Show of Hands

True that

The Canadians aren't the ones who's country is run by the drug cartels.

Apparently u do not read the news plenty of drugs from Canada, plus human trafficking too , you can't have it both ways when it's against the law.

Canadians don't come here illegally and take jobs (Canadians make more money) have you not seen what the cartel can do. I've seen videos of them killing whole families of snitches, not just killing em chopping them to pieces with not care. Fucked up

No wall will totally stop desperate people , they will still find their way here , we are so focused on Mexico only and we will go deeper in debt with a symbolic wall which is being used as campaign fodder and probably will never be built

Regarding cartels, we have plenty of red blooded Americans equally as vicious and we pay little regard to them. Our streets and schools are a cesspool of drugs and crime. May a wall around bad neighborhoods here will be our next great idea

How can illegals get entitlements without the required paperwork?

How can one steal a job? The blame for giving illegals jobs falls on us( Americans).

And employers caught paying illegals below minimum wage should have to pay restitution of all the back wages the law would have required, then make them pay an equal amount in punitive damages.

Please tell me how people would get over. They wouldn't if it's stone

Thank your for this informative and well-thought-out comment you made

It dosent have to be long to prove a point. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the Libertarians on this app who need to rethink their views for the large percentage that voted yes.

Oh!! I understand what you're doing now. I thought you were just saying the word. I didn't pay attention to the quotation marks. But yeah, I'm libertarian and I voted no wall. Walls do not promote freedom nor equality

Oh ok lol. Glad we got that cleared up

Great point! That's not part of Libertarian principle! Oh, and I like your username :)

I am extremely surprised by the libertarian results. I'd like to hear the reasoning from ones who said yes.

Walls that divide and separate only drive us to tear them down eventually. Why waste our time putting it up in the first place?

Illegal immigrants actually are statistically less likely to commit crimes. Most attribute this to them not wanting to be deported. So most likely if he is shot, it's by some crazy person who already lives here.

Do you have those stats for the 11 to 20 plus illegal aliens in this country? Do you have the per capita numbers?

Here is a study done at Oxford.

socpro.oxfordjournals.org/content/socpro/46/4/617.full.pdf

The link didn't load, but that's ok. The question was rhetorical. The answer should always be 0. Illegal aliens break U.S. law when the enter into this country illegally. Then when a crime is committed, it is an insult to injury.

If you can get a better link, I would be interested to see if they have a per capita chart. Of the 319 million people in the U.S., does that include or not include the illegal aliens living amongst the citizens?

What percent of the population is illegal? And from that, what are the per capita numbers so we can see a true break down of crimes committed. That's what I want to see. An unbiased look at the numbers not coated in liberal or conservative bias.

I'm saying that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit violent crimes or anything that immediately affects others (i.e. Not illegally immigrating)

and sure. I had a list of viable links

11 to 20 plus million illegal aliens*

Crime is crime, that's the problem. The links you provide must have the per capita or the numbers are not relevant or representative of the general legal or illegal population. It's 319 to 20 million. Of course they won't even out.

None of the other links are as reputable as Oxford and I'm not sure they give statistics so could you copy and paste the link into your internet provider's search bar please?

And if you're asking whether the data is based on total amounts or percentage-based amounts, it's the latter.

Also, thank you for being a reasonable human being that looks for evidence, not blind dispute

The break down of this issue has many facets. When I crime happens, when a crime is committed to a legal citizen? What about just a fender bender? In terms of legalities, there are many issues. I'll try the link on the PC to see if it works there.

If you start assigning state rights to individuals who are not part of the state, you are creating a sub-class. This is unfair to the illegal immigrant and unfair to those who went through the legal channels.

Thank you for your cooperation. Make sure to click on "view PDF"

The sub-class can be exploited and mistreated. What about the socioeconomic impact? How about human rights violations? How about responsibilities of the state to protect its citizens? There are many issues involved than strictly crime.

There should only be three classes: citizens, those legally immigrating, or those visiting with passports from other nations.

