Show of HandsShow of Hands

gonzoboy March 18th, 2015 7:53pm

OTL (ESPN), is reporting that Pete Rose has again petitioned for his lifetime ban from MLB be lifted. Regarding Hall of Fame induction: Should those who've bet on baseball AND/OR those who've used steroids be denied, or should ALL be allowed in?...

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Christian1459 Cookin Trouble
03/20/15 10:27 pm

Nope make a statement.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/21/15 1:11 pm

Agree... And that would be to BOTH juicers AND gambling. NO asterisks!

Christian1459 Cookin Trouble
03/21/15 1:47 pm

Exactly. Point-shaving is just ridiculous.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
03/20/15 2:04 pm

It's Hall of Fame, not Hall of Famous Cheaters. Cheating is a choice. It should have at least some consequence. A lifetime ban seems very reasonable.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 3:36 pm

If I interpret your thoughts here as permanently disallowing entrance to the HoF, to include both juicers AND gamblers, then Zod, I COMPLETELY AGREE. The only thing I've been asking for, is consistency. Not asterisks for some, denial for others...

Zod Above Pugetropolis
03/20/15 3:51 pm

Yes, for both. No asterisks, just no admittance.

SticksandStones Stop fearmongering
03/20/15 5:44 am

Betting on your own team wouldn't affect any outcomes like steroids could. Might make you work harder in anything.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 7:09 am

S&S, I agree. Even a manager could only make VERY limited moves. That manager would have to convince assistants, players, subs, pitchers, bull pen, to participate in a scheme that would really benefit no one but the bettor! Seems SO unlikely...

robclark89 Utah
03/20/15 1:35 am

Gambling on the game, while wrong, in no way enhanced his performance of the game. He should be let in. But those that used steroids, their game was artificially enhanced. Thus, their performance was not their own. They should not get in.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 5:00 am

I'm led this same direction, rob. With juicers, we're not talking an individual game here, or weekend series there, as is more associated with gambling. Juicers affected EVERY game, ENTIRE seasons, FOR YEARS, yet they get the benefit of an "*"...

TheIndian Virgo Supercluster
03/19/15 9:35 pm

No cheaters, but gambling isn't cheating

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 4:44 am

I understand your point, Indian. But, as I mentioned to rondo(⬇️), it has much to do with the appearance of impropriety. IF one is a purist and expects nothing less than an uncorrupted/untainted image, gambling IS cheating.
But, the juicers... *sigh*

rondo1 Colorado
03/19/15 8:00 pm

Betting on your team is not cheating.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 4:35 am

Perhaps not, rondo. It does, tho, cast a shadow of impropriety, ESPECIALLY if one bets on their own team AND is in a position to manipulate the game towards a predetermined outcome.
I don't believe Rose did this, but he CAN'T escape that 'shadow'...

MackGray Jiving and Shucking
03/19/15 7:23 pm

Steroid users should be banned. Gamblers allowed in

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/19/15 7:32 pm

It might not be so cut 'n' dried as to your conclusion, because we KNOW 'juicers' are in, and eventually, more'll be inducted. If we're gonna find a way to forgive some, than we need to strike a balance, and THAT's all I'd ask from ANY committee...

MackGray Jiving and Shucking
03/19/15 8:26 pm

Pete Rose should be in the HOF. He bet on his team to win. He wasn't throwing any games to make money. He went out and played his ass off. He owns numerous MLB records and its a travesty he's not recognized for it

MackGray Jiving and Shucking
03/19/15 8:26 pm

He did all this without juice.

gonzoboy Arizona
03/19/15 8:28 pm

We're on the same page, aj...

PyroSadist like my comments follow
03/19/15 6:27 pm

Steroids are a blight on the game...but as bad as they are the one unforgivable sin is betting on the game.

Sorry Pete but if it was up to me you would never get in.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/19/15 7:25 pm

Hey, Pyro! I may not come to the same finality on this, but recognize YOURS is the decision shared by ALL of the highest levels of MLB owners, management, executives, and a majority of players past and present. I may not fully agree, but I respect.

