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HayleyS October 30th, 2014 6:33pm

If a public high school history class is learning about events in world history that are heavily influenced by religion, is it appropriate for the students to be taught a general understanding of said religion?

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persuader
10/31/14 12:11 am

Yes. It is the truth and it is history. Why would one want to lie and leave out the truth?

eight88888888 USA
10/30/14 8:11 pm

in my opinion we should all be learning Islam to better island the culture of 1/4 of the worlds pop. purly for business reasons

jvc1133 61535
10/30/14 6:53 pm

History is magic, welcome it all

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/30/14 5:46 pm

Not just appropriate, but necessary.

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Djsoke
10/30/14 4:54 pm

I'd say it's fine. The students need to know what drives the religion and its followers, knowing why they did what they did.

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TigerShark47 Missouri
10/30/14 4:51 pm

I think so. There are some historical events that may be hard to understand without knowing having a basic understanding of the religions behinds the acts.

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thebarr
10/30/14 4:39 pm

I think that there should be a general high school class called "Comparative Religions", or something like that. It's important for an understanding of world culture and history.

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Krystina Let Freedom Reign
10/30/14 4:02 pm

Maybe. It has to be kept general & accurate to historic facts. This is a real slippery slope. If this is the whole writing about the pillars of Islam thing, then no, not unless they're going to create a similar assignment for Christian, Jewish, etc.

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Rob Be Safe Be Smart
10/30/14 3:07 pm

Of course. It will give incite on said society.

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skinner Jersey City
10/30/14 3:02 pm

Sure, so long as schools are careful to teach equitably about all the "major" religions. For example I enjoyed learning the five pillars of Islam, but we should also learn the equivalent for Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

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Maj Worth Economist
10/30/14 4:02 pm

Pretty much this. There may be classes when you're only studying a specific geography (like South America or something), so that's not quite appropriate, but yeah - I'd expect equal treatment over the course of a high school education.

skinner Jersey City
10/30/14 4:31 pm

I don't mean all at once, but in a world history class if a religion plays a key role in understanding the psyches of the society you're learning about then I think it's appropriate to be taught.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 1:00 pm

Of course, at least enough for them to understand how and why the religions involved contributed to those events.

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 1:06 pm

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 1:34 pm

No, that would be the fundamental equivalent of writing an essay on five things Christians consider essential to their faith. Adhering to the Ten Commandments may be one of those, but the details, a list of the "commandments", would be unnecessary.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 1:34 pm

The Five Pillars are not an equivalent to the Ten Commandments at all. In fact, the parallel would be:
quran.com/6/151

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 1:34 pm

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 1:38 pm

That link is just the start, the passage continues:
quran.com/6/151-153

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 1:42 pm

I'm not sure people who actually know would agree with you:

www.islamreligion.com/articles/5114/viewall/

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 1:51 pm

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 2:01 pm

The Ten Commandments aren't equivalent to the "pillars" of Christianity either. That assignment would refer to the basic beliefs, not the details of the dogma. What some would call the "foundation" of a religion, others would call "pillars".

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 2:13 pm

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 3:04 pm

I do, and I can tell you what they are. The point is that they address basic beliefs. They are comparable to the requirement a Christian believe in God (the same one, by the way) and the Jesus, the tithing required by some denominations, etc.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 3:04 pm

I feel like teaching the commandments is way over the line, but teaching the basic beliefs, and especially the differences between them is necessary. How do you teach our history without teaching at least a little bit about the Mormon faith?

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 3:44 pm

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bMyComrade Beantown
10/30/14 3:48 pm

There is very little history without religion. You can learn the facts and details without being asked to believe them. I teach the Protestant Reformation at a Catholic school, you can teach all sides academically and not cross boundaries

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 3:51 pm

I was thinking of the history of the U.S., not the European exodus, but sure, that too. If you take religion out of history you're left with big gaps and questions. Everyone, even kids, knows the difference between teaching it and preaching it.

thebarr
10/30/14 4:40 pm

What's wrong with teaching the Ten Commandments, especially in historical and cultural context?

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/30/14 5:30 pm

Because there isn't a historical tie, and the only cultural tie is the doctrine of that religion. At that point you'd be teaching religion, which would be great as a sociology elective comparing them, but it isn't the history everyone needs to take.

bMyComrade Beantown
10/31/14 11:42 am

You can learn that there are 10 commandments, but being asked to memorize them is more detail than is necessary for a conceptual historical understanding.

thebarr
10/31/14 12:01 pm

Not really. And it doesn't violate the establishment clause if you learn about other major religions.

bMyComrade Beantown
10/31/14 12:29 pm

Tell me where I said that. I said it's more detail than needed. Our classes our too detailed oriented already, at the expense of conceptual and thematic based historical comprehension. The impact of religion trumps it's details.

thebarr
10/31/14 12:33 pm

I'm approaching it from a Constitutional standpoint. You seem to think that it's a bad idea on other grounds. That's fine, I'm not really getting into that argument. It's not unconstitutional, that's my only point.

bMyComrade Beantown
10/31/14 3:37 pm

I think teaching about the religions is necessary. It is an integral part of my curriculum, especially when I taught world history. But in all things, I avoid the small memorized details in favor of better conceptual understandings.