Aside from all this, I understand the plight of many of those that take the risk, but this is a republic. A republics governed by laws that makes the richest equal to the poorest. We're all bound by laws, and those outside the law should not be there

I was just informing the one who posted the comment that illegal immigrants are less likely than average citizens to commit a violent crime since he/she was convinced an illegal immigrant would kill Donald trump.

And I may have misinterpreted what you said. Are you saying that legal immigrants are separate from other citizens and are a lower class?

This is my understanding. I'm not for amnesty because people need to learn the customs of the nation they call home. I am for a program to allow a chance for citizenship that requires the learning of history, language, and philosophy of the U.S.

I agree that immigrants should be legal, I just believe we should allow in our country more legal immigrants so that people do t feel it necessary to come illegally.

I am saying that when not a citizen, one is not part of the state or legal system. Therefore, they become a separate sub-class which is not good.

I very much like your idea

True, our nation was built on immigration, and immigration is a very important aspect of this nation. I feel it may be harder now due to the majority of the U.S. Population living cities. Jobs would need to be in other places than just metropolises.

Uhh is that an argument for or not for.

Yes, awkward ism feels that this is an awkward statement given that it has no conclusion

It was very effective at keeping people out. However, it was not the best relationship building tool of diplomacy.

Why don't you open your house to anyone who wants to come in and you feed, clothe and support them at no cost as long as they want to stay.
This is my country and I'm damn tired of people coming here to ride the gravy train at my expense.

We have created that problem, by our protectionist actions. The more protectionist measures, the greater flow of illegals. Moving toward an economy that would allow for open borders, would eliminate the incentive for those illegals.

A: how does making it easier for someone to cross the border make them less likely to?
B: we need to move away from giving illegal immigrants free healthcare until they become taxpayers and pay their share for it.

But in the long-run immigrants founded this nation. And open borders make for better relations which I believe is more important than keeping anyone out

You are correct. The economic incentives are a tremendous magnet. First World countries segregate themselves and protect their standard of living by suppressing free market competition. Therefore, the oppressed will flow to the economic magnet.

No. We control the border and allow specific number people in who will become Americans and support the economy. This is what made this country the greatest nation on earth and why so many want to come here in the first place.

This does not rule out helping those less fortunate. Foreign aid.

If we have more people, we will be able to produce more which means a stronger economy. We are a nation of immigrants. The history of our success is founded on the people that come here legally or not.

This country is great because of those who leave their bad situation, to start a new life here. Our current immigration policy has stopped this, however because it favors those who are already wealthy. Illegal immigration may be their only option.

Foreign aid is good at first until prices adjust by inflating and then everything is back to he way it used to be.

Actually it's quite simple. We can not support the entire world. Orderly production is necessary for a nation to be successful. Larger numbers of people is not the answer. People must produce. Each chooses his own occupation.

Yes. And as more people can produce, more stuff is produced. More stuff being produced makes for more economic power and clout. This makes us more influential which, in turn, helps us economically.

There was little regulation of immigration until the early part of the 20th Century. Our 'benevolent' Progressives passed laws to limit new competitors for the labor market. Prior to this, those who wanted to enter the country. This allowed cheap...

labor and cheap goods and services. From the early 20th Century, Progressives have passed laws to limit labor competition. Supposedly, improving our standard of living. Rather, creating economic gaps in standards of living which is an incentive to...

And open borders make for better relations ... Paraguas (from comment above)

Let's open the borders to ISIS and all Muslim groups.

illegal labor markets. Therefore, we have created a fairly permanent sub-underclass of people in the U.S. The new slave class. We must reverse these policies, thus working toward an environment conducive with an open border.

Progressives are Liberals right?

Si!

Advil, do you really equate Mexico to ISIS? These are not terrorists who wish to kill us coming in, they are people who want a better life. When we closed borders with Canada it greatly worsened relations from 98% approval of us, to 90%.

Liberals are people who want liberty. Progressives are people who want change. The two often go together, but they are not exactly the same.

Liberals want their definition of liberty. This involves surrendering rights and privileges in exchange for a government promise of an easier life. A canard.

Yep! That is why I don't personally identify as a liberal.

