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W0rdshark Vermont
12/10/11 7:22 am

mr.man—whatever fake odds you care to make up, bear in mind how many stars are out there

mr.man Iowa
12/10/11 6:19 am

I'm sorry for you atheists. But god has to exist. Earth is what a 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 chance I kinda think u need a God

emsies Seattle
12/09/11 12:23 am

Oh, and please feel free to exercise your first amendment rights, which do not include obscenities or fighting words. In other words: Be courteous. We're all human beings here.

emsies Seattle
12/09/11 12:19 am

The correlation that Christianity has with Republican voters is interesting.
Why can't we all just get along, agree to disagree? And why does everyone hate Islam? I think Islam is beautiful and fascinating, and I'm not even Muslim!

ashley North Carolina
12/08/11 10:55 pm

"to the way it was in the bush era".... idiotic statement seeing as he out us into this mess, Clinton left bush with a surplus, bush left Obama with a huge deficit, yet somehow republicans blame it on Obama? right... ps, separation of church and state.


12/07/11 6:38 pm

Church makes me feel good. :) 

jjrex Illinois
12/07/11 2:09 pm

Knowing God is knowing peace love and happiness! Amen!

W0rdshark Vermont
12/06/11 2:32 pm

Austrian, if you have responded to my latest argument, I am not seeing you and must have ignored you. Please email me.

TopsQueen Oregon Coast
12/06/11 8:29 am

I know becoming a Christian really changed me. Being born again is a true experience. I also very spiritual non Christians who are content and happy who love God.

jimjim44
12/06/11 8:18 am

There is a separation of church and state so saying that believing in god would make the country better is absolutely absurd and ignorant

TheAntiLib Putnam County, NY
12/05/11 9:22 pm

Dems need more God in their lives! Maybe this country would get back on track... To the way it was during the Bush era.


12/05/11 3:50 pm

@s.s.dolphi What's so funny about Democrats? Is it because they have a lower Christian percentage? We do have the freedom of religion given to us by the First Amendment.

Coke
12/05/11 2:18 pm

I tend not to believe in myth
S

Jzz California
12/05/11 2:21 am

I thank tony for keeping this topic open or so long because now other topics are not hi-jacked by this topic. Thank you from the bottom of my heart tony. keep this topic going for as long as there is soh.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/04/11 5:54 pm

Shoot, the other day I ignored a couple of users by mistake--Austrian and spoiler, if you're commenting, I'm not seeing anything, so email me


12/04/11 12:52 pm

Wow it's hard to think that there are so many comments on this one app.????

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 11:19 pm

Austrian?

By the way, thanks Tony for leaving this poll up for so long. I mean, assuming you did that.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:53 am

Your proof has failed. Claiming objective morality as a basic belief is tantamount to claiming your god as a basic belief, and neither proves a thing.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:53 am

Your proof of god does not work for me, as I do not accept moral objectivism, and you have failed to force me to. So who are you trying to prove god to? Yourself? That's not necessary. Nobody ever claimed you don't believe in a god.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:53 am

All you have succeeded in proving with the premise "objective morality exists" is that you believe it exists. Unless you want to abandon "moral experiences are a reflection of objective morality" as a basic belief and try to find some proof for it?

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:52 am

but I am a moral nihilist, and your attempts at this front have failed.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:52 am

Things like objective morality are significantly harder to force someone to accept. You can threaten me with the consequences of rejecting objective morality ("if you don't accept it, you must be inconsistent or a moral nihilist"),

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:51 am

"you must accept that other minds exist, or else why are you debating with me?"; or, "you must accept that the physical world exists, or else you are arguing with a hallucination." Things like this are what I like to think of as "basic basic beliefs."

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:51 am

You can try to argue someone into accepting a basic belief. This works most easily for things that are prerequisites for the argument even taking place:

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:50 am

that you believe it; and that you cannot prove it. Neither point was in contention.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:50 am

For example, the premise "the physical universe exists" would be fine, as we both accept it as a basic belief. The premise "moral experiences are reflections of objective morality" fails though, because I do not accept it; by using it, you only manage to prove two things:

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:47 am

The problem is, a basic belief only works in an argument if both parties believe it.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:46 am

Look, what you're trying to do is abuse the fact that there are no concrete rules for assigning basic beliefs. Anyone can claim anything as a basic belief. The only two prerequisites are that you believe it, and that you cannot prove it (it doesn't stand on even more basic premises).

W0rdshark Vermont
12/03/11 7:46 am

So I need a defeater to show that your belief of moral experiences being reflections of objective morality is incorrect? So...you don't need to prove this belief, I need to disprove it? This thing you're trying to prove, it doesn't need to be proven?

monkeyy Ohio
12/02/11 10:04 pm

@politicski: again, I disagree. Did you read my comment on november 23rd, 10:20 am??


12/02/11 9:08 pm

Mormons aren't Christians!

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 12:01 pm

There isn't shifting. You need a defeater if you want to show belief in objective moral values and duties, including mine, to be unjustified. And notice I said I never tried to use anyone's experience other than your own to compel YOU to believe. There's no inconsistency. You're just making excuses.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/02/11 7:28 am

So, are you saying that your proof is *my* moral experience? If you "have NEVER tried to use" anyone's experience but mine, then it must be mine. So why must I find a defeater for *your* perception? See, this is that shifting I was talking about.

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 4:33 am

points that I haven't repeatedly refuted, don't bother responding. These arguments are for sincere seekers of truth, not people that will do anything they can to avoid belief in God.

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 4:32 am

And stop constructing straw men. I have NEVER tried to use my moral experience or anyone else's other than your own as evidence that should compel you to believe in God. You've utterly failed to give any defeaters or substantive objections to my arguments. Unless you're going to bring up any valid

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 4:28 am

experience and properly basic beliefs? Without some defeater for my experience, I should take it as indicative of the existence of an objective reality. It works the same way as the five senses do. You haven't even addressed this point.

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 4:26 am

What arguments against it? When I have done this "shifting"? What have I not addressed? Your first 2:01 comment is complete nonsense. This argument I'm using works. Why not use it? Regardless, it doesn't follow from what you said that this is a bad argument. Did you even read what I said about

W0rdshark Vermont
12/02/11 2:02 am

So is your proof one of those options? Is it something else?

W0rdshark Vermont
12/02/11 2:01 am

If it is some hybrid of the two, like, "people experience objective morality," I say this is nothing more than a multiplication of the first argument. Why not just say "people experience a god"?

W0rdshark Vermont
12/02/11 2:01 am

If it is "people have moral experiences," I say that is also poor proof. I see (and you have given) no basis to conclude that people's moral experiences reflect an objective outside source.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/02/11 2:01 am

If it is "I experience objective morality," I say that is poor proof. Otherwise you could just site your "experience" of a god and thus prove your god.

W0rdshark Vermont
12/02/11 2:00 am

What, exactly, is your proof of objective morality? Every time I make an argument against it, you shift to another one and say my argument doesn't apply.

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 12:43 am

What you're asking is like me asking to to prove that the universe didn't just pop into existence 10 seconds ago with the appearance of age. Or me asking you to prove that there are other minds. What don't you understand?

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 12:41 am

You can't derive your belief in the reality of objective moral values and duties from any more basic beliefs. Any premise in an argument for objective moral values and duties would have premises which are less obvious than the fact that I should simply trust my experience without a defeater for it.

austrian Valid Location, Virginia
12/02/11 12:17 am

my experience if you expect me to believe my experience isn't indicative of the existence of objective moral values and duties. I've explained this so many times. It's getting ridiculous that you still don't understand it.