Show of HandsShow of Hands

Mattwall1 July 26th, 2015 4:13pm

"None of us got where we are solely by pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. We got here because somebody-a parent, a teacher, an Ivy League crony or a few nuns-bent down and helped us pick up our boots." Thurgood Marshall

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DerJlaw Minnesota
07/26/15 4:10 pm

Sure people help others along the way. But that doesn't mean the government should buy their boots, their straps, hire someone to pick them up, and then buy a net in case they fall while being picked up.

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drself Gated Community
07/26/15 3:29 pm

It was the navy that sent me down the path I'm on. With encouragement from my dad.

Liberty 4,032,064
07/26/15 2:01 pm

Perhaps that would be true if everyone (I almost said "nearly everyone;" but no, it would have to be literally everyone based on the phrasing of the poll) with parents and teachers were successful, and no one without parents and teachers were...

Liberty 4,032,064
07/26/15 2:02 pm

...successful, but that simply isn't the case.

biker4life Arizona
07/26/15 12:33 pm

Disagree. I got where I am through hard work and perseverance.

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BusinessJustin Tamriel
07/26/15 12:31 pm

The only help I got was a roof over my head until I turned 16. My parents thought college was stupid, raised 4 kids on $28k a year, and didn't even provide us a public education. I pulled myself up, period.

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Mattwall1
07/26/15 2:49 pm

Forgetting the survival of infancy, did you learn anything from a teacher? A book? A role model? Especially those things that helped you become successful? It's obvious you have a hard work ethic, and that is the main reason why you're where you

Mattwall1
07/26/15 2:49 pm

Are now. But we both know no human lives in an isolated vacuum

BusinessJustin Tamriel
07/26/15 3:17 pm

Not really, my mom pulled me out of school at a fairly young age. The only thing she did for me educationally was buy a set of Worldbook encyclopedias that I voraciously read. After sixth grade I didn't go to school until I put myself through college

Mattwall1
07/26/15 3:57 pm

Again, there's no doubt your work ethic played the greater role, but you did learn valuable information from the encyclopediae that you used to succeed in life, no?

BusinessJustin Tamriel
07/26/15 4:08 pm

One could extrapolate your argument and say that hardly any effort is truly our own since the entirety of society is built upon the billions of lives before us. I understand your point, but I respectfully disagree. Simply because other people provide

BusinessJustin Tamriel
07/26/15 4:08 pm

a book or someone stood in front of classroom doesn't mean one cannot pull themselves up of their own effort. The availability of opportunity means nothing if the person in question does nothing to seize it and put in the hard work to capitalize.

Mattwall1
07/26/15 4:11 pm

No one is denying that the willingness to seize the opportunity is important, but unless you live in an individualistic vacuum, you've been impacted by others

146787456777 .......
07/26/15 11:35 am

The inherent flaw in the bootstrap argument for me is that while it's true that dedication, ambition, hard work and all of those other good qualities by and large will aid a person greatly, they by no means guarantee success and further, those

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146787456777 .......
07/26/15 11:38 am

Qualities don't usually just manifest themselves. people often don't like to hear it, but as a general rule people are products of their environment, and the way we learn to handle situations and problems as we grow up has a significant impact on our

146787456777 .......
07/26/15 11:40 am

Adult functioning. If no one teaches you the values of hard work, dedication and ambition, it becomes more difficult to cultivate as you get older

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 11:11 am

After High School it was just expected I went looking for a job. The rest, education, jobs, family, house, cars, etc were all mine.

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Mattwall1
07/26/15 11:14 am

And that's great that you did that. But tell me, were you completely independent before high school? Did you teach yourself everything without outside help? Did you feed yourself as an infant? Or did you have teachers and a family and books?

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 11:20 am

Your stretching now. I had good parents and a great brother. But infant boot straps? I guess Ma did put on the booties. Maybe good breeding helped. You were destined to seek a future. But the same for all my peers.

Mattwall1
07/26/15 11:25 am

It's not a stretch. No one is denying you need hard work. That doesn't mean you did everything from yourself from birth to grave that effected you. You gained knowledge you would use from others, whether parents, teachers, authors, etc. We are both

Mattwall1
07/26/15 11:25 am

Here now because before we could take care of ourselves, someone made sure we were alive and well. The fact someone has drive is important. It is not all there is too it though

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 11:35 am

Where does that question infer birth to death boot strapping. Your just adding layers. Of course my family helped. But everyone's did the same. I did almost all on my own with my bride. We've been together from teenagers.