Mexico is not ISIS but there is a lot stuff in Mexico we don't want - drug trade ,and they are moving into the U.S. Muslim terrorist are coming through Mexico. You want to open borders to all. That includes all terrorist.

Open borders with those whom we deem "friendly". And under the conditions that they also keep out terrorists. And I hope you realize that Muslim terrorists and supporters make up a tiny minority of the Muslim population.

And we are so incredibly safe now that we are more likely to be blown up by a U.S. Citizen than Muslim extremist.

Someone suggested that there should be a guard for every 1,000 ft. Is that your idea too?

How is it ethically offensive to guard/protect our border?

Because we are basically telling Mexico "stay out, we don't want your people". It's a bold and offensive statement.

youtu.be/iAgiK07Py9M

No. It's saying we will protect and defend our borders. That we will protect our lands from criminals.

If someone singled you out and said "I need to protect my children from you", would you think "well alright, children need protection", or would you be offended? I would be the latter which is why I view the wall as a bold and offensive statement.

I am not trying to move into their house or their room.
Do you know what the penalty is for entering Mexico illegally? Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by 2 years' imprisonment. We give them health care and welfare

THAT is something we should change. I personally believe that only taxpayers should be allowed the benefits of what they're paying for.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just asking you to put this into a different perspective. Whether you would feel offended being singled out like that.

Or if you believe enhanced protection is paramount to friendly relations

Good fences make good neighbors.

What would you do...draw a line between the US and Mexico and expect people not to cross it illegally? Hasn't worked all that well thus far

more people does not mean less jobs. Increased population always helps growth because the the economy is based on what people produce and more people means more production. So I don't believe we need to keep them out.

Fences are only ever put up by shitty, self-centered neighbors who don't understand the first fucking principle of "neighborhood."

But I'd, of course, prefer them to be legal immigrants. So more so I would like it to be easier for people on our borders to legally immigrate. But I could be wrong. So keep believing as you do. Don't let me sway your judgment.

Also, please no profanity, friendly debates are easier without anything getting personal

Profanity isn't personal. It's colloquial.

Still, it's more offensive than constructive. Any point made with profanity is seen as less impartial

How on earth is profanity offensive?

Never mind we're getting off topic. Sorry I said anything

No arcto fences are put up for a variety of reasons. For instance I have a pool in my backyard...I have a fence to keep people out to protect them from drowning and me from getting sued

Fences are made to keep people out from where they don't belong

And if they have not been allowed in the country legally then they don't belong.

I am not anti immigration,I am anti illegal immigration.

Fences do have a purpose, but a project of this magnitude sends a statement much bigger than your pool's fence.

Now, we have each stated our opinion, I respect yours. I hope you can respect mine. I'm going to sleep.

Yes it does. It says keep out unless you are allowed in. That is the difference between legal immigration and ILLEGAL immigration.

Legal immigrants are welcomed....illegal immigrants are not. We have enough criminals, we don't need any more.

Illegal immigrants actually are statistically less likely to commit crimes. Most attribute this to them not wanting to be deported which happens if they break the law and are caught.

Illegal immigrants by definition are criminals. You can spin it whichever way you like but they made a deliberate and conscience decision to disobey our laws and come into this country illegally. In other words, THEY ARE CRIMINALS.

Oh I'm sorry, i was talking about violent crime. Or anything that immidiately affects others.

What makes you think we're welcome on this land? Why draw the distinction at Mexicans (apparently the catch-all term for Spanish speaking brown people)?

By circumventing the process of entering the country legally they are affecting others. People who spent money to come legally. Providing a drain on limited resources. And that's not even talking about the ones incarcerated for other crimes.

arcto, Mexico was most likely mentioned because it seems that is where most illegals cross into the US from

May I present to you a study done at Oxford

socpro.oxfordjournals.org/content/socpro/46/4/617.full.pdf

There aren't enough illegal immigrants to possibly drain us of our resources. Especially not within our lifetimes.

Yeah, no one said every Spanish speaking person is mexican. Mexicans are most likely to illegally immigrate here because we share a land border and the economic situation there is worse than here.

