Your 12 year old son approaches you and says he wants to join the Masonic youth organization, DeMolay International. Do you let him?
I think the leadership would be influential and the rites of passage could be the maturity milestones frequently missing in Western Culture.
Anyone ever see the outlines of Masonry? Loyalty mindfucks them into doing evil things or turning a cheek when they see or hear secret ("mystery") subjects discussed.
My child would have no interest in joining such a group.
My grandfather was 32nd degree Mason. Grandma was Eastern Star. I was in Job's Daughters for a few years. No. I absolutely positively would not permit any of my minor children to participate in any form of Masons or any other organization w/secrets.
Esoteric secrets & covert rituals are antithetical to concepts of virtue, integrity, guileless. One does well to be suspicious of declarations of honor requiring surreptitious practices & clandestine codes. Truth is offered freely in light of day.
In my experience.
That's true, I agree completely.
Well stated, Elainastar!! I was also in Job's Daughters. I thought the "spiritual" aspect was bizarre and meaningless, and the secret aspect plain silly. That promotes a sense of superiority without any reason.
Then you ought not let your children play any sport, join any club, work for any business, or have any friends.... All of which have secrets, be they secret plays, trade secrets, or whether Joey likes Cassie....
Okay then. I'll lock my kids in a closet & protect them from the non-esoteric ritual secrets of business, sports & entertainment. (Matching the hyperbolic exaggeration of that reply.)
I would want to learn more about it, we would definitely discuss it at length. As long as we established open communication, and I did not find other things objectionable ...
Anyone care to explain what that is XD
No, that sounds like work for me. They can join their cult bullshit when they're old enough to drive themselves to the circle jerk carnivals or whatever the fuck goes on in there.
I would.u I think it's awesome just as my daughter grows at the age of 11 she will join I.o.r.g (daughters of the Masonic lodge) I grew up it just as I am an eastern star member.
I didn't know you were OES!!
What if she has no interest or doesn't want to
Derek yes. Lol just as my father's before me were masons and mothers before me were oes.
That's wonderful! Daisy doesn't want to join OES because she says it sounds like something from Harry Potter. Haha!
2katz. I will do as my mother done for me. put her into the I.O.R.G (daughters of the Masonic lodge) and if she chooses after being in it that it is not for her then I respect her
and will not make her. it's her choice
it's not at all. I love it. =)
I know that! I would also like my future daughter to be a Rainbow Girl! They're a great group as well!
Derek you're are one of the only people that knows what a rainbow girl is! that's awesome. were you a demolay growing up?
No, I didn't have the pleasure of being a DeMolay. I thought all Masonic bodies required an invitation. It wasn't until late 2010 when I realized that I had to ask. I was made a Master Mason on 4/28/11. One of the best decisions I ever made. :-)
Derek that is awesome =)
I think it's awesome that you're OES! :-)
in our next good oil days (community service project from our chapter open to the Masonic lodge and public) you and Daisy will have to come, maybe we can get her to see some of the benefits from it and get her interested in being an OES =)
Maybe! Let me know when and where!
It all depends on where you stand, the response would vary depending on the individual. Masons or people who are familiar with masonry would probably not have a problem with it. Otherwise you would want look into it before making a decision.
Sure, I'd be good for him.
Jeez Derek, I just saw the hate certain users were spewing below. I'm sorry some people can be so intolerant.
I'm used to it.... Most of the time I find it hilarious... I've had someone see my ring and call me a Satan worshipper.
Lol I can see how it can be funny
I knew a couple of retards in DeMolay. I also know that I like scouts. As long as I participated I wouldnt care because I would know what was going on.
Well that's just slightly uncalled for.
No , I wouldn't let my kid join something that actively perpetuates gender inequality. Plus it sounds a bit cult like.
Would you let your son join a college fraternity? Would you let your daughter join a college sorority?
The reason fraternities and sororities are gender-exclusive is because their members live together. Do you live with your fellow Masons?
Fraternities and Sororities are not about living together. There are dorms for that without Sigma Delta Pi above their door. They build a brotherhood and sisterhood with their members. That's all Freemasonry is. Except it's a fraternity.
No, Droo is right. That, and fraternities were around before colleges included women. They have their roots in being exclusionary and also disproportionately represent perpetrators of sexual violence on college campuses. I wouldn't want my child to
Participate in an organization like that. There isn't really a good reason I see to stay gender exclusive anyway. I've had at least some male roommates for quite some time now, it's pretty uneventful. If it was organized around good values rather
Than sex and sexist (sometimes very harmful) traditions like baiting women with alcohol to persuade them to have sex or hazing if their own members. I think it could be a could thing if they dropped their cultishness and these problems.
It'd depend on the particular sorority or fraternity for me I guess. I don't really support how Freemasons view women, it's insulting. I know not all organizations are like that though.
And how do we "view women." Please enlighten me...
As not suitable to know what goes on within the establishment fully for no reason other than their sex. If this is wrong, correct me. How do you view women?
Ummm... No one who's not a Mason can see what happens in our meetings. This includes men. Only men can be Masons because it's a Brotherhood... I fail to see how you don't get that.