PyroSadist like my comments follow
03/20/15 10:50 am

The purity of the game has forever been sullied by roids. The official position of MLB is really of no interest to me as I think those proven to have used roids should have some sort of annotation to their admission to the HOF

PyroSadist like my comments follow
03/20/15 10:53 am

But as bad as the steroid era was it did not destroy the purity of the game as gambling would.

I don't think PR should ever get in...and certainly not before shoeless Joe Jackson who altho never bet on the game or threw a game is banned from the HOF

PyroSadist like my comments follow
03/20/15 10:55 am

My daughter had a sports history and debate class this school year. I posed the PR question as something they should debate. The teacher (cool dude) asked me my opinion and then I had to defend it. He agreed with me but I still had to prove my case.

gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 11:16 am

Now THAT'S cool, as to the debate! I LOVED my debate class! To your points, they are certainly compelling and I understand them as your PERSONAL positions, which I FULLY understand and again, respect. STILL, I believe if one player who juiced...

gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 11:17 am

...makes it to the hallowed HoF with an "annotation", then it provides the precedent to allow an absolute icon of the game in PR, ALSO with an "annotation". I firmly believe that PED's affect game outcomes much more, and for MANY more games, than...

gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 11:17 am

...gambling EVER did. There seems inequity in the meting of justice, and I'd like to see that balanced. I'd be fine to see those who juiced literally removed, OR an annotated PR allowed. I'm NOT trying to sway you, and we will agree to disagree.😀

PyroSadist like my comments follow
03/20/15 11:24 am

I would prefer that those who used peds be banned too...however some of the banned substances were allowed at some point (or at least not specifically banned) Even Babe Ruth admitted to using (primitive) steroids.

PyroSadist like my comments follow
03/20/15 11:28 am

Mark Mcgwire admitted to used what at the time was a non banned substance (he has since backtracked on that)

So where do you draw the line? If it wasn't banned at the time of the use but later was banned does he still get in?

Gambling is worse

gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 12:08 pm

I've also been of the mindset that they SHOULD be allowed. In fact, required. Let's see how fully juiced TEAMS play against each other! MLB, gladiatorialized! (...that is NOT a word!)

It sure would be interesting, to go back to the EXACT games...

gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 12:09 pm

...PR bet on, and deconstruct EVERY decision made, from well before game time, thru final out. I'd be curious to see how moment-by-moment managerial tinkering affected game outcomes, every box score. Is betting on and fixing a game THE SAME THING??

PyroSadist like my comments follow
03/20/15 12:18 pm

I disagree (shocking I know) but it would be wrong to force a young ball player with natural talent to take drugs that may enhance his ability at the cost of possibly shaving a few years off his life. Just look at what happens to Lyle Alzato

gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 12:31 pm

Oh Pyro, no, I only offered that as a thought that's crossed my mind. If they actually did that, I'd be mortified, and THAT would be the end of MLB, and the HoF as we know it. Those are the types of thoughts one conjures, when faith in an institution

gonzoboy Arizona
03/20/15 12:31 pm

...starts slipping, as we'd watch the steady bombardment of ESPNews segments on cheaters, and their eternal denials. I thought Ryan Braun's denials were bad. With ARod, there's NO close 2nd! No Pyro, I'd be shocked if you DIDN'T disagree! Yikes!

commonman1 Peace
03/19/15 3:15 pm

I don't think you can compare the two. Rose said the never bet on his team when he was manager. How do you compare that to performing enhancing drug that gives an advantage to a player.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/19/15 7:19 pm

common, this is my same question. I'd venture out far enough to say you CAN'T compare the two. I have trouble coming to the same conclusion as others that make the connection, but maybe that's why I'm here on SoH, and NOT decidin' people's fate!...

ozzy
03/19/15 7:38 am

Pete rose deserves it as a player. His "cheat" happened when he was a manager.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/19/15 8:54 am

ozzy, that's exactly the way I gravitate!

rickvee Living the dream
03/18/15 3:54 pm

Cheating no. Betting sure.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 4:41 pm

I understand how one could find reason to lean this direction.

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
03/18/15 2:31 pm

No cheaters ever, or it ceases to be America's game.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 2:36 pm

I truly understand how vogue it is, to be totally 'black' or 'white', amongst purists. Yet, as recently as last year, we have a team from Little League being disqualified for fraudulently claiming where the players lived, all the way through the...