Ya know PP that may be true but irrelevant. Every dollar spent because of an illegal immigrant is a tax dollar wasted. Money that could be put to better uses, such as paying down our debt...or money taken from a taxpayer that need not have been taken

Of course no one here said it, but it's implied everyday by the morons and buffoons who parade around on national media with their nonsense idea of a fence along the border.

arcto what's your solution? Just open the borders and let everyone cross into the US at will? Thousands daily coming, good hard working people just trying to find a better life...as well as hard core drug dealers...and like as not some terrorists?

1) why do we need a solution when there is no problem?
2) if you want to take power out of the hands of criminal drug dealers, legalize drugs.
3) the threat of terrorism to Americans is far greater coming from within the country than without.

4) fundamentalist, bronze-age-worshipping terrorism can't be stopped by walls and bombs; it can only be stopped by improved economic conditions, education, and modern social and cultural assimilation for those individuals likely to be drawn to it.

No problem? Billions spent on feeding and housing illegals. Even more spent on schooling them. Not teaching our kids as well because you have to slow down the class so Pedro can keep up because his English sucks or because he never went to school b4

Legalizing drugs will only create more drug users...and when they can't work because they are too strung out who is going to pay for their drugs or treatments?

So because we have terrorists being created here we should just make it easier to import more? What about importing the tools of terror? Not worried about more guns being brought in but I do worry about other devices. Open the door for them? Hell no

No, I don't consider it a problem when our government spends tax dollars to invest in the development of our society in the form of helping feed, house, and educate those who need it most.
Your blithering dribble about drug legalization is not borne

out by any real world evidence. Though one of the biggest problems with how certain states have legalized marijuana currently is that drug cartels are purchasing farmland to grow within those states, we can deal with that through stricter production

regulations.
My comment on terrorism was to illustrate that it's a bogeyman for neo-cons, and like children afraid of bogeymen, the only solution they seem come up with is to hide under their covers. You can't strong-arm terrorism out of existence.

If you genuinely want to do something about terrorism, both foreign and domestic, you need to actually do things that reduce people's inclination towards terrorism, and come up with a better solution than just getting thicker covers- er...walls.

Really? I could open a newspaper from almost any major city such as NYC or philly and usually find at least one story about someone getting robbed and later when the perp is caught he admits he stole to buy drugs.

You want to stop terrorism? Hunt down and kill the terrorists. Either that or do what they want. In the case of Islamic jihadists have the entire world convert to Islam. Yeah, no thanks

Correct. You have identified one of the negative consequences of drugs being illegal. Tell me, how many stories have you found from Colorado of people robbing homes to buy legal marijuana?

We've been hunting down and killing terrorists for decades, and now the world has no terrorism, right?

Pot is a poor example...I consider that as dangerous as beer and should be just as easy to aquire. I am talking about hard core drugs such as herion and crack.

So we should just give up and stop trying to prevent terrorist attacks?

Tell me: what stopped lynchings (i.e. white terrorism against blacks) in the South? Hunting down and killing all involved, or widespread education coupled with political, social, and cultural changes?
What stopped the IRA and the Troubles?

Users of "hardcore" drugs won't have to resort to crime to get their fix if their fix can be easily - and more cheaply - obtained legally. Is that confusing to you?

Yes. Absolutely. The Canadians are known for trying to escape into our country (sarcasm).

It's not the same as the south but it's deadly and real.

www.usimmigration.com/illegal-immigrants-through-canada.html

-before being deported. If an illegal is caught committing a crime punishable by inprisonment, they should serve the maximum sentence in solitary plus two months before being deported. If an illegal who was already deported with committing a crime-

-is caught in the United States again, they should serve life in prison with the possibility of being sent back to Mexico after serving their original sentence twice.

Should they not be treated like a human being? Is entering the U.S. undocumented that horrendous a crime to you? Should they be treated the same as murderers?

You throw out solitary confinement like its nothing, but I want you to know that a lack of contact with others leads to severe repercussions in their health.

Your acting as if these people deserve the worst punishment possible for crossing an imaginary line.

If they are caught smuggling drugs and guns across our border, yes, they should be treated like murderers, because that's essentially what they are.

