking capable adult to make or assist in making life decisions. It is a process, but they are capable. My daughter can safely walk to the corner store and purchase drinks and snacks and get home. But we had to

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:18 am

...go with her the first 10 times, then watch anonymously from a distance before we let her do it alone. Driving? No way. Public transportation? Maybe, in time.

lcamino Florida and Georgia
07/30/15 8:47 am

I don't think that their rights outweigh concerns for their own safety, as well as that of others. There are a reason that 10 year olds cannot get a driver's license. This has to do with brain development, ability to make judgements, and to reason.

singkitty In the cloud
07/30/15 5:11 pm

The ultimate question how on earth is any of this the responsibility of the tattoo artist? It's not always easy to judge the exact level of a person's mental abilities. For all they knew this person is capable of making this choice.

lcamino Florida and Georgia
07/30/15 5:24 pm

It is the tattoo artist's responsibility because the mental impairment was obvious.To permanently tattoo a turtle on the face of a mentally challenged person is immoral.How sick to make her life even more difficult, for the "artist's" selfish reason.

singkitty In the cloud
07/30/15 6:46 pm

The tattooist in this hypothetical scenario has a service they provide. She went to them and requested said services. It's her caretakers responsibility to know where she's at and what she's doing period.

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:00 pm

That's true. But the face is far from an "ordinary" place to apply a tattoo. Some level of discretion by the artist would be in order. 24 hour waiting period, you can't do this alone - bring a family member, are you sure you want to do this would be

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:01 pm

appropriate comments in this situation.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/30/15 7:34 pm

Would anyone that asks for a face tattoo be demonstrating a lack of judgement?

Korosensei Maine
07/29/15 11:22 am

It depends but I'd say yes if she is obviously handicapped then yes if she is able to mask it pretty well then no

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Korosensei Maine
07/29/15 3:24 pm

But the person does have to be 18 and that's because 18 year old are assumed to have the decision making skills to handle that kind of decision while a 10 year old does not

Korosensei Maine
07/29/15 3:37 pm

A mentally handicapped person cannot consent or have alcohol so yeah they can't get a tattoo

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 4:06 pm

They can legally drive, and get married...I don't know of any laws where it's illegal to serve them alcohol....why can they get married but not get ink?

Korosensei Maine
07/29/15 4:32 pm

The mentally handicapped can do that but the mentally handicapped covers a broad range of people

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 6:56 pm

If this person has been deemed capable of walking around alone with money then clearly their caretakers think they can handle the responsibility.

Korosensei Maine
07/30/15 2:04 am

If your 10 year old got a tattoo would you be pissed at the artist?

singkitty In the cloud
07/30/15 4:03 am

My 10 year old doesn't have a valid ID stating they are 18 or older nor would they have that kind of money on them...

Korosensei Maine
07/30/15 5:30 am

But let's say the artist didn't care that he had no idea and he had saved up $100

lcamino Florida and Georgia
07/30/15 9:03 am

It is not discrimination. It is protecting people who are not capable of critical judgement making, or of determining consequences of their actions. The protection is from people who would take advantage of them, and from their own limitations.

singkitty In the cloud
07/30/15 3:12 pm

If the tattoo artist didn't care about a 10 yr olds lack of ID they'd lose their license. However this individual was of age and had proof. Why should the tattoo artist be responsible for the care takers job?

lcamino Florida and Georgia
07/30/15 3:23 pm

Because they are a decent human being who does not take advantage of someone with an obvious mental handicap???

singkitty In the cloud
07/30/15 3:27 pm

Furthermore if this individual is functioning enough to walk around town alone then they and their care takers have to take some responsibility.

Nik
07/29/15 11:15 am

I'm having a real problem here, some of these comments, I don't know... In a so called Christian society shouldn't we watch out for those that need help/looking after. If you see a blind person about to step into traffic would you all just blame the

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Nik
07/29/15 11:17 am

parents? If you see a lost kid do you just walk the other way? We should care and take care of our brothers and sisters.

I shake my head in disgust!

lcamino Florida and Georgia
07/29/15 3:54 pm

I agree. I don't know if it is illegal to give the tattoo or not, but I believe that it immoral .

MrMilkdud
07/29/15 11:09 am

Was this poll inspired by Patton Oswalt's TED talk about the teenage mutant ninja turtles?

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JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 11:22 am

It was literally a coin toss between dove on the neck and turtle on the face

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 11:04 am

She shouldn't be wandering alone with money if her care takers don't think she can handle herself. It is not the job of the tattoo artist to determine a clients IQ.

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Akademiks Colorado
07/29/15 11:16 am

Same situation but she walks in drooling with bib, diaper, childish Barbie doll, and helmet on. As the tattoo artist would you accept the client.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 3:19 pm

Had the question lined about that, which way we would vote on discrimination if she was refused. But it was looking like the vast majority is voting no

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 3:22 pm

Omg record the date and time Chimama and I agree for once. If the person was capable of reading and signing the consent forms I would.

