Show of HandsShow of Hands

NDAmerican November 10th, 2014 6:04pm

"Social Conservatism is not completely bad. The support for a moral society, law and order, and a strong family unit are great goals to have. As long as these principles are secular."

3 Liked

Comments: Add Comment

TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
11/11/14 12:16 am

I was with you right up to that nonsensical final sentence.

truspec Texas
11/10/14 7:58 pm

This implies social liberalism is opposed to such ideas. They just try to achieve those ideas in a different way

Reply
bethanyq Ess Eff
11/10/14 2:09 pm

If you abstract it out that much, sure. That's basically just a recognition that humans generally deal better with stability than rapid change.

Reply
krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 1:35 pm

I disagree on the point of morality. I would be on board with this statement if it wasn't for that, seeing way too many want to legislate their version on morality over the rest of us.

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 4:41 pm

In purpose though, do you not believe a nation should have a set of moral principles (ie don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't cheat, don't kill, don't commit corruptive business actions).

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 4:52 pm

Not for crimes of consent. I believe adults should have the freedom to engage in activities at their own discretion. Permitting their activities have no victims. Morality is subjective and does vary form person to person and should not be legislated.

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 5:21 pm

To we shouldn't punish stealing, corporate fraud, polluting, discrimination in the workplace, murder, etc?

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 5:29 pm

"Permitting their activities have no victims."

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 5:32 pm

If they committed a crime that has a victim, yes, they should be punished. If say, someone is smoking a joint in their own home, hosting a poker game, or making money through sex then no, they should not face any punishment.

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 6:00 pm

So you do believe in legislating morality. Morality is just deciding what is right and wrong. And murder, corruption, fraud, etc are obviously seen as wrong by the public.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 7:00 pm

LOL, no. Those are only wrong because there is an actual victim. We should only have laws to protect people from each other, not ourselves. Because legislation of morality in the law can become just as tyrannical and predatory as violent offenders.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/10/14 9:52 pm

2/2 tonight krayze

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 10:37 pm

Which is based on morality. The fact is, you believe that if there is a victim involved that makes it wrong. Your individual belief is that when someone murders someone or commits a crime when there is a victim then it's wrong and they should be

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 10:39 pm

Punished. If there was no morality, as in we don't make rules based on what's right and wrong, then regardless of whether there is a victim is irrelevant. Because the action was not wrong.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 11:28 pm

Seeing that we can't come to terms of what is morality, then that enforces what I'm trying to say how morality is subjective. Knowing this, the rule of law should only be used to protect from each other and not punishing people based on feels.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 11:32 pm

For example, in many parts of the world, it is a criminal offense to be gay. This can lead to imprisonment, lashings, or even execution. This is entirely based on one groups morality. I know that's not here, but as used to show subjectiveness.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/10/14 11:35 pm

Here, we imprison our own citizens at terrifying rates. The majority of which had not one victim for their crimes other than potentially themselves. Is this practice of law the morality you speak of?

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/11/14 5:03 am

and this is where you run into so many probs, the word "morality" is used in so many, and often contradictory, ways that it becomes useless. there needs to be terminology that delineates between what each indiv, each group (religious or not) &

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/11/14 5:04 am

society as a whole deems right/wrong. then applying the correct term at the correct time will not undermine the other instances the idea is used.

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 7:15 am

Morality as defined: "principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior."
-"a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society."

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 7:17 am

You believe morals are subjective, everyone has their own set of morality. That's fine. But in the end, your set of morals is what tells you that a crime with a victim is wrong. So by wanting to legislate to prevent this or punish those who violate

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 7:18 am

Your morals you are legislating morality. Morality be definition is your set of values that determine what is right or wrong. You have formulated that a crime with a victim is wrong.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
11/11/14 10:15 am

LOL. WV, sorry bud but we have to agree to disagree on this. It happens.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/11/14 10:25 am

WV, & that's why we need to differentiate between those "morals" we agree to *as a society* (aka the laws) & those that are specific to either individuals or individual groups. to legis according to either of the latter is against our core beliefs.

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 10:35 am

I gave you the definition of morality. Regardless of whether it's subjective or absolute, we all want to legislate morality. We view murder as wrong, so we want to outlaw it, we view theft as wrong so we outlaw it, etc. And regardless we each

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 10:36 am

Our set of morals to be legislated. For example, drugs, one person may believe drugs are immoral and therefore want to ban them, while others either believe it is immoral to restrict ones personal choice so they support legalizing the use of drugs.

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 10:39 am

Either way we support legislating morality. Laws are just physical decrees that society puts in place to prevent and punish wrong actions. Without morality, there is no basis for laws.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/11/14 10:41 am

but you've just illustrated the problem both krayze and I are talking about. regardless of what an indiv or a group thinks/wants in terms of morality, it is what we add a society agrees to follow that should be legislated. if there is disagreement,

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/11/14 10:42 am

then imo we should err on the side of more freedom, not less bec *some* take issue.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/11/14 10:44 am

and to be clear, krayze was very clear about where his issue lies - when the morals of the few are imposed on society, not what we all agree to.

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 10:46 am

Yes, societal morals. What we as a society deem is right and wrong as a whole. That's the basis of basic laws. But it's morality, maybe not of the individual but of society. Even freedom is a element formulated by society as moral. Restricting

NDAmerican Florida
11/11/14 10:46 am

Generally is seen as immoral by a society. So the preservation of freedom is another societal moral.

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 11:12 am

Wait why are independents saying no lol.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/10/14 11:50 am

bec the underlying assumption is that social liberalism doesn't support a moral society (as in doing no harm and trying to do the right thing not in nec a religious way), law and order and strong families - which is completely false.

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 12:27 pm

But that is the sole premise of social conservatism. Literally the building blocks. Strong Family Units, Moral Society, and law and order. Some are based on religion while others are based on secular reasons.

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 12:30 pm

Social liberalism is the belief in equality, civil justice, and social liberties of the individual and that the government has a legitimate role in improving society through healthcare, education, and anti poverty measures. While Social Conservatism

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 12:31 pm

Is based on the premises of tradition, morality, law and order, and the family unit. What I'm saying is that their is nothing wrong with these principles as long as they are secular in nature.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/10/14 12:35 pm

and that's fine and dandy and I agree. however the wording of the poll implies that social liberalism doesn't support those ideals bec those ideals may not be at the foundation of its core mission statement - which is false. the wording is the prob,

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/10/14 12:35 pm

not the sentiment.

NDAmerican Florida
11/10/14 1:25 pm

I was going to try and show how much social conservatives and social liberals agree and why broad labels are bad when in actuality it's just a few issues and different perspectives that separate us.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
11/10/14 2:12 pm

I agree, we are far more alike than not. sometimes it seems like people look for differences purposely. :-/