So it is only men? My opinion stands.
Well that's stupid. So you wouldn't let your son join the Boy Scouts either?
I don't see a need for scouts to be divided by gender either, but it bothers be less as they're young kids and scouts are pretty similar for both sexes. I wouldn't be kept in the dark about what exactly goes on for Boy Scouts either, so I'd let him.
We have Job's Daughters and International Order of the Rainbow for Girls for girls 12-21. And we have the Order of the Easter Star for women 21+. I fail to see where your concern is. It seems much ado about nothing.
The fact that you have a completely seperate organization for women and the women can't know what goes on in the main organization are concerning. It's not nothing to me. I can't take an organization seriously that views sex the way you do.
You're ridiculous. Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Freemasonry and Eastern Star. It's no damn different. I don't "view" sex in whatever way you think I do. You just want something to bitch about. I've invested too much time trying to enlighten you, all
of which was wasted on your closed, permanently offended mind. I personally don't care what you would do in this hypothetical. I'll enjoy calling out your hypocrisy in the future.
Wow, someone's defensive. Not everyone worships your organization, get over it. And I'm the offended one lmao
I only somewhat disliked freemasonry before (Boy Scouts doesn't keep secrets from women, the difference), but now I really dislike it. You seem very elitist and quick to jump into insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you. Why have these polls if
You only want one opinion? I think it's pathetic you plan to follow me around looking for hypocrisy too.
Sure. He's twelve, so he can choose to join them if he wants.
As a non practicing Mason, I know that they require a belief in a supreme being and as an atheist, I'm not going to let anyone tell my children that they have to believe in that.
No. I'm not going to let an outside source indoctrinate my child.
What makes you think it's indoctrination?
see above for my response
How did you become a Mason if you're an atheist? Did you lie?
I was not always an atheist.
Well I'm sorry to hear of your lost faith.
It's alright, I'm much happier without the threat of some hell looming over me.
The threat of Hell? Hell is not a threat for me and it shouldn't be for any believer.
Yeah well I don't buy the whole reward/punishment dogma.
Neither do I.
Then why be a believer?
I don't have to believe in a reward/punishment dogma to believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe in God and while I may be a sinner, I repent and am forgiven.
My husband was involved when he was a teen and went on to become a Mason. He really enjoyed it and it is an excellent group.
No. I don't believe in it. We already have church for this purpose. I don't oppose masonry though, in general. I know one very well and he's a very good man.
Geez, sounds like a cult the way you talk about it below.
Why would I do that?
Why not? I read a little about the organization, and it seems alright.
Because DeMolay instills great morals into its members. It is a wonderful organization. Why would you not?
What exactly is full-fledged Freemasonry about?
Is it true that as a woman I could never really know what was going on?
Freemasons have a saying. We make good men great, but we can't make a bad man good. Great men throughout history have been Freemasons including several of our Founding Fathers. We do a lot for our communities.
Yes it's true, but we do have the Order of the Eastern Star which allows women and does the same sorts of things.
Well I wouldn't want my kid involved in an organization that I couldn't know anything about because of my gender.
You can know what they're about, you just can't attend their meetings or rituals. It's a fraternity, not a sorority. That's a pretty petty reason to not let your son join....
No it's not. Why would I involve my 12 year old son in a secret cult that I know nothing about but broad statements *they* issue? How do I know they really teach "great morals?" My morals might be very different from theirs. I don't know what
What kind of influence they'll have on him.
I'll raise my son myself. I don't need a secret society to do that for me :)
Especially since they perform "rituals" and won't tell parents what goes on in those rituals.
Hey, I'm Charles Manson! My followers and I are super moral and are interested in bringing about God's will. We also perform rituals. Can't tell you what
Wow. That's a hateful statement.
the rituals consist of, though. But you should totally let your kids join! It's a good cause! I said so!
It's not hateful. It's simply a fact that us non-Masons can know next to nothing about Freemasonry. I doubt you'd let your kid be involved in it if you weren't already involved and familiar with said rituals and morals.
Why don't you try talking to some Masons, Eastern Stars, or Senior DeMolay's before you go calling it a cult and spouting hateful rhetoric about a wonderful organization?
Sorry if I seemed hateful. That was not my intention. Would you mind telling me a little more about the organization?
As a parent, I wouldn't talk to a member of a secret organization which performs secret rituals and also wants my son to join, and say "Oh, he seems like a nice guy. What the heck? Go on, son!" If that's how you parent, I'm genuinely scared.
It teaches leadership skills and character building through brotherhood, charity, and community service. They have a long list of notable alumni including John Wayne, Walt Disney, Paul Harvey, and many others.
So how is it any different from Boy Scouts?
If that's all you guys do, there shouldn't be anything to hide.
What I don't understand is why they have to be so secretive if they're as purely benevolent as you say.
Ultimately the goal is the same. It's the method by which they learn that is different.
Do they let gay people in? There's a chapter up the road from me and I always wondered what goes on there.
And what method is that?
It's about honor. Masonic secrets are not about some occult knowledge that we keep from the world. It's about being entrusted with something sacred. I know that I can confide in a Brother about anything even if I've never met him before.