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:22 am

If the mentally disabled girl is the ward of a Legal Guardian, by law she is incapable of signing a binding agreement with out the consent of the guardian. We are in this situation with our daughter (22) and I would definitely exercise our rights

sdbrev210 The Pursuit of Happiness
07/30/15 7:23 am

...to get a refund, and sue him to pay for the removal, and punitive damages.

singkitty In the cloud
07/30/15 3:35 pm

So what you're saying is that care takers have ZERO responsibility here. Where were they when she was getting tatted up? Why do they allow her to carry such large sums of money? Seems pretty irresponsible on their end.

floridalax
07/29/15 10:03 am

I'm pretty sure drunk people get tattoos all the time too so

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SoHFloridian NYC
07/29/15 11:01 am

Any self respecting tattoo shop refuses to tattoo drunks.

pd10ro94 Washington
07/29/15 6:51 pm

Considering how many drunk tattoos actually get made, I'd say there are not very many "self-respecting" tattoos artists. Business is business, so it's not really fair to question someone's livelihood

Sting716 Libertarian Golden Flash
07/29/15 10:02 am

Amy's case worker would be all over the parents for letting her wander free. I know this is hypothetical, but those parents are fucking morons hahaha

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Nik
07/29/15 11:19 am

And what if she doesn't have a case worker?

PeppyHare Do a barrel roll
07/29/15 9:45 am

I'm sure there are a significant number of retarded or near retarded people getting tattoos on a regular basis. They're also having kids, driving cars, getting married, and getting arrested. It's not the tattoo artists job to worry about this.

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PeppyHare Do a barrel roll
07/29/15 9:47 am

If anything perhaps there should be a tattoo waiting period implemented where you would have to express interest in getting a tattoo, state a planned location, and then have to wait at least 24 hours or maybe a week to get it.

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 11:08 am

I think a waiting period would be insane. A valid ID and a signed consent form stating you're not under the influence of drugs or alcohol is what's required in my state and personally I think that's enough.

Nik
07/29/15 9:28 am

Here kid, I'll give you this nickel for that dime, the nickel is bigger...

So that's ok also?

Happened to my handicapped brother, I kicked some ass for that one.

I think the tattoo artist stopped caring when he saw the money and should pay!

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CudOfCow Oregon
07/29/15 10:19 am

For starters, she went to him asking for the nickel. He wasn't preying on her or trying to trick her, and he is not responsible for others stupid decisions. Just as a liquor store is not responsible for drunk drivers, the artist is not responsible.

CudOfCow Oregon
07/29/15 10:20 am

Hopefully she likes turtles.

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 11:10 am

It's not the job of the tattoo artist to determine who is intelligent enough to get a tattoo and who isn't. It's the care takers fault if anyone's.

Nik
07/29/15 11:35 am

The tattoo artist took advantage of the girl, where is the outrage to that?
It was stated that she was obviously impaired.

singkitty In the cloud
07/29/15 3:18 pm

She's legally an adult. Adults can get tattoos. If her care takers have issue with this then they need to do their job and watch her.

alkie New York
07/29/15 8:49 am

What's with these questions? Are they true or just hypothetical?

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TierasPet
07/29/15 9:07 am

Hypothetical.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 9:15 am

Sorry, all hypothetical, I use to put that but it ate up too many characters

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:48 am

Lochnessmonster, "If there is a obvious sign that she was mentally challenged then yes he should have to pay." I'm questioning the statement that you made. Tattoos are not cheap she had the money to pay for it, you'd be less likely to question it.😈

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
07/29/15 8:46 am

Why? She had ID and cash. I'm willing to bet she could legally have had a few beers in the local tavern while she was out too, for the same reasons. The law isn't what "age" we think someone might be, mentally, it's what age they are.

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iMatter2 I Used to Love H.E.R.
07/29/15 8:37 am

Why is she going anywhere unaccompanied?

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cclarke26
07/29/15 8:37 am

Exactly what I was going to say

ronderman North Carolina
07/29/15 9:41 am

Exactly. My 10 year old isn't ever anywhere this could happen, nor would I trust him with more than 20.00 at any one time. Negligence of the parents/ guardians if you ask me.

nnifer Alpha Quadrant
07/29/15 8:30 am

There are a lot of stupid people running around. "Retarded" is based on IQ number. A tattoo artist should not be responsible for performing IQ tests.

She had ID and cash. She has every right to make a bad decision.

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rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:42 am

Retarded, you mean mentally handicapped. Retarded is somebody who listens to MS NBC or Fox

nnifer Alpha Quadrant
07/29/15 8:46 am

The actual PC term is " functioning in the moderate range of intellectual disability" or "developmentally disabled."

In terms of which news you follow, if you believe any of the news sources, your judgement is questionable.

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:29 am

Justbob, "How old is old enough to go to the park without a parent?" There may not be any age limit on somebody who's mentally handicapped. Her parents are responsible for her well-being. Their lack of oversight should be considered in this matter😈

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rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:24 am

Nemacyst, Hear, Hear, great point. Where is the responsibility of the parent in this matter.

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badattitude no place like home
07/29/15 8:15 am

You can't contract with a retarded person, a drunk person or a child. And a service for money is an implied contract. The case becomes, would a reasonable person know that she was retarded? Sue for the price of laser tattoo removal. It's expensive.