And if someone we've thrown out of the country once comes right back, then yes, they definitely deserve something more sever.

Every punishment I've listed is for criminals and repeat offenders. If you sneak into America with the intent of worsening our country with an act that would even lead to severe punishment if a citizen did it, you deserve what I listed.

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The funny thing about this is the project was fully funded years back and since the walls construction has been ceasing to a halt that money is just being spent on other border control methods. Do your research

Fully funded by who? Taxpayers?

It's cheaper to put more agents on the border

now now - no fair bringing sense and logic into a SoH poll topic.

But I wouldn't stop with a mere wall. We need to militarize the border. Land mines, interlocking sectors of machine gun fire, a platoon of tanks at every road crossing, the whole nine yards. We don't need more border patrolmen. We need the Army.

Now THAT would be a black hole for money. We arn't Germany during the could war

Certainly would be effective if not over the top..I'd settle for a relatively low cost wall then install automated machine guns on towers throughout..save money in the long run

It's opportunity that most come for, not your claim of benefits.

Yeah screw the whole "land of opportunity" thing about America let's make it as xenophobic as North Korea.

Wow!!! Really??? I'm not sure what to say, except, Holy cow. Now I understand how we keep electing such bad people into office. People who think like you do. Unbelievable.

I'm so sorry that different political ideologies exist in America! If your going to making a stupid opinion, at least give me some support on why we should build this wall!

Land mines? Are you serious?

Absolutely. Why not? What? You think a fence is going to stop people? If it was up to me the fence would be electrified and as unscalable as possible...and I would keep the land mines to make it as inaccessible as possible.

What sort of morals do you have where you think it's a good idea to kill people to dissuade them from entering our country? Geez! You're like the soviets in reverse. Sickening.

Actually I am not killing anyone. I am all for putting up a strong barrier...if folks ignore the warnings and get themselves killed that's on them.

remember - these are the same people that will turn right around and all you a communist in the next poll.

pyro - cost of this? exorbitant. ROI? people will get around it. this is sick. really.

Whatever you say to make yourself feel better…

The cost will be damn near astronomical, but that's simply the beginning. Then we have to spend even more money and deport all of those here illegally. The money we save from deporting all of the illegals will be far less over time than the barriers

Trust me losttexan...I would feel just fine.

Funny tho, you seem to be one of the few liberals in Texas while I am one of the few fiscal conservatives around here.

A) I'm not in Texas, I'm in Iowa… thus the lost part.

B) I'm right in the libertarian/centrist sectors of most political compass tests I've taken.

C) If not wanting to litter our border with one of the most dastardly weapons around, a weapon that most of the civilized world has banned, makes me a liberal… so be it.

It's not littering our borders, it's protecting them. And I quite frankly I don't much care what other countries do. Some of them allow female genital mutilation, some of them permit sharia law, some of them don't allow free speach.

And it's a very selective weapon...only those that choose to ignore the warnings put themselves at risk.

If it's protecting our borders, are you going to put them up north too?

Along our coasts?

You do realize he has "sadist" in his name, right? He derives enjoyment from cruelty and the suffering of others.

Actually yes, I beleive our northern border is just as insecure as our southern one...the difference is right now the illegals are (mostly) coming across our southern border.

You own a store & you see someone stealing a candy bar & you see someone else stealing a TV, but you can only stop one who do you stop? It's called prioritizing.Secure our southern border, then the northern one.The oceans will take care of the coasts

Almost correct arcto....I derive enjoyment from INFLICTING pain and suffering on others. And always consentually.

So the signs in every language can be assumed to implicate consent in behalf of those who pass them?

They chose to ignore the very real risks. It's like choosing to ride a motorcycle and then choosing to do so without a helmet. You knew the risks and you chose to ignore them. I should feel sympathy when you get yourself killed?

And for the record I don't have a motorcycle but I would love to get a trike, and I don't beleive that I should be forced to wear a helmet if I don't wish to wear one. My choice, my risk, something goes wrong...my problem

haha! "hurry it up Clark - I'm freezing my baguettes off out here..."

That will never happen. We should try to make Mexico more like Canada. That would happen faster and easier.