We don't care if someone's gay. Just that they're a man of lawful age that declares a belief in a Creator. We don't define who that Creator is. It can be the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all we care.
Do you let people go for just a few sessions? Also the major chapter in the city seems to be invite only but this small chapter I've never met anyone in. Do you just go say something one day or something? I don't mean to be ignorant but I'm curious
Can the creator be Satan?
We don't ask who your God is drooski, so if you want to worship Lucifer, by all means. Hell, if you believe the crap on the Internet, Freemasons worship Satan anyway.
Rotavele, no Masonic Lodge invites members. A man must seek out Masonry for himself. You can't attend meetings unless you are a Mason and even then you may only attend meetings of your Degree.
Ok final question. I've heard about the representation of an umbilical cord and hopefully this isn't just a rumor but just incase its a secret is that true? I heard its to keep silence?
I don't know if it's a secret or if the what it actually is, is a secret but this is a very small town chapter so I'm afraid to go with that there since I'm probably not going to be welcomed very well at first.
I can't force myself to think of anything so it may be a lost cause. Maybe I can think of a personification of the Big Bang. If it's all about honesty and truth then I do not want to lie.
This is an awesome conversation. I'm replying primarily so I can track it through My Comments. I'll go back to lurking now, but you guys know all the secrecy is because they're like Anglo Kabbalist Illuminati who control the world right?
I won't answer any questions regarding our rituals. Don't take that as being an affirmation of your suspicions. I would say the same thing if you asked "is it true you get decapitated an Satan restores your head in the 2nd Degree?" And I would highly
Recommend honesty. If you don't believe in God, then don't petition to join the Lodge. No atheist may become a Mason. If you are trying to personify the Big Bang, then I can't see that as being an honest answer to believing in God.
Well you said creator before. I believe heavily in a lot of religions that rely on energy and such and have symbolic gods for them.
Is it a god or a creator?
I have an uncle that is in the 50 degrees (if I remember correctly, not sure if that's good or bad) but I know that it's really good to go further and do well. Plus it has a lot of benefits that you can pass on to lodge mates if I remember right.
Sorry if I wasn't clear before. By "Creator" I mean more specifically a Supreme Being which would be God. We just don't define which God. So if your heart truly believes that WaluWalu created the earth by farting through his ears 3000 years ago...
Like Wiccan gods
Doesn't Wicca believe that energy from nature creates all life? Or something like that? I don't know... This seems to be pushing a gray area...
No. You choose between several ways. Most use roman or Egyptian gods to represent the energy. Isis for example is love.
They also think if you use certain herbs or plants that symbolically support what it is you need or want you should do a spell. The spell is just your way of attracting the energy and use the law of attraction to bring whatever it is you need or want
And if it works well for you (burning a green candle for money or something like that) and such you write it down and use it again.
I have nothing against masons and respect their beliefs and I assume they have good intentions, but if it conflicts with my beliefs it conflicts with beliefs and do not agree with it for myself. Nothing more nothing less.
I'm not sure to be honest....
The Demolay group is the big chapter in the city. Maybe it's not invite only and that was only a rumor. The guy also lives not far from me. There's a really small lodge in a town next to me but idk what group they're in.
I'd have to look into the organization and so until I obtain information it would be a no
Not if his dad hasn't been invited to be a Mason. We're a package deal.
No man can be invited to be a Mason. A man must ask to become a Mason.
TLaney why aren't you a mason?
Derek, I meant it's no wonder I've never been invited.
Rota - I was waiting to be invited.
ME TOO. Lol. I think everyone is.
Tom, I'm guessing you'd not like the spiritual aspects. In Job's Daughters, it involved a select, elected small group of officers who recited the mystical meanings, numbers and symbols of their "stations" (where each was seated in the center of...
... of a large room. They walked around the room in particular patterns during the meeting while the rest of us merely observed. Election of the princesses, who moved up to eventually become the Honored Queen, was just another popularity contest....
... I was bored by it; never thought it had any useful meaning. I hated the long white cotton robes with purple cords we had to wear. The officers and royalty had white satin robes which were much nicer. I don't recall any community service we did.
... I hope I'm not going to be abducted and never heard from again by one of the "messengers" in the ritual story (somewhat related to the story of Job) for describing this. We had to agree to secrecy but I never saw the point.
:/ it's because they trusted you. It's all about trust and stuff.
Katz, you obviously completely missed the point of Job's Daughters.
Tom, are you wanting to be a Mason?
Derek, I've considered it in the past, but frankly, now that I'm disabled and mostly homebound, I think the time has definitely passed. I haven't been able to even drive for almost seven years with my legal blindness.
Well if you change your mind, let me know! :-)
Derek, then go ahead and enlighten me as to what the point is. Maybe our small town local bethel just failed to convey it. I really did try to get something but it just wasn't there for me.
Thanks, my friend. I just can't see asking my wife to have to drive me to all the meetings, and I'm not sure the Temple is ADA accessible, since it's old. My Grandfather was a Mason, though, and I remember when he died , Mom had to burn his stuff.