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
07/29/15 8:38 am

This user is currently being ignored

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:44 am

Retarded, you mean mentally handicapped. Retarded is somebody who listens to MS NBC or Fox😈😎

TierasPet
07/29/15 9:09 am

Breck is right. The artist knew or should have known that she did not have the capacity to consent to something like that. Given that, it's an intentional tort.

badattitude no place like home
07/29/15 9:17 am

Sorry for not being PC statesman. I'm old. My business law class books stated it that way. They may still say that. I have to catch myself. I still want to use old terms like negro. No harm intended. It was PC then.

TierasPet
07/29/15 10:35 am

I'm sorry. I was not trying to correct you at all. I'm just going based on what I've read recently and I'm not even starting law school until September so I'm sure you know much more than I do.

badattitude no place like home
07/29/15 10:43 am

No Tierra. That was for statesman. Have fun in law school. My degree is in aviation management. The business law class was one of the best classes I ever had. It should be required for everyone in high school before you turn 18.

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 11:05 am

Breck1011, I agree on the business law class. We had 2 different one I high school. Learn a lot, most useful classes from high school. Our degree is in aviation management. Did you go to UND for it?

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 11:10 am

Breck1011, I too use to use retarded but my wife is a special Ed teacher and my son is a Special Ed teacher for artistic middle- high school teacher. So I got corrected a lot and still do from time to time. πŸ˜ŽπŸ˜‡

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 7:47 am

If there is a obvious sign that she was mentally challenged then yes he should have to pay.

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LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 7:47 am

It would be the same as giving a tattoo to a minor.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
07/29/15 8:06 am

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LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 8:07 am

Exactly nemy. She should have constant supervision.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
07/29/15 8:10 am

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JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 8:10 am

How old is old enough to go to the park without a parent?

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 8:14 am

15-16 years old for me. And the artist should have to pay knowing she was mentality challenged. The 22year old girl was still considered a minor by doctors.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 8:20 am

Holy moly, I can just picture all the crap a 14 year old would receive for not being able to go to the park without a parent. I'm so glad I didn't have to go through that.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 8:21 am

"Sorry guys, I can't go without my mom" poor kid

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 8:24 am

What about a 12 year old? Would you let your 12-13 year old daughter go to the park alone? Even a 14 year old daughter? At least by 15-16 they will have a better understanding of what to watch out for for their safety and well being.

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 8:25 am

I don't know of many 12-14 year old kids with enough sence to not get into trouble or not pay attention to their surroundings to be left alone at a park or a movie theater or mall.

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 8:26 am

It wouldn't have to be me going. As long as there's adult supervision by one of the parents or my child or the other children my child is going with.

JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 8:30 am

Of course I would let the kid go, in fact, I do now. And whenever I drive by the park, I see all their friends and not one parent

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:30 am

Nemacyst, Hear, Hear, great point. Where is the responsibility of the parent in this matter.

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:31 am

Justbob, "How old is old enough to go to the park without a parent?" There may not be any age limit on somebody who's mentally handicapped. Her parents are responsible for her well-being. Their lack of oversight should be considered in this matter😈

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 8:34 am

That's my point exactly. I am responsible for my children and if I'm not there or making sure another parent is there how am I being responsible and making sure my child is safe? Doing that is called child endangerment.

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:38 am

Justbob,"Of course I would let the kid go, in fact, I do now. And whenever I drive by the park, I see all their friends and not one parent." Are all these kids mentally handicapped? Justbob, I think you are missing that point, mentally handicapped.😈

rstatesmen2 equally unfair to ALL
07/29/15 8:48 am

Lochnessmonster, "If there is a obvious sign that she was mentally challenged then yes he should have to pay." I'm questioning the statement that you made. Tattoos are not cheap she had the money to pay for it, you'd be less likely to question it.😈

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 8:52 am

What if she went though her parent purse and wallet and stole the money from them? And no its almost always obvious if someone is challenged. And in the question she was obviously challenged and the artist knew it.

ronderman North Carolina
07/29/15 9:44 am

The other issue is the money. I can see an argument for allowing a 10 yo to go to the park with limited supervision, but who gives a 10yo enough cash for a tattoo?

LochnessMonster Milky way
07/29/15 9:51 am

I've seen people give tattoos for as little as 20$. You get what you pay for.

ronderman North Carolina
07/29/15 10:23 am

I will readily admit that I have very limited experience with anything tattoo related. I defer to the Lochness.

jrpacman Pensum iocus est
07/29/15 7:42 am

I mean, he didn't know. How could he know? Sometimes it isn't always obvious. But I'm sure there are people who get tattoos without parental consent all the time. There must be a precedent for this.

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JustBob Your anger fascinates me
07/29/15 7:45 am

I tried to make it clear that he did know that she was mentally challenged.

jrpacman Pensum iocus est
07/29/15 7:46 am

Ok. Hmm... I guess I would still say it's the parents' responsibility for leaving her alone and not checking on her.

DuckAndCower
07/29/15 8:20 am

"Sometimes it isn't always obvious."

The poll actually says it is obvious in this case.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
07/29/15 8:39 am

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