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 11:37 am

Maybe it was the morality and ethic of my family to do the right thing. No teachers, mentors, schools involved. Just the natural progression at the time.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
07/26/15 12:18 pm

Mattwall does have a valid point. Acknowledging the advantages you were given in life relative to others is in no way discounting or dismissing the effort and hard work you expended yourself.

Mattwall1
07/26/15 12:23 pm

Ron, I'm not denying you played a role in your success-you did. I'm saying your parents and teachers played a role as well, and ending that is simply egotistic

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 1:25 pm

Never was close to a teacher. Just family values and my relationship with my friends and their family. But where I grew up nobody was a slacker. Middle Class, Brooklyn neighborhood mostly Italian.

Mattwall1
07/26/15 2:47 pm

Did you teach yourself everything you know, especially with what was pertinent to your success, and do so without the help of others, whether teachers or via books or other sources of information?

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 5:40 pm

I went to school like everybody else. I found my niche and succeeded to my level of happiness. Middle Class was fine with me.

NDAmerican Florida
07/26/15 10:13 am

No matter how much help you receive, you won't succeed unless you have ambition, drive, and and hard work ethics. Yes your family and friends contribute. That's not what that phrase means.

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Mattwall1
07/26/15 10:50 am

You absolutely have to have ambition to succeed. That's not being challenged. But acting like you did everything for yourself isn't accurate just because you have ambition, unless you're some superhuman that taught themselves everything, cared for

Mattwall1
07/26/15 10:50 am

Themselves as a baby and infant, etc

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 11:23 am

What infant can pick up boots?

Mattwall1
07/26/15 11:24 am

You may not be meaning to Ron, but you're actually helping me with that

rons WOKE is sick
07/26/15 11:30 am

You could rephrase it all you like. But when you go back to suckling on momma's teat it's a little over done.

GrandmaALiCE Rocky Mtns aerial view
07/26/15 9:26 am

Mostly true, but I know of exceptions.

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Mattwall1
07/26/15 10:51 am

I'm honestly not sure there are exceptions here. The quote doesn't deny hard work and ambition are necessary, but unless they fed themselves as infants and magically knew everything they needed to succeed, at some point, they got outside help. They

Mattwall1
07/26/15 10:52 am

May have done that vast majority of the work to get them to succeed, but they can't claim to have been internal bubbles of success without any outside interference

GrandmaALiCE Rocky Mtns aerial view
07/26/15 1:11 pm

Respectfully, your example is a bit silly. That's about the fact that you can't survive to adulthood, without outside physical help. It's not about success.

Here is my example. I have a niece who had just about the worst possible home life and ...

GrandmaALiCE Rocky Mtns aerial view
07/26/15 1:18 pm

... upbringing possible. Sadly, this included sexual abuse, divorce, parental neglect and more.

All on her own, she found a way to move to Texas, far away from her toxic home. She put herself through college in Texas, eventually married and ...

GrandmaALiCE Rocky Mtns aerial view
07/26/15 1:21 pm

... raised two strong, beautiful and wonderful daughters.

She still does suffer from poor self-esteem, unfortunately, but has done a remarkable job of turning her life around.

Mattwall1
07/26/15 2:42 pm

In itself, no. The problem is many portray success as being done without ANY outside help or influence, and take insult at the mere suggestion. At that point, bringing up the necessity of others being involved, including to help one survive being an

Mattwall1
07/26/15 2:42 pm

Infant, is merely extension of the logical principle up for debate

kermie gaytopia
07/26/15 9:19 am

I don't know why this idea is so threatening to people.

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JJJSchmidt San Marcos
07/26/15 9:28 am

Because if you got what you have all by yourself you can justify being selfish.

kermie gaytopia
07/26/15 9:30 am

Yeah, maybe.

allswel Minnesota
07/26/15 9:54 am

Kerrie, I think it is because so many people view the world as a zero-sum game. If someone else gains something, that must mean I am losing something.

sea California
07/26/15 11:00 am

Because it implies that outside factors are more important than personal choices. When in reality personal choices are more important because you cannot succeed without good personal choices, even with a lot of outside help.

Rosebud Ohio
07/27/15 7:28 am

Because they don't want to acknowledge that they aren't infallible and give any indication of weakness (aka getting help or an advantage from somewhere at some point, which everyone does). It's easy to think your success means "more" if you believe

Rosebud Ohio
07/27/15 7:30 am

everyone started with a level playing field and ended up exactly where they are all on their own, and wherever they end up in life its their fault. It makes success easy to reward, and failure easier to care less about. Puts everything black & white.