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 2:41 pm

...minors, to MLB, with those continuing to use PHD's. They're claims are the only consistency: They weren't aware the substance was banned; they were slipped the drug by their agent/trainer; they're rehabbing an injury, etc., etc.
"America's game"?

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
03/18/15 2:59 pm

True. But when I go to a local Midland Rockhounds (MiLB) game and sing the National Anthem in front of the crowd, It still feels like America's game to me.

At least until Cowboys season starts up again!

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 3:05 pm

dear t, thank you for that 'visual'. As I read your comment, I could 'feel' the patriotic sentiment! Please know, it's not my intent to diminish. I only seek to find A SENSE of clarity in the murky waters of how 'eligibility' is defined/APPLIED...

gonzoboy Arizona
03/19/15 5:11 am

Good grief t, I'm surprised you didn't throw me out on the rails! That would be "Their" (NOT "They're"), and PED's (NOT PHD's!)
Of all the people, YOU are amongst the top of those I'd hope to be grammatically accurate with! Jeeeez, man!... 😤

gonzoboy Arizona
03/19/15 6:11 am

*D'oh!

*My immediate reaction to seeing TODAY's main poll on grammar!😖

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
03/19/15 7:55 am

See, Gonzo? I don't need to correct you. You correct yourself! :^D

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 1:05 pm

For 'juicers', it's too late. They're there. And more will be inducted. The NFL Hall of Fame has CERTAINLY inducted admitted juicers, as well as an infamous 1st Degree murderer. I want Pete Rose in the MLB Hall of Fame. Let's be consistent!

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TierasPet
03/18/15 2:19 pm

I think he should be there as well. I hope he succeeds.

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 2:51 pm

Dearest Tiera, my position is that if there are going to be, AND THERE ARE, folks in these Halls of Fame that dabbled in all manner of performance enhancers WHILE THEY PLAYED, then it seems a bit hypocritical to deny one who's performance was NEVER

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 2:55 pm

...artificially altered DURING HIS PLAYING DAYS. Bear in mind also, that many of these juicers used labs that scientifically, technologically, consciously, and intentionally stayed AHEAD of the means by which they could be detected. They just

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 2:55 pm

...couldn't outrun the mouth of Jose Canseco!

TierasPet
03/18/15 3:31 pm

Gonzo, you had me at Pete Rose. I like the guy.

Your other points are also great. 😉

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 3:36 pm

*Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose, Pete Rose!
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
🌹🌹😍😍🌹🌹😘😘
*<Hmm, maybe I'll change my username!>

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 3:37 pm

Ummm... 😊

TierasPet
03/18/15 4:31 pm

LOL. No, keep your user name. It's quite catchy.

stickman46 NJ
03/18/15 1:03 pm

Rose bet on games he was involved in and should be banned for life. On steroids, when they were predominantly being used there was no specific rule against it, okay. If they used after the rules were implemented, then ban them.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 2:04 pm

I can't disagree, stickman. The ONLY thing I ask is for there to be complete & total consistency. If the committee to ANY Hall is gonna be consistent, then amen. If NOT, than don't feign outrage against one infraction while placing "*" on others.

stickman46 NJ
03/18/15 2:35 pm

I agree and the cutoff date should be 2004-2005. I laugh at 2007 Red Sox because 7 members had career years which is impossible. This implies to me something is fishy.

AbandonedAccnt Not here.
03/18/15 12:59 pm

I say no cheats. The very dignity of the game is compromised through cheating and it rightly deserves zero tolerance.

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gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 1:56 pm

I know Oke, and in spite of my comment above, I agree. But, precedent is established. So, either kick all the bums outta the Hall, or they continue to do what they WILL CONTINUE TO DO.
If they allow Barry Bonds, dammit, how do you keep Rose out???

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 3:14 pm

Okie, having completed the political quotient test, I see more distinctly the nuanced separation of our 'dots', based on our expressed opinions! We are close in many ways, with the occasional full overlaps.

But still... close!

AbandonedAccnt Not here.
03/18/15 3:23 pm

We be all nuanced and crap. 😃

gonzoboy Arizona
03/18/15 3:25 pm

...💩