Rotavele Alabama
10/30/14 12:39 pm

... And then Jesus said unto him "Mr. satanachav, tear down this wall!"

No offense intended toward anyone btw.

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/30/14 11:51 am

Of course. Not just appropriate, in fact; I'd argue that it's an integral piece of the history lesson.

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drunk ill be Bach
10/30/14 11:39 am

This is why a lot of schools call it "social studies" instead of history.

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krayzewolf New Hampshire
10/30/14 11:37 am

I have a hard time with this question. On one hand, it's a good idea to understand other people's thinking. On the other hand I see religion in the same light as nothing more than mythology and think it as a waste of time.

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HayleyS looking up.
10/30/14 11:40 am

But if x group of people is fighting y group of people because of their religious conflict, wouldn't the fullest understanding of the war require an understanding of what each side believes? Regardless of truth, they still have an impact.

Cole12 ...
10/30/14 11:42 am

In my 6th grade social studies class we learned about Roman and Greek mythology, and it was a great time. Just because religion is BS doesn't mean it's not worth studying.

HayleyS looking up.
10/30/14 11:43 am

Yeah we studied greek mythology my freshman year of high school. It is interesting and provides insight on that society.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
10/30/14 11:47 am

I'm still on the fence. At the same time, I honestly don't care about any religions or myths. Plus I don't have a dog in this fight as I'm not having kids and don't need to worry about it. So I'll just continue to be a spectator for this argument. ;)

thebarr
10/30/14 4:43 pm

I believe that religion (or certain parts of it) are true. But that's actually irrelevant to this debate. Religion is culturally relevant, whether true or mythology, and it should be taught in its cultural context.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
10/30/14 5:07 pm

What about Jediism then. This is recognized as an actual religion. Will we start having to teach about how the Jedi prophet George Lucas brought us the truth of The Force?

Teach the controversy!

thebarr
10/30/14 5:11 pm

If it's culturally relevant. I saw Star Wars in class. Jedism itself is of minimal relevance outside of the movies.

citethesource Socialist and Atheist
10/30/14 5:51 pm

Krayze, you need to have an understanding of religion to understand history.

krayzewolf New Hampshire
10/30/14 7:29 pm

Ya, but like I said, I have no dog in this fight. If it were to go up for vote here, I'd ask friends who have kids how'd they want me to vote seeing I genuinely don't care. But that's not going to stop me from sitting here LOL'ing at religions. ;)

WildRice With a side of sass
10/30/14 11:36 am

You're poking the nema bear haha

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 12:49 pm

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 12:56 pm

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Cole12 ...
10/30/14 11:36 am

Yes. And teaching *about* religion is not a violation of the 1st Amendment, as some people seem to think.

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bethanyq Ess Eff
10/30/14 11:52 am

I don't believe I have heard people actually make this argument. People actually think that??

Cole12 ...
10/30/14 12:02 pm

Yep, unfortunately. Check out the first thread on the poll I posted a few hours ago.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 12:47 pm

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 12:48 pm

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bethanyq Ess Eff
10/30/14 1:10 pm

Teaching about religion does not violate the first amendment. Period.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 1:15 pm

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Maj Worth Economist
10/30/14 4:12 pm

The pillars of Islam are the things that define what a Muslim is. They're not comparable to the 10 Commandments - they're more like knowing what the Catholic sacraments/ordinances are.

Maj Worth Economist
10/30/14 4:23 pm

If you know that Muslims are monotheistic, call God, "Allah," and believe that Muhammad was a prophet - congratulations! You know the first pillar of Islam!

Maj Worth Economist
10/30/14 4:23 pm

If you know that Muslims pray five times a day, congratulations! You know the second pillar of Islam!

Maj Worth Economist
10/30/14 4:26 pm

If you know that Muslims pay a percentage of their income to charity (it's 2.5%), fast during Ramadan, and [try to] make a pilgrimage to Mecca at last once in their lives... Congratulations! You know the other three pillars. Everyone's a Muslim now!

thebarr
10/30/14 4:44 pm

My head wouldn't explode about the Ten Commandments. In fact, I think it's a great idea!

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/30/14 5:19 pm

Educate yourself, Nema. Here's just one case delineating the difference between violations of the establishment clause and legitimate instruction relating to a religion: caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=449&invol=39

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/30/14 5:20 pm

There's one paragraph in particular you should read. I believe it's the seventh full paragraph. Here's the most important quote:

"This is not a case in which the Ten Commandments are integrated into the school curriculum, where the Bible may

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/30/14 5:20 pm

constitutionally be used in an appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative religion, or the like."

In short, you're wrong. You might not like how the constitution works, but them's the rules. If you'd prefer the law mandated more

bethanyq Ess Eff
10/30/14 5:21 pm

ignorance in public schools, you're free to advocate to change it.

TheCameron UCF
10/30/14 11:35 am

It's not like they'll remember anyway.

kougrakub
10/30/14 11:36 